For those who think Christ is not God.

[Brakelite]

Sorry I thought you suggested Jesus represented himself as an angel and that he pre-existed, if wrong on both counts we move right along!

Chief over the angels... Literally archangel. But not a created angel liked those under Him. Certainly He pre-existed, the evidence is overwhelming unless of course you have an over powering preconceived bias against such an idea.
Like your president. Biden I believe is commander in chief of the armed forces right? A human version of lord of hosts? But having that position does not make him a soldier. Jesus, or Michael as He was known, is the Lord of hosts... Archangel... But it doesn't make Him Created being.
However, there was throughout OT history a repeating phenomenon spoken of, and touched on with a certain awe and reference by Jewish scholars, of a being with divine attributes and authority, the Angel of His presence... His Angel... The Angel of the Lord...references of which have previously been submitted, but this being, while certainly a Messenger,
angel‭04397 ‭ךְאָלְמֲ‭ mal’ak ‭mal-awk’‭

‭‭from an unused root meaning to despatch as a deputy; n m; [BDB-521b]‭ ‭{See TWOT on 1068 @@ "1068a"}

‭‭AV-angel 111, messenger 98, ambassadors 4, variant 1; 214

‭‭1) messenger, representative
‭‭ 1a) messenger
‭‭ 1b) angel
‭‭ 1c) the theophanic angel

The word angel does not presuppose the nature of the being sent. It denotes his mission and work, not his nature.
The Angel of the Lord was believed by many Jewish scholars to be of a nature above that of others of heavenly origin. This I believe was how the Son manifested Himself to Israel.
KJV Exodus 3:2-5
2 And the Angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.
3 And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt.
4 And when the Lord saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I.
5 And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet; for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground.



‭‭‭‭‭‭‭‭‭‭

 

[face2face]

Chief over the angels...
‭‭‭‭‭‭‭‭‭‭

= Michael correct.

 

[Pearl]

Lets consider a wonderful section which shows the Son could do nothing without the Father.

Of course he couldn't; same as our physical bodies can do nothing without our brains/minds.

 

[Cristo Rei]

There are two things that make me think that Christ is most probably the son of God

1 is that Jesus often spoke to and prayed to God

2 is that God spoke back proclaiming "this is my son"

To fully believe that Jesus is God one has to ignore these biblical facts

 

[BarneyFife]

You have difficulties understanding that Jesus did not pre-exist

I have no such thing. I very much understand that He did pre-exist. And you replied with added questions and with no regard for my questions. Do you believe my interpretation of John 17:5 is internally cogent or are you trying to avoid that question? Context is more useful for proving than disproving. Surely you've run into this hermeneutical principle before. Many, many verses and even sentences and phrases are conclusive entirely apart from context. "Jesus wept." Godhead debates are fruitless. They usually only serve to occupy the time of those who think they can by searching find out the Almighty unto perfection. I'm just here to affirm what we know from Scripture, stir up a little dust, and catch up with friends. Nice to meet you.

 

[BarneyFife]

There are two things that make me think that Christ is most probably the son of God

1 is that Jesus often spoke to and prayed to God

2 is that God spoke back proclaiming "this is my son"

To fully believe that Jesus is God one has to ignore these biblical facts

Sonship in the Bible often has more to do with likeness than with genes and chromosomes.

 

[Jack]

Isaiah 48
12 "Listen to Me, O Jacob, And Israel, My called: I am He, I am the First, I am also the Last. 13 Indeed My hand has laid the foundation of the earth, And My right hand has stretched out the heavens; When I call to them, They stand up together. 14 "All of you, assemble yourselves, and hear! Who among them has declared these things? The LORD loves him; He shall do His pleasure on Babylon, And His arm shall be against the Chaldeans. 15 I, even I, have spoken; Yes, I have called him, I have brought him, and his way will prosper. 16 "Come near to Me, hear this: I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; From the time that it was, I was there. And now the Lord GOD and His Spirit Have sent Me." 17 Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, The Holy One of Israel: "I am the LORD your God, Who teaches you to profit, Who leads you by the way you should go.

