freewill is bogus

[amadeus]

If freewill is just an illusion, I wonder how many of us will hear these words?

"I never knew you"

Probably more of us than we would like to believe.

 

[Angelina]

Revelation 13:8 KJV
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

1 Peter 1:19-20 KJV
But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: [20] Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Revelation seems to be referring to future tense rather than present tense. The bible clearly states that Jesus only died once.
Hebrews 9
24 For Christ did not enter a sanctuary made with human hands that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God’s presence. 25 Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. 26 Otherwise Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But he has appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

If he were slain from "the foundation of the world" it would not be difficult to arrive at the idea that scripture was referring to "from the time that sin entered the world through Adam/Eve" and not before the foundation of the world as you have suggested. IMO scripture was pointing toward Christ's mission that was set in place since the world was created due to the fall of man. This is just my opinion of course.... I could be wrong

 

[twinc]

If freewill is just an illusion, I wonder how many of us will hear these words?

"I never knew you"

many if not most who are on the broad road - twinc

 

[twinc]

The Bible I understand... But your one sentence lost me.

that is the problem too many claim the same - hence the confusion, contradictions and chaos - twinc

 

[VictoryinJesus]

The Holy Spirit opens up his word for understanding.

A kind word from a friend, your spouse, your preacher, a stranger or just watching the news and learning that 59 people were killed by a gunman could change our direction. Does that mean God had those 59 people killed so that I, Mary, would change my direction?

Breathing is automatic. When it stops being automatic we have to think about it and force it.

I decide if I am productive or lay flat on my back. It's called personal responsibility.

If we have no choice, then we are just puppets.

IHS....Mary

Evil is tragic and oppressive. I can't understand why anyone would hurt people they do not even know. I don't understand why it happens. But, Mary, I prefer to live in a world where evil is NOT outside of God's control. God raised Pharaoh. Even if we hate the thought of it; God also allowed Hitler to raise to power. God could have stopped it at any moment. Do you think God doesn't see or know our country, no the EARTH, is in a state of unrest and groaning from pain? Do you think God has lost control? Or do you see clearly that mankind's nature is pure evil; without God and His moral law?

You said: "Breathing is automatic. When it stops being automatic we have to think about it and force it." Yet, our breaths are numbered and only He knows the count of them. You can add nothing to your life. Breathing may be automatic, but God has decided my last breath.

Matthew 6:27-30 KJV
[27] Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature? [28] And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin: [29] And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. [30] Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith?

Possibly, we believe only Peter and others spoken of in God's word have a vital role, and since their display of the Son(Christ) was so vital and needed for the furtherance of the gospel, that the Lord was more involved. God is no respecter of persons. He still pays attention. our words and actions are still needed for the furtherance of the gospel. As children born of God; what we say and do is of an importance to God. For His Will, not ours. So, again, God is involved in whether or not: I am productive or lay flat on my back. It may come through discipline; but He will get me up and moving in the direction He wants me to go in. Even if it hurts.

(Acts 27: 1-44)

Matthew 10:30 KJV
[30] But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

If freewill is just an illusion, I wonder how many of us will hear these words?

"I never knew you"

It is a different kind of "Knew" Job. I realize I can't convince you and I am not going to argue with you. I ask: how can the Lord not know His own creation? It rains on the just and the unjust. The "knew" here is intimate. "I never knew you" intimately. The Lord is saying they had no relationship with Him. Are you married, Job? Or have you ever been married? How intimately would you say you knew your bride? If another woman came to you and also claimed to be your bride; would you not say I don't know you? They cast our devils and do mighty works in His name BUT not by His Spirit. They blaspheme His name. They do not have the Spirit of God within them, nor have they been born from above(a spiritual birth), although they claim to be His; using THEIR OWN WORKS as proof. No Spirit. No birth from above. NO intimacy with the saviour and King.

My husband shared this with me the other day: He asked, "do you know what keeps so many from entering the kingdom?"
Sin reigns in our own self-made kingdom. Self remains on the throne. (Notice their plea was based on their works.) Christ did not reign. To enter into a Kingdom: you MUST first acknowledge and submit to the King of that Kingdom. Removing yourself from the throne.

 

[Job]

They cast our devils and do mighty works in His name BUT not by His Spirit. They blaspheme His name. They do not have the Spirit of God within them, nor have they been born from above(a spiritual birth), although they claim to be His; using THEIR OWN WORKS as proof. No Spirit. No birth from above. NO intimacy with the saviour and King......

