For those who deny the Most Holy Trinity!

[theefaith]

You didn't read the scripture carefully, it states we should not worship, or bow down, as in either/or but Catholics do bow down. See the following scripture and know it has covered every argument you have presented. IOW, the scripture left you no way to make bowing down to anything ok to do.



Now? What do you mean? You never answered mine, have you or have you not ever bowed down to an image? Now for your question:

Images are not allowed. Read the scripture again where it states no "likeness" of "anything". IOW, we are to bow to nothing. An image is a likeness and no likeness is allowed. Again, the bible has that covered, and was very careful to refute what you say you are allowed to do because Gods word expected this argument.

4Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: 5Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; 6And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

Worship / graven images

Images are not forbidden, such as the cherubim on the ark of the covenant , and the bronze serpent, are not forbidden but even commanded, graven or worshiped images are forbidden such as the golden calf!

Bowing down or posture does not equal worship or adoration!

Worship requires intent!
You must have the intent to worship God properly!

Worship requires intent, offering of sacrifice, a ordained priesthood, adoration, reparation, thanksgiving, and petition!

Bowing or posture does not equal worship!

Genesis 23:12
And Abraham bowed down himself before the people of the land.

Genesis 42:6
And Joseph was the governor over the land, and he it was that sold to all the people of the land: and Joseph's brethren came, and bowed down themselves before him with their faces to the earth.

Bowing a sign of obedience!

Genesis 43:28
And they answered, Thy servant our father is in good health, he is yet alive. And they bowed down their heads, and made obeisance.

1 Kings 1:53
So king Solomon sent, and they brought him down from the altar. And he came and bowed himself to king Solomon: and Solomon said unto him, Go to thine house.

1 Kings 2:19
Bathsheba therefore went unto king Solomon, to speak unto him for Adonijah. And the king rose up to meet her, and bowed himself unto her


If you kneel next to your bed to say your prayers at night are you worshiping your bed? No!

I have been a catholic all my life and I’m 60 and I have never worshiped Mary or the saints or a statute!

Reverence, veneration, love and devotion yes! Worship no!

Imitation of the the life and virtues of the saints! Yes a husband and father should imitate Saint Joseph, his life of godliness and virtue, patience and obedience and faithfulness! The family should imitate the holy family of Nazareth!

 

[theefaith]

Good question. Some do, but the answers they get is, dont question Divine authority. Magisterium, I mean Mother knows best.

the scripture is God breathed right?

so are the apostles

Jn 20:21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.

22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

 

[theefaith]

No.
No.
No.

queen Ester is a type of Mary
Both are all fair
Both found favor with the king
Both received half the kingdom
Mary the kingdom of grace and mercy

Lk 1:28 Hail Mary FULL of grace!!!

 

[theefaith]

No.
No.
No.

Is Jesus Christ our salvation?

 

[TheslightestID]

Good question. Some do, but the answers they get is, dont question Divine authority. Magisterium, I mean Mother knows best.

Sad to see people so blind.

 

[TheslightestID]

Worship requires intent!

Then you bow to them for no reason? Please.

Images are not forbidden

Aren't forbidden for what? You left off the "bow down" part.

As I already showed you, bowing to an image of any kind IS forbidden because an image is a "likeness".

4Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any LIKENESS of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:

Now, lets see what a "likeness" is:

likeness
noun
1. resemblance, similarity, correspondence, affinity, similitude These stories have a startling likeness to one another.
2. portrait, study, picture, model, image, photograph, copy, counterpart, representation, reproduction, replica, depiction, facsimile, effigy, delineation The museum displays wax likenesses of every US president.
3. appearance, form, guise, semblance a disservice in the likeness of a favour
Collins Thesaurus of the English Language – Complete and Unabridged 2nd Edition. 2002 © HarperCollins

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Thesaurus / likeness
SEE DEFINITION OF likeness

• depiction
• effigy
• facsimile
• image
• photograph
• portrait
• replica
• reproduction
• Xerox
• affinity
• agreement
• alikeness
• analogy
• appearance
• carbon
• clone
• comparison
• conformity
• copy
• counterpart
• delineation
• ditto
• double
• equality
• equivalence
• form
• guise
• identicalness
• identity
• model
• parallelism
• photocopy
• picture
• representation
• resemblance
• sameness
• semblance
• similarity
• simile
• similitude
• study
• uniformity
• analogousness
• comparableness
• dead ringer
• knock-off

So, you now see they lied to you, a likeness is an image and bowing to an image is forbidden

 

[theefaith]

Then you bow to them for no reason? Please.