Jesus is truly God.

 

[JunChosen]

There are two things that make me think that Christ is most probably the son of God

1 is that Jesus often spoke to and prayed to God

2 is that God spoke back proclaiming "this is my son"

To fully believe that Jesus is God one has to ignore these biblical facts

The Father has also declared in Matthew 17:5, saying: "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him."

HEAR HIM, FOR WHAT?

To God Be The Glory

 

[BarneyFife]

One must ignore Gods word and Christs actions to be certain that Jesus is God

To fully believe that Jesus is God one has to ignore these biblical facts

No. They only have to recognize the concept of paradox. They don't even have to know the word "paradox," in fact. Scripture quite often appears to contradict itself. The way most people solve this dilemma is to come down on one side and simply ignore or spiritualize away the other side. It's as simple as that. And much simpler folk than we have mastered it. They will simply pray and search and pray and search until the matter is made clear. Unless it is one of the secret things which belong unto God. And this, many folk will simply not accept.

 

[face2face]

I have no such thing. I very much understand that He did pre-exist. And you replied with added questions and with no regard for my questions. Do you believe my interpretation of John 17:5 is internally cogent or are you trying to avoid that question? Context is more useful for proving than disproving. Surely you've run into this hermeneutical principle before. Many, many verses and even sentences and phrases are conclusive entirely apart from context. "Jesus wept." Godhead debates are fruitless. They usually only serve to occupy the time of those who think they can by searching find out the Almighty unto perfection. I'm just here to affirm what we know from Scripture, stir up a little dust, and catch up with friends. Nice to meet you.

Nice to meet you also Qoheleth.

By referencing eichon in the first person singular you are assuming Christ "had" in person (literally), this Glory with God before his birth (pre incarnation as you may put it). Does the context of John 17:1 concern you? You speak of the importance of context, which I agree, though you seem to attach "pre-existent" notions to the Lord's words. The context is clearly focusing in on Yahweh's Glory which we all must agree is eternal. So on some level Yahweh's Glory always had Christ in mind i.e for this creation and plan etc. Christ was "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world" (Revelation 13:8; 1 Peter 1:20). Of course no one here would imply Christ was actually slain before the world began (literally speaking), but this event, including the Son's existence was always in the mind of the Father. So the question for us Qoheleth is this; was the glory Jesus had with his Father Yahweh's divine plan and longing for an obedient Son, and if so, could Christ deem this Glory he now seeks (John 17:7 given everything!) to glorify him, provide comfort knowing it's always been with the Father? I agree my interpretation requires faith, spiritual insight and a contextual reading of the Word, but more so, an understanding into Yahweh's master plan, one promised from the beginning, as per 1 Peter 1:11 & John 12:41.

Here is a question for you; could it be possible for Christ to speak of this shared Glory without him being in existence to experience it?

If the Father knew of the Son and delighted in him before he existed (is this any less real?) could Christ speak of this in terms of it being shared because the same Glory which was with the Father was now with the Son and about to raise him from the dead!...the same Glory which will immortalize the Christ and exalt him to the right hand side of the Father?

I am not concerned if you can't, only that I can, and its the richest of blessings to be able to understand the Christ.

 

[face2face]

@Qoheleth

Further to the previous post could you also say the same words as Jesus did in John 17:5 to your God?

Romans 9:23 And what if he is willing to make known the wealth of his glory on the objects of mercy (us) that he (Yahweh) has prepared beforehand for glory—9:24 even us, whom he has called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

Or, would you need to believe that we also pre-existed in a literal sense as you believe Christ did?

Maybe its the past tense which is leading you to a false premise?

Here is another:

2 Timothy 1:9 9 He (Yahweh) has saved us (Qoheleth) and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of His own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time

So again, if God has given you this grace before the beginning of time does that imply (as you do of John 17:5) that you pre-existed your present life, and if you do believe that, can you explain how?

If you were able to convince me I pre-existed wouldn't we have a memory of such things? Where does Christ speak of his pre-existence in any detail? I'm sure you will not find an inspired record to show where Christ speaks of his eternity with the Father.

