Free-will vs No Free-will (God knows everything?)

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Behold

Well-Known Member
Apr 11, 2020
15,880
6,567
113
Netanya or Pensacola
Faith
Christian
Country
Israel
Isn't it true that if Jesus didn't know something (the time of his return), then he didn't know everything? I don't get your point here.

Brotther MG and I are not in a conversation about your question.

What we are discussing is.... "There is no verse in the NT, or in the OT, that states that Jesus KNOWS when He will return.

Now, do i believe that Jesus knows when He's coming back?
Yes.
However, there is no verse that supports my belief, and that is why i dont teach it.

We have to use the clear verses in the Bible as our Theology, and we can't let people who make up verses, or re-arrange verses according to what their Cult taught them to believe, become our Theology.

What Heretics do, is... they find one negative or controversial verse that says something, that 40 other verses deny, or explain.
.
And they take that one verse, and teach it as if IT is the other 40.

And the reason they do that is because they dont really study the NT.. THey study commentaries and online sites, and get excited by some nonsense theology/teaching.... and then they run to a forum and post a Thread.

So, when "rightly dividing" verses, we have to give precedence to the Majority that agree with each other, vs, trying to make the bible say, ONE VERSE.

4 Example......You find this happening constantly with people who are deceived = regarding """losing their Salvation.""
There are 3-4 verses they all misuse...., that they misquote or rearrange or misapply them, and that is how they try to "prove" that Salvation isn't Eternal.
And they never learned that heresy from a Bible.
No no no,
They were taught it by a liar, a heretic, and they bought the lie, believed it and now repeat it.
 

MatthewG

Well-Known Member
Apr 21, 2021
14,305
4,989
113
33
Fyffe
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
That transgressed and repented not.

Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?


After Jesus' resurrection. He now saves any that repent with faith toward God.

And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;


At His death on the cross, no man believed He was both Lord and God, and all men that sinned were condemned as His killers, not just the ones doing the unjust hands-on work.

And not only all the sinners of Jesus' day, but all sinners of past, present, and future are condemned as enemies of God by slaying His dear Son Jesus.

Only by His resurrection does He now grant unconditional surrender with repentance and free mercy.

True. Many are called by hearing of the gospel unto repentance and salvation, but only a few repent for salvation.


7000 was literal in the natural kingdom of Israel, and is now figurative in the everlasting kingdom of Christ.

No Israelite Jew continued believing Jesus was the Christ, when He was arrested and crucified on the cross. Especially not Peter. None of the women coming to His tomb, came to see His resurrection, but only to dress His dead body.

The OT promise to natural Israel ended at the cross, and the NT promise to all men begins with His resurrection.

For three days the whole world of sinners was void of faith toward God, even as the earth was once void of light.


True.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;



This is up for debate. Since God no longer divides His people between Jew and Gentile, then any present or future 144,000 saints sealed by the Spirit, are of course Christian members of the body of Christ.



Unless of course you want to place Rev 7 in Roman history with the Jews. But they certainly are Christian saints sealed by the Holy Ghost.

But, since the tribes are not listed accurately in Rev 7, to be those on the breastplate of Aaron, then they cannot be only natural Israelite Christians. The history and prophecy do not agree. And so the prophecy cannot be only for historical Israel after the flesh.


Ok. So long as they are all sealed Christian saints. Of course, just by historical analysis, I'm not convinced of any interpretation of prophecy.

There were of course many thousands of sealed Christian saints at the time of Jerusalem's sack, and most of them were already scattered abroad by persecution from Jews in Jerusalem.

Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:

James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.




I don't entertain any past return of Jesus Christ a second time to earth. Whether 'spiritually only' nor physically in Person. His Spirit is now shed upon all flesh on earth to convict and draw all men to repentance, but His second coming is only with resurrected body and power through the air, and is seen by all men on earth.

The only teaching of Jesus already coming again to earth, or comes again unknown 'by stealth' is for false christs only.

Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.




The first bride of Christ is since the resurrection of Jesus, until the first resurrection of His church at His second coming in the air.

There will be multitudes more newborn Christians during His thousand year reign, and they will be much more than before His coming again.

The kingdom of heaven on earth will truly be fulfilled in the kingdom of the resurrected King Jesus on earth, after His second coming.


Well, He did need to become a learning child, rather than just a babe. Afterall, He did come in the flesh conceived and born of a woman.


He knew all things before that:

Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God.

The Revelation given Him by God, was after His resurrection.

God did know all things coming to pass in the beginning, by the eyewitness of the Word watching all those things coming to pass from the beginning.

His omniscience of all things coming to pass from the beginning, is revealed by the mystery of the Godhead: That God the Word was with God in the beginning, and was testifying with God, while watching all things come to pass.

He's watching now. But not as an objective observer only, but also working to fulfill His will in them that love Him.
God knows.

God didn't allow himself to know where Adam was when he said "Where are you", even though he most certainly knew where he was.
 

MatthewG

Well-Known Member
Apr 21, 2021
14,305
4,989
113
33
Fyffe
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Brotther MG and I are not in a conversation about your question.

What we are discussing is.... "There is no verse in the NT, or in the OT, that states that Jesus KNOWS when He will return.

Now, do i believe that Jesus knows when He's coming back?
Yes.
However, there is no verse that supports my belief, and that is why i dont teach it.

We have to use the clear verses in the Bible as our Theology, and we can't let people who make up verses, or re-arrange verses according to what their Cult taught them to believe, become our Theology.

What Heretics do, is... they find one verse that says something that 40 other verses deny, or explain.
.
And they take that one verse, and teach it as if IT is the other 40.

So, when "rightly dividing" verses, we have to give precedence to the Majority that agree with each other, vs, trying to make the bible say, ONE VERSE.

4 Example......You find this happening constantly with people who are deceived = regarding """losing their Salvation.""
There are 3-4 verses they all misuse...., that they misquote or rearrange or misapply them, and that is how they try to "prove" that Salvation isn't Eternal.
And they never learned that heresy from a Bible.
No no no,
They were taught it by a liar, a heretic, and they bought the lie, believed it and now repeat it.


Jesus did know his return was coming quickly, otherwise it wouldn't be mentioned in Revelation at all. He was only revealed to this by his Father.


And if a generation is 40 years, there one would have just about the time Yeshua was to come about, along with all the terrors upon Jerusalem, suffering God's wrath in that day in age.


Of course many people are futurist believers, and they believe revelation is gonna come about today, gotta love my brothers and sisters either way who believe that is true to them.
 

MatthewG

Well-Known Member
Apr 21, 2021
14,305
4,989
113
33
Fyffe
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Jesus spoke of a "generation" and he was speaking prophetically, not literally.
So, that is the issue with people who are lost in "Preterism Heresy".
This just something to flag a debate, upon a perceptional view. It is a divisive view to those who can't love those who already have faith Jesus came already.

I believe Jesus was being very straight forward to those who asked "How will we know when the end of the Age is upon us?" That generation, was proclaimed to have all things happen with in it.
 

Behold

Well-Known Member
Apr 11, 2020
15,880
6,567
113
Netanya or Pensacola
Faith
Christian
Country
Israel
God knows.

God didn't allow himself to know where Adam was when he said "Where are you", even though he most certainly knew where he was.

So, a better way to understand "Adam where are you", is God lamenting the fact, that Adam is no longer joined to God Spiritually.

Think of it like this..

"Adam, you use to be IN ME... = Spiritual Union" ... "where are you".

See that?
God was defining the loss of this relationship as "where are you".
 

MatthewG

Well-Known Member
Apr 21, 2021
14,305
4,989
113
33
Fyffe
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
So, a better way to understand "Adam where are you", is God lamenting the fact, that Adam is no longer joined to God Spiritually.

Think of it like this..