Aren't forbidden for what? You left off the "bow down" part.

As I already showed you, bowing to an image of any kind IS forbidden because an image is a "likeness".

4Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any LIKENESS of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:

Now, lets see what a "likeness" is:

likeness
noun
1. resemblance, similarity, correspondence, affinity, similitude These stories have a startling likeness to one another.
2. portrait, study, picture, model, image, photograph, copy, counterpart, representation, reproduction, replica, depiction, facsimile, effigy, delineation The museum displays wax likenesses of every US president.
3. appearance, form, guise, semblance a disservice in the likeness of a favour
Collins Thesaurus of the English Language – Complete and Unabridged 2nd Edition. 2002 © HarperCollins

• 
  THESAURUS.COM
• • MEANINGS
  • WORD GAMES
  • LEARN
  • WRITING
  • WORD OF THE DAY

SYNONYMS
Search
Thesaurus / likeness
SEE DEFINITION OF likeness

• depiction
• effigy
• facsimile
• image
• photograph
• portrait
• replica
• reproduction
• Xerox
• affinity
• agreement
• alikeness
• analogy
• appearance
• carbon
• clone
• comparison
• conformity
• copy
• counterpart
• delineation
• ditto
• double
• equality
• equivalence
• form
• guise
• identicalness
• identity
• model
• parallelism
• photocopy
• picture
• representation
• resemblance
• sameness
• semblance
• similarity
• simile
• similitude
• study
• uniformity
• analogousness
• comparableness
• dead ringer
• knock-off

So, you now see they lied to you, a likeness is an image and bowing to an image is forbidden

does this theory of yours include kneeling in front of an image?

 

[TheslightestID]

does this theory of yours include kneeling in front of an image?

Are you calling the word of God Theory? Mine is only an explanation of what the bible is very clear on.

I tell you what, you go ahead and kneel to your likenesses, and see what God thinks of that on judgment day. There are no work arounds for this, at least none that you will get past God.

 

[theefaith]

Then you bow to them for no reason? Please.



Aren't forbidden for what? You left off the "bow down" part.

As I already showed you, bowing to an image of any kind IS forbidden because an image is a "likeness".

4Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any LIKENESS of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:

Now, lets see what a "likeness" is:

likeness
noun
1. resemblance, similarity, correspondence, affinity, similitude These stories have a startling likeness to one another.
2. portrait, study, picture, model, image, photograph, copy, counterpart, representation, reproduction, replica, depiction, facsimile, effigy, delineation The museum displays wax likenesses of every US president.
3. appearance, form, guise, semblance a disservice in the likeness of a favour
Collins Thesaurus of the English Language – Complete and Unabridged 2nd Edition. 2002 © HarperCollins

• 
  THESAURUS.COM
• • MEANINGS
  • WORD GAMES
  • LEARN
  • WRITING
  • WORD OF THE DAY

SYNONYMS
Search
Thesaurus / likeness
SEE DEFINITION OF likeness

• depiction
• effigy
• facsimile
• image
• photograph
• portrait
• replica
• reproduction
• Xerox
• affinity
• agreement
• alikeness
• analogy
• appearance
• carbon
• clone
• comparison
• conformity
• copy
• counterpart
• delineation
• ditto
• double
• equality
• equivalence
• form
• guise
• identicalness
• identity
• model
• parallelism
• photocopy
• picture
• representation
• resemblance
• sameness
• semblance
• similarity
• simile
• similitude
• study
• uniformity
• analogousness
• comparableness
• dead ringer
• knock-off

So, you now see they lied to you, a likeness is an image and bowing to an image is forbidden

you never answered? Why are images ok and graven images forbidden???