To enter into a Kingdom: you MUST first acknowledge and submit to the King of that Kingdom.

And yet many falsely believe those individuals will enter the Kingdom of heaven.


Just saying...

 

[Job]

Are you married, Job?

I quit doing that.

Proverbs 25
24 It is better to dwell in a corner of a housetop,
Than in a house shared with a contentious woman.

 

[tabletalk]

I quit doing that.

Proverbs 25
24 It is better to dwell in a corner of a housetop,
Than in a house shared with a contentious woman.

A good reason to stay married, if you're selfish like me, from Ephesians 5: 28....he who loves his wife loves himself."!!
Ponder that.

 

[Job]

A good reason to stay married, if you're selfish like me, from Ephesians 5: 28....he who loves his wife loves himself."!!
Ponder that.

Love doesn't remove the sting and heartbreak of finding a stranger in your bed.

Ponder that.

 

[tabletalk]

Love doesn't remove the sting and heartbreak of finding a stranger in your bed.

Ponder that.

I'm sure that is true. Sorry.

 

[FHII]

Revelation seems to be referring to future tense rather than present tense. The bible clearly states that Jesus only died once.

The book deals with the past, present and future from where John was standing. Yes, Jesus died only once. Of course... But it was only manifested once. It was decided before the foundation of the world. The foundation was before Adam.

f he were slain from "the foundation of the world" it would not be difficult to arrive at the idea that scripture was referring to "from the time that sin entered the world through Adam/Eve" and not before the foundation of the world as you have suggested.

Oh really? Then why did it say from the foundation of the world and not from the time that sin entered into the world via Adam/Eve?

I have to disagree... It is pretty difficult to arrive at that. Reason being that's not what was said.

Let me address the other quote I gave you:

1 Peter 1:20 KJV
Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

This verse is talking about Jesus. Jesus was manifest in the flesh to do what he did... Die for our sins.

I say the foundations of the world were before Adam and Eve. You say it was when they fell. Please let me know if my understanding of your point is wrong. But let's not argue about that right now... Let's assume you are correct.

So the foundation of the world was the fall? Ok. But this verse says he wasn't just ordained, but FOREordained. It also doesn't say he was foreordained WHEN, but BEFORE.
So I submit to you that even if the foundation of the world was when Adam and Eve fell, Jesus was foreordained before that.

 

[KBCid]

simple if God chooses to make you willing then you will, if not then you'll go the way of your own judgement,...

If God chose to make Adam and Eve willing then there never would have been sin nor the need for a test in Eden. What you may not realize about your assertion that a persons will is nothing more than Gods choice is to place God in the role as author of both good and evil.

...which is by the way the life that was chosen for you by Adam and Eve, and God left them have. and take note here Adam and Eve now go by their own judgement of what is good and evil. so God says:
Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
thing is man has now taken God's job, or it seems to man that he has. therefore in the case of people choosing God, not so, God choses. and it is God's Judgement of what is good that is good for his creation, no exceptions.

As it should be plain to see your implication that God did not give A&E the will to be Good but rather chose to let them make a choice for evil places the entire blame of the choice made on God's shoulders.
The verse you quote does not say that A&E "now go by their own judgement of what is good and evil"
It says simply "the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil". God did not assert a difference in understanding about good and evil between them and A&E. The statement made by God asserts in its simple way that Like God, man has gained the same understanding of good and evil that they have.
If as you assert "in the case of people choosing God, not so, God choses" inferring no freedom of will by the individual then you place God as the one who made that which he would not choose.

It should also be pointed out that if man has no free will as you suggest then that would mean either that God has no free will since we were made in their image or that God lied about us being made in their image.

God is love and they have given man the one choice that they are unable to make themselves....
Man can choose not to continue existing as an individual.
The essence that God gave to allow you to become an individual with free choice can be taken back by the one who gave it;
Gen 2:7 then the Lord God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life
Job 27:3 All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils
Job 27:8 For what is the hope of the hypocrite, though he hath gained, when God taketh away his soul?
Job 34:14 ... if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath; 15 All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust.