"Adam, you use to be IN ME... = Spiritual Union" ... "where are you".

See that?
God was defining the loss of this relationship as "where are you".

The view shared can be had, plus this view as well. Interesting sayings.
 

Behold

Well-Known Member
Apr 11, 2020
15,880
6,567
113
Netanya or Pensacola
Faith
Christian
Country
Israel
Jesus did know his return was coming quickly,

In Matthew 26, Jesus is nearing His Crucifixion.

In Matt 24, Jesus said..

“But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, NOR the SON, but only the Father.""

In Matt 26, Jesus speaks of drinking New Wine with the believers, but does not name the day, time, hour, month, year, era, century.

IN Matt 28, Jesus is resurrected, and says nothing about his return.

So, there is no verse in the bible that states that Jesus KNEW exactly when He would return.

Paul and John looked for Jesus's return until they died, and never did they see Him return.

Also, and notice this Reader... John continued to live until about 100 AD, and these Preterism Cultist's say that Jesus Returned in AD70 obo.
So, John was alive when the "Preterist Heretics" teach that Jesus returned, and so JOHN apparently forgot to tell the Churches, for about 30 yrs.... that Jesus had returned again.
And thats because Jesus has not come back yet.
But He will soon., as the sign of signs is HERE, for a while now.

"as in the days of NOAH"
 

MatthewG

Well-Known Member
Apr 21, 2021
14,305
4,989
113
33
Fyffe
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
@Behold,

Revelation was written, after the Gospels.

You seem to suggest that Revelation shouldn't even be considered, considering you ignore and only respond to what you desire to respond to.



Sorry Guy, you are wrong. Or Jesus was wrong, and God is wrong, and the whole bible is a sham in general. I wont take your word for it, it would be good to not take my word for it.
 

MatthewG

Well-Known Member
Apr 21, 2021
14,305
4,989
113
33
Fyffe
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
@Behold it's nothing personal.

You will forever be against Jesus having returned then to those people at that time, based on your notion of what you desire to believe. That is cool, I just don't accept it as truth, for myself.
 

Behold

Well-Known Member
Apr 11, 2020
15,880
6,567
113
Netanya or Pensacola
Faith
Christian
Country
Israel
@Behold,

Revelation was written, after the Gospels.


And the Apostle who wrote The Revelation Lived about 30yrs beyond when Lying "Preterist" teach that Jesus came back. (AD70)

Nothing personal, but your math skills need an update., apparently.

So, John was ALIVE THEN, and did not state that Jesus had returned.....30 yrs earlier.
He had 30 Yrs to tell the Churches.

Do you think he forgot? (for 30 Yrs)?

The reason He didnt, is because Jesus has not come back yet.
But He's coming soon.
 

MatthewG

Well-Known Member
Apr 21, 2021
14,305
4,989
113
33
Fyffe
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
And the Apostle who wrote The Revelation Lived about 30yrs beyond when Lying "Preterist" teach that Jesus came back.

So, John was ALIVE THEN, and did not state that Jesus had returned.
He had 30 Yrs to tell the Churches.

The reason He didnt, is because Jesus has not come back yet.
But He's coming soon.
That is just debated.

Traditionally believed John wrote in 90Ad. I don't believe in the traditions. I would consider it to be written much sooner, rather than later. Due to the temple still standing when it comes to internal evidence written in Revelation.
 

MatthewG

Well-Known Member
Apr 21, 2021
14,305
4,989
113
33
Fyffe
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
What else didn't He know?
Maybe the Fathers will? He kept praying to be able perform the Fathers will and not his own, and the Father guided him in the right direction by the holy spirit of Yahava, In Christ Yeshua. You have any suggestions?
 

Behold

Well-Known Member
Apr 11, 2020
15,880
6,567
113
Netanya or Pensacola
Faith
Christian
Country
Israel
That is just debated.

John's Death is not debated.
Its historical fact.. regarding where He was, at about 95-99AD.