 

[theefaith]

Are you calling the word of God Theory? Mine is only an explanation of what the bible is very clear on.

I tell you what, you go ahead and kneel to your likenesses, and see what God thinks of that on judgment day. There are no work arounds for this, at least none that you will get past God.

you never answered? Why are images ok and graven images forbidden???

 

[TheslightestID]

you never answered? Why are images ok and graven images forbidden???

Images are not ok. Read post 126, please.

 

[theefaith]

Images are not ok. Read post 126, please.

Images are not forbidden, such as the cherubim on the ark of the covenant exod 25:18 and the bronze serpent, num. 21:9 and Jn 3:14 are not forbidden but even commanded, graven or worshiped images are forbidden such as the golden calf!

why does God command them?

 

[TheslightestID]

Images are not forbidden, such as the cherubim on the ark of the covenant exod 25:18 and the bronze serpent, num. 21:9 and Jn 3:14 are not forbidden but even commanded, graven or worshiped images are forbidden such as the golden calf!

why does God command them?

Did they bow to those cherubum? Of course not, and you know that, yet you try to sneak it in there as you did, in order to add confusion, just as satan might....do you not understand the ramifications of that?

I showed you with scripture that imagaes are forbidden, you did not argue it because you could not argue it as it is right there in the bible. So you are saying you do not beliveve the bible. IOW, you believe the men of Catholicism over the word of God, something that is very dangerous for you.

I've done all I could for you, so I now leave you in your delusion.

 

[WaterSong]

Hi WaterSong, I'm just curious. If I read you posts correctly, you seemed to denounce the trinity, and yet, several times you said that 'Jesus was God'? My first assumption is that that would make you modalist?
Again, nothing more than curious, as I find it pleasing to hear Christians disparage the doctrine of the trinity.
I am neither trinitarian nor modalist, I only accept the Father as divine, and no other being in the entire universe, but Him, is God.

I don't disparage the trinity. Rather, I accept its history as for being added into scripture over a thousand years after the last apostle died.
Jesus was God in flesh. Fully human, because God created the first people from himself and breathed into Adam's nostrils and he became a living soul. And all humans subsequent to that are of God, from God, and are alive with his God breathed soul within them.
Jesus was also channeling the divine. I say channel because were he fully God he would not be able to fully form in that limited mortal trappings of flesh and bone.
Jesus himself said, I and my father are one. One. Not two.
I've been accused of being Modalist before by people who don't hold to Modalism as a positive. I don't claim that title myself. I just accept what God told me in the OT and, being he does not change, know he didn't suddenly split into three separate and distinct person in the New.
Deuteronomy 6:4
“Hear, O Israel! The Lord is our God, the Lord is one!"

Source: 13 Bible verses about God Is One

 

[DNB]

My point is this. God gave His only begotten Son. From the language and the context of scripture I believe the Father had a Son to give. And that Son agreed to the deal before the foundations of the earth were laid.
KJV 1 John 1:1-3
1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us
3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

Not from the language and context of Scripture, Backlit, at best, simply from the language of that verse, and not even the context.
God saved His best for last, neither the Garden of Eden, nor the Abrahamic covenant, nor Mosaic Law was God's intention for creation from the beginning, but that his precedential and pre-eminent, and first-born of, creation, be the head of all God's work.
So, your context is wrong in John 1, and God, fundamentally and intrinsically speaking, cannot propagate Himself in any manner whatsoever, obviously. There cannot be two omnipresent, all powerful entities, in or outside the universe. That would be redundant and confused - nothing to differentiate in ontology nor functionality. God does not mutate in any manner.
Don't exegete the text in a hyper-literal, and shallow manner.