F2F

 

[face2face]

Let me ask you this...The Masters reference to Abraham, is this Jesus speaking of his pre-eminence or pre-existence? I get it's clear due to your trinitarian beliefs you have adopted the later, but what if you are misinterpreting Christ just as the Jews did, as they rarely (if ever) perceived the Spirit correctly. As I proved with Johann who interpreted one verse as being literal, only to become offended at the thought of drinking Jesus' blood and believed it was clearly metaphoric with another verse. You see Pearl, the point here is whether you are able to open your mind wide enough to consider the possibility.

If you think John 8:58 is Jesus telling his listeners that he is older than Abraham - you miss the point of John 8:56
"Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad." Of course if you are literal with verse 58 then you must also be with verse 56 - do you believe Abraham was alive when Jesus walk the earth?

The context is pre-eminence not pre-existence! (Galatians 3:8) Jesus is trying to get his Jewish listeners to use the same eye of faith as Abraham did i.e "saw" the day of Christ coming by faith.

1 Peter 1:20 applies - foreordained... but not given life until his birth. The pre-eminence is the same as Revelation 13:8 and you know when he was crucified.

There is a lot more to consider here but the above is sufficient for now.

@Pearl did you understand the context here Pearl?

 

[face2face]

@Qoheleth

Your signature refers to going to Heaven? Is this something you believe is the reward of the saints?

 

[MrBebe]

Who do you think?

Good day,

It is my belief that the speaker in Hos 2:16-20 is the Bridegroom mentioned in Ephesians 5:22-33 and in Revelation 19:7-9. Read:
Betrothed to the LORD (Hosea 2:16-20)

 

[Waiting on him]

Good day,

It is my belief that the speaker in Hos 2:16-20 is the Bridegroom mentioned in Ephesians 5:22-33 and in Revelation 19:7-9. Read:
Betrothed to the LORD (Hosea 2:16-20)

The Bride is Gods Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is seen of John gifted too Christ at his baptism.


John 3:29 KJV
[29] He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.


Luke 3:22 KJV
[22] And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

 

[marks]

If you think John 8:58 is Jesus telling his listeners that he is older than Abraham - you miss the point of John 8:56
"Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad." Of course if you are literal with verse 58 then you must also be with verse 56 - do you believe Abraham was alive when Jesus walk the earth?

The context is pre-eminence not pre-existence! (Galatians 3:8) Jesus is trying to get his Jewish listeners to use the same eye of faith as Abraham did i.e "saw" the day of Christ coming by faith.

And yet the statement Jesus made was of pre-existence. Somehow your perception of the context isn't taking into account the actual statement. You can't claim that when Jesus declared that He exists before Abraham did exist, that this doesn't show pre-existence, because of the context, that IS the context. His statement shows at the same time pre-existence and eternal existence. His statement is simple and plain, albeit incredible to many.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Sorry I thought you suggested Jesus represented himself as an angel and that he pre-existed, if wrong on both counts we move right along!


All good, the way many read their Bibles here I was hoping you didn't believe in literal dragons.

Do you know, dinosaurs used to be called dragons?

Much love!

 

[Waiting on him]

And yet the statement Jesus made was of pre-existence. Somehow your perception of the context isn't taking into account the actual statement. You can't claim that when Jesus declared that He exists before Abraham did exist, that this doesn't show pre-existence, because of the context, that IS the context. His statement shows at the same time pre-existence and eternal existence. His statement is simple and plain, albeit incredible to many.

Much love!
Maybe some scripture with someone calling Jesus father would help

 

[Waiting on him]

Do you know, dinosaurs used to be called dragons?

Much love!

Do you know Jesus Called Jews brethren? Would this imply the Jews were the brothers of God

 

[marks]

Maybe some scripture with someone calling Jesus father would help

Would help what?

In this passage, Jesus speaks of both His pre-existence, and His eternal existence. This is spoken as truth by Jesus, so we should accept it as truth, shouldn't we?

Much love!