So, "lying Preterist's" teach that Jesus came back, at least 2.5 DECADES before John the Revelator died.

So, JOHN the Apostle.... was alive at Least... at LEAST 20 yrs beyond when "lying Preterist's" say that Jesus came back... (AD70)

This would mean that Jesus came back and didnt tell John, or John forgot to tell the Churches for 20-30yrs.

Jesus has not come back yet @MatthewG

Just do the math, as it won't lie to you, and on your way there, BURN all your Preterism Videos, Books, Study Guides, and Commentaries.
God will be so glad you did.
Really.
 

MatthewG

Well-Known Member
Apr 21, 2021
14,305
4,989
113
33
Fyffe
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
John's Death is not debated.
Its historical fact.. regarding where He was, at about 95-99AD.
I do not believe there is any grave where John lays. I believe he was transliterated in the heavenly kingdom, with all those who were rescued by Jesus, when he came as promised, to those living breathing people in that day in age.
So, "lying Preterist's" teach that Jesus came back, at least 2.5 DECADES before John the Revelator died.
Just because someone views different doesn't mean they are lying... they just have a differing view.
So, He was alive at Least... at LEAST 20 yrs beyond when "lying Preterist's" say that Jesus came back... (AD70)
I disagree.
This would mean that Jesus came back and didnt tell John, or John forgot to tell the Churches for 20-30yrs.
It means Jesus was a Liar, so was the apostles, God, and none of the bible is true in general.
Jesus has not come back yet @MatthewG
I disagree.
Just do the math, as it won't lie to you, and on your way there, BURN all your Preterism Videos, Book, Study Guides, and commentaries.
You and your mockery is uncalled for but noted, are you gonna just now move forward?
 

MatthewG

Well-Known Member
Apr 21, 2021
14,305
4,989
113
33
Fyffe
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
]
God will be so glad you did.
Really.
God is pleased by faith. Nothing more. By faith, I believe Jesus came and saved those people of whom were written to. If God is pleased by faith, and I believe that Jesus has had the victory. my beliefs all predicate back on the chief cornerstone, and the promises he made, and the apostles, of his coming in that day in age. Though you may disagree with it, God's not glad or happy based on the notions of what is believed, he looks for people who have faith in him, and he rewards them by spiritual means to be able to his will and his good works. In this he is pleased, let Yahava, be praised, friend. May all out there who seek him in faith, continue to love Yahava, first, and love their neighbor as their selves.
 

Behold

Well-Known Member
Apr 11, 2020
15,880
6,567
113
Netanya or Pensacola
Faith
Christian
Country
Israel
It means Jesus was a Liar, so was the apostles, God, and none of the bible is true in general.

Jesus is a lier , you mean.. and the Holy Bible . if they do not agree with the Lying Preterist's who taught you?

You need to rethink that position., asap.
 

MatthewG

Well-Known Member
Apr 21, 2021
14,305
4,989
113
33
Fyffe
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Jesus is a lier , you mean.. and the Holy Bible . if they do not agree with the Lying Preterist's who taught you?

You need to rethink that position., asap.

Yes. Jesus is a liar, if he failed to come back, to a people who were promised to be coming to be gotten.

Do you think that I am uneducated, or that I am stupid, or don't understand?
 

Behold

Well-Known Member
Apr 11, 2020
15,880
6,567
113
Netanya or Pensacola
Faith
Christian
Country
Israel
God is pleased by faith.

Thats a good topic.
I have a Thread on it..

However, its a dodge, as our discussion is your chronic preterism theology teaching.

So, as i said, Jesus didnt lie... but your Preterism teachers are still lying., and they trained you.
As a matter of fact, the first video you ever posted on the Forum, was a Lying Preterism Teacher, shoveling out his cult theology.
That's the reason you met me here, @MatthewG

My advice?
Get some truth and never let it go., and a good place to start is to get OUT of the Preterism Cult Theology.