Well imo Johann used a blunt nail and the top is already coming off. So you have no direct input into it then...ok
There's a Japanese saying.." The nail that's stands out gets hammered down"
I haven't even started yet.
J.
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Well imo Johann used a blunt nail and the top is already coming off. So you have no direct input into it then...ok
Many of them know not what they do.More like twisting and perverting plain, simple scriptures, I have seen too many debates in my lifetime and we have wolves here in sheep's clothing.
J.
No, not all trinitarians. I think there are likely more versions of the trinity than they're are versions of "I did it my way".Hmmm... All Trinitarians? Just asking. Silly, I guess. ¿
(Wow, there's just no way to get into this without getting messy, is there?¿)
The questions I'm asking J are really rhetorical. I'm hoping f2f and company will actually look at the issues and questions with some biblical literacy. I mean, I asked f2f who is the individual referenced in Genesis 18:1, the scripture names the individual, the LORD, and f2f says angel??!?!! Unless @face2face has some very good reasoning to explain that, I would say it's cognitive dissonance. And he accuses you (not me because I'm not your ordinary garden type trinitarian) of looking at scripture with preconceived bias?
Of course.
My difficulty lies with your claim that Christ's "non-pre-existence" should be considered a foregone conclusion by anyone within earshot of you. Seems a bit presumptuous..
Revelation 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,I am waiting for a NT example of Jesus representing himself as an angel.
Take a good hard look at my entire post and tell me that you replied with true intellectual integrity.Read correctly.
The context of John 17:5 is a far cry from Christ being very God (Trinitarian formula not in view), but as you said, you're not out to prove that (yet)! You will note the context shows Jesus' power is derived by God, not innate, as per John 17:2.
Out of interest, would you also say the same of Jeremiah? Jeremiah 1:5 I mean what you are saying of John 17:5 is actually what God is saying of Jeremiah?
“Before I formed you in your mother’s womb I knew you. Before you were born I set you apart. I appointed you to be a prophet to the nations.”
Out of interest, do you believe Jeremiah pre-existed? If not, why would you not read John 17:5 in the same way you interpret Jeremiah 1:5?
Maybe Romans 4:17 is the true application to these verses?
Maybe Jesus understood his life was 1 Peter 1:11 cmp John 12:41; have you considered how the Christ would speak to his listeners knowing his life held prophetic significance? Also the glory the elect shall enjoy is also prophetic Romans 9:23 cmp 2 Timothy 1:9 but in no way could you or I say we have pre-existed.
Romans 14:5
Take a good hard look at my entire post and tell me that you replied with true intellectual integrity.
Not one single bit.
Right...to mean?Revelation 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
Not exactly representing Himself as an angel per se, but then He never did in the OT either did He. He was and is always the Son of God, Michael if you wish, the Lord of hosts, the Archangel. Not a created angel as the JWs persist with, nor beginning His existence at the incarnation as most in this thread seem to persist with. But, you asked for a NT reference to Jesus representing Himself as an angel, so I got one as close as possible. Archangel.Right...to mean?
Many of them know not what they do.
Just remember Jesus died for wolves, too.
It'll be fine.
Soon the Church Militant will be the Church Triumphant!
Speaking of church, I'm going to lift up all my friends and 'enemies' from here tomorrow in Prayer Before The Throne.
I must admit--I have my favorites--even among 'enemies.'
I generally make friends of enemies eventually.
That's one thing I really love about this place.
I've got a little feud going on over in a "gun laws" thread.
You'll pray for me that I might win him over, won't you?
The easiest way in the world to make friends is to wrestle with them;
then apologize for being contentious.
Works nearly every time. lol
Good day to everyone,
Joh 17:4-5 KJV I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. (5) And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
Does the verse above tells of the existence of the Lord Yehua before his physical birth?
Look at KJV translation of Hosea 2:16:
(Hos 2:16 KJV) And it shall be at that day, saith the LORD, that thou shalt call me Ishi; and shalt call me no more Baali.
Which was translated by ISV as:
(Hos 2:16 ISV) "It will come about at that time," declares the LORD, "that you will address me as 'My husband,' and you will no longer call me 'My master'.
The word 'Ishi' (KJV), translated as 'My husband' by ISV is defined by the passage below which is just two verses away from v16:
Hos 2:19-20 KJV And I will betroth thee unto me for ever; yea, I will betroth thee unto me in righteousness, and in judgment, and in lovingkindness, and in mercies. (20) I will even betroth thee unto me in faithfulness: and thou shalt know the LORD.
Who is speaking in Hosea 2:16-20?
Let's include these passages in our study.
Or the New by the looks of it.Not exactly representing Himself as an angel per se, but then He never did in the OT either did He.
He was and is always the Son of God, Michael if you wish, the Lord of hosts, the Archangel. Not a created angel as the JWs persist with, nor beginning His existence at the incarnation as most in this thread seem to persist with. But, you asked for a NT reference to Jesus representing Himself as an angel, so I got one as close as possible. Archangel.
Robert, no need to teach me brother, and no need to proselyte me to embrace JW' teachings.
Shalom
J.
Did anyone of us actually claim Jesus was an angel???? You telling me to validate something I never proposed.Or the New by the looks of it.
What do you mean.... Also? I don't read anything symbolically unless the text demands it. If literal doesn't cut it, then symbolism is the go to. The woman for example is not Mary. She's the church, God's people. First Israel who longed for their Messiah, then the NT church which was forced into the wilderness through the 1260 years of papal persecutions.Out of interest Brakelite, do you read Revelation 12 literally also?
Sorry I thought you suggested Jesus represented himself as an angel and that he pre-existed, if wrong on both counts we move right along!Did anyone of us actually claim Jesus was an angel???? You telling me to validate something I never proposed.
All good, the way many read their Bibles here I was hoping you didn't believe in literal dragons.What do you mean.... Also? I don't read anything symbolically unless the text demands it. If literal doesn't cut it, then symbolism is the go to. The woman for example is not Mary. She's the church, God's people. First Israel who longed for their Messiah, then the NT church which was forced into the wilderness through the 1260 years of papal persecutions.