 

[DNB]

I don't disparage the trinity. Rather, I accept its history as for being added into scripture over a thousand years after the last apostle died.
Jesus was God in flesh. Fully human, because God created the first people from himself and breathed into Adam's nostrils and he became a living soul. And all humans subsequent to that are of God, from God, and are alive with his God breathed soul within them.
Jesus was also channeling the divine. I say channel because were he fully God he would not be able to fully form in that limited mortal trappings of flesh and bone.
Jesus himself said, I and my father are one. One. Not two.
I've been accused of being Modalist before by people who don't hold to Modalism as a positive. I don't claim that title myself. I just accept what God told me in the OT and, being he does not change, know he didn't suddenly split into three separate and distinct person in the New.
Deuteronomy 6:4
“Hear, O Israel! The Lord is our God, the Lord is one!"

Source: 13 Bible verses about God Is One

Interesting, I can't seem to put a label on what you just defined, as I perceived a bit of ambiguity - Jesus is God, but is that in the way that you said that we all have a part of God within us?
Either way, no worries WaterSong, I won't belabour the issue.
Thank you for your definition and clarity on the issue (excuse me if I'm not entirely clear on what you said).

 

[WaterSong]

Interesting, I can't seem to put a label on what you just defined, as I perceived a bit of ambiguity - Jesus is God, but is that in the way that you said that we all have a part of God within us?
Either way, no worries WaterSong, I won't belabour the issue.
Thank you for your definition and clarity on the issue (excuse me if I'm not entirely clear on what you said).

No ambiguity at all in my beliefs. All derived from scripture.

Colossians 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation,
16 for all things in heaven and on earth were created in him—all things, whether visible or invisible, whether thrones or dominions, whether principalities or powers—all things were created through him and for him.
17 He himself is before all things and all things are held together in him.
18 He is the head of the body, the church, as well as the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that he himself may become first in all things.

‘For in him we live and move and have our being. As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are his offspring.’ Acts 17:28

Ephesians 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

 

[WaterSong]

1st then tell me what is the new covenant church founded by Christ on Peter and the apostles?

2nd examples of things contrary to what Christ taught? The teaches “thee faith” eph 4:5 Jude 1:3 matt 28:19

The first church of Jesus was established by God not mortals. On the day of Pentecost. See also, Acts 10.

With a reference to Biblical Archeology we have this also: What Is the Church of the Apostles? Why Is Biblical Archaeology Important?

Meanwhile, what is today called the Catholic church, or the Roman Catholic Church, was established in true history beginning in 313A.D. with the conversion of Constantine. In AD 325, Constantine convened the First Council of Nicaea in order to unite those in the faith under one creed.

 

[theefaith]

The first church of Jesus was established by God not mortals. On the day of Pentecost. See also, Acts 10.

With a reference to Biblical Archeology we have this also: What Is the Church of the Apostles? Why Is Biblical Archaeology Important?

Meanwhile, what is today called the Catholic church, or the Roman Catholic Church, was established in true history beginning in 313A.D. with the conversion of Constantine. In AD 325, Constantine convened the First Council of Nicaea in order to unite those in the faith under one creed.

so Constantine created the Catholic Church at the council of Nicaea?

 

[DNB]

No ambiguity at all in my beliefs. All derived from scripture.

Colossians 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation,
16 for all things in heaven and on earth were created in him—all things, whether visible or invisible, whether thrones or dominions, whether principalities or powers—all things were created through him and for him.
17 He himself is before all things and all things are held together in him.
18 He is the head of the body, the church, as well as the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that he himself may become first in all things.

‘For in him we live and move and have our being. As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are his offspring.’ Acts 17:28

Ephesians 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

No, I didn't mean ambiguity in your understanding, but just in the way that I derived it from your explanation. Again, it may just be me not following correctly?
But, I believe that one thing is clear, you believe that Jesus is God, but not in the same way that all other humans are created in the Father's image. You believe that Jesus is divine, and thus, omniscient, omnipresent and able to create from nothing, but other humans are none of these. Humans have a spiritual dimension to them (unlike any other creature), which is the image of God, but they are not any form of deity, but Jesus is deity.