 

[DPMartin]

"simple if God chooses to make you willing then you will, if not then you'll go the way of your own judgement,..."
If God chose to make Adam and Eve willing then there never would have been sin nor the need for a test in Eden. What you may not realize about your assertion that a persons will is nothing more than Gods choice is to place God in the role as author of both good and evil.

for one I didn't say that about Adam and Eve, I said that about "you" we are not born into the world with the same Life Adam had before he ate of the tree. dogs don't have a cat's life. we are born into the world receiving the life of dust to dust ashes to ashes, a result of a choice Adam and Eve made as per God's choice for them, or ruling, to remain in. hence the life that has been chosen for you when you were born into the world.

and I didn't say "God chose to make Adam and Eve willing" you did so that part of your argument is erroneous and off subject.


this maybe a type o but it don't make no sense

"What you may not realize about your assertion that a persons will is nothing more than Gods choice is to place God in the role as author of both good and evil."

God ruled on "judged" what was good through out the days of creation and:

Gen 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.


and what makes you think that anything that is isn't made by God, He made the darkness did He not? what is good for or evil for His creation and the things therein, including the living is according to His Judgement. the commandment given to Adam when God put Adam in the garden, is God's Judgement of what was good for Adam, anything other then that is what?

and you mince will with choice, some thing may not be some ones choice but circumstances can make one willing. there's not will or willing in the case of A&E they trusted words other than the Word of God and they and all their children after have now received the life without the Life that was lost. they made that choice for you.

and willing and willingness, is a whole different can of worms. so again the delusion of self control and self destiny is the case with freewill. not matter what you do or say, the result is the same, everyone's destiny is the same, the way of the earth. unless one receives the Life of Christ which again is God's choice for you. one doesn't chose to be born of just as a dog doesn't chose to be born a dog.

As it should be plain to see your implication that God did not give A&E the will to be Good but rather chose to let them make a choice for evil places the entire blame of the choice made on God's shoulders.
The verse you quote does not say that A&E "now go by their own judgement of what is good and evil"
It says simply "the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil". God did not assert a difference in understanding about good and evil between them and A&E. The statement made by God asserts in its simple way that Like God, man has gained the same understanding of good and evil that they have.
If as you assert "in the case of people choosing God, not so, God choses" inferring no freedom of will by the individual then you place God as the one who made that which he would not choose.

here, here's the whole chapter ok, read it for your self:


Gen 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? 2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden, (note here that she is not quoting what God said and is tested by the serpent to see if she knows the Word of God) 3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. 4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die. (since she doesn't know or maybe care what God said the serpent goes for the jugular) 5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. (here is where you are off the track, God is the Judge of what is good and evil not man, therefore seeing she might be as a god) 6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. (hence the act according to their own judgment not God's Judgement)7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons. 8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden. 9 And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou? 10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself. 11 And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat? 12 And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat. 13 And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat. 14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: 15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. 16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. 17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; 18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; 19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. 20 And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living. 21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them. 22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: 23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. 24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

what you don't seem to understand is the fundamentals, we are to execute God's Judgement in the earth (life), not our own(which results in death, its SOP for men to believe judgment is death). are we to discern was is for or against? sure, A&E didn't even go there did they, they went for God's place in the earth, hence why God calls men thieves in other places in scripture. we are not the judges of what is good and evil, only the discerners of what is for and against God's Judgements, of what is good and evil. but placing our own judgement above God's Judgment is to seek to be as a god.

and maybe you also need to know just who Adam was to be:

Luk 3:38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

 

[bbyrd009]

funny to me that regardless of one's position on free will we might still observe that people act according to their natures; iow a child of yours possessed of a certain nature can be reliably anticipated in a certain situation, iow they are going to act like they have in the past, unless they have changed their minds.

So then it can be said that they have "free will," but they are also in a sense "bound" to do what they have done in the past, what they are known for.

 

[perrero]

I agree with DP. people believe they have free will because they really do have dilemmas, choices to make along with problems, pain and victories. But God has shown he can step in at anytime. He said he declared (not just knew, but declared) the end from the beginning. We are told he chose us and we did not chose him. Yet, we are the ones who have to go through with this... Mess...

Yet... What does this knowledge do for us? Knowing God foreordained our actions, what do we do?

The answer is nothing. We are still to contend for the faith.

If there is no free will then there is no God.
Free will is one of the capacities that we are given that makes us in His image.
Without free will, we are nothing but Barbies and GI Joes for Him. God is in no need for toys. He had no need for us in eternity before creation and would have no need of us for an eternity onward.
Free will is what makes us individually precious to Him.
It is what allows Him to share, care and give us a life filled with Himself and if reciprocated it provides us with gracious benefits.
There is only one reason for God to create humans, Relationship. And that requires true free will, otherwise we are back to the sandbox with toys.

 

[FHII]

If there is no free will then there is no God.
Free will is one of the capacities that we are given that makes us in His image.
Without free will, we are nothing but Barbies and GI Joes for Him. God is in no need for toys. He had no need for us in eternity before creation and would have no need of us for an eternity onward.
Free will is what makes us individually precious to Him.
It is what allows Him to share, care and give us a life filled with Himself and if reciprocated it provides us with gracious benefits.
There is only one reason for God to create humans, Relationship. And that requires true free will, otherwise we are back to the sandbox with toys.

If there is no free will then there is no God.
Free will is one of the capacities that we are given that makes us in His image.
Without free will, we are nothing but Barbies and GI Joes for Him. God is in no need for toys. He had no need for us in eternity before creation and would have no need of us for an eternity onward.
Free will is what makes us individually precious to Him.
It is what allows Him to share, care and give us a life filled with Himself and if reciprocated it provides us with gracious benefits.
There is only one reason for God to create humans, Relationship. And that requires true free will, otherwise we are back to the sandbox with toys.

Those are pretty strong words and you have not backed up anything with scripture. No need... I have been around this block many times before. I couldve written that whole oost for you myself.

The thing is if we really do have free will, then God will never intervene. Once he does he breaks whatever code free will has.

I don't see how knocking Paul to his knees and blinding him is allowing free will. I don't see how God hardening Pharoah's heart while his country was suffering as being free will. I don't see God saying, "I raised up pharoah to show my greatness" as being free will.

I can five at least 2 more examples right now and probably more if I think on it. And you can try to give an excuse for how this really was free will, but it never has panned out.

Isaiah 46:10. God declared the end from the beginning and all his will shall be done.

Eph 1:11. God works all things after the council of HIS will. These are realky tough verses to get by. People try to say that overall... Yes. God is going to get his way, but he's not talking about each individual person. I disagree. Tell that to Paul. Or Jeremiah. Or Isaiah or Jonah. Or even Moses. They all tried to back out. They failed.

We perceive free will because we have difficult choices to make. Because we have hardships and persecutions. That is nothing more than our education for better things. Its our training. Most folks who tout free will have no problem with acknowledging God foreknows our decisions. Yet, the will not acknowledge that God declared them and works them.

Folks... I am the type of person who will thank God for a flat tire when I am already late for a job interview. I believe God intervenes in my choices even without telling me about it. I do not think I am alone on that. If so... Is that free will?

 

[aspen]

True self - freewill
False self - determined.

Devil and demons - 100% false self

Worldly people are living through their false self, which is determined because it cannot choose good.

Christians can choose the good and choose between good choices - they can also choose to assert their false, worldly selves.

 

[FHII]

True self - freewill.

How so? Could you explain that to me? Are we not members of his body? Of his flesh and bone? Are we not instructed to ask not of my will, but thy will?

The flesh wants free will. The spirit wants his will. Maybe you are right... Maybe the true person does want free will. But I don't think so.

False self - determined.

This I haven't a clue about. Determination is just as true as it is false. Yes. Men determine things... Even Paul did. God also determined things. Does God have a false self?

 

[aspen]

How so? Could you explain that to me? Are we not members of his body? Of his flesh and bone? Are we not instructed to ask not of my will, but thy will?

The flesh wants free will. The spirit wants his will. Maybe you are right... Maybe the true person does want free will. But I don't think so.

This I haven't a clue about. Determination is just as true as it is false. Yes. Men determine things... Even Paul did. God also determined things. Does God have a false self?

How so? Could you explain that to me? Are we not members of his body? Of his flesh and bone? Are we not instructed to ask not of my will, but thy will?

The flesh wants free will. The spirit wants his will. Maybe you are right... Maybe the true person does want free will. But I don't think so.

This I haven't a clue about. Determination is just as true as it is false. Yes. Men determine things... Even Paul did. God also determined things. Does God have a false self?

I think we had freewill in the Garden before the Fall because we were living from our true self - we knew Gods Creation for what it truly is - Good, and we knew we could misuse it, which was outside Gods will. We did not comprehend the extent of the consequences.

Unfortunately, at one point, we decided to misuse the tree (TKGE). As a consequence, we developed a shadow self, which was incapable of being vulnerable and sought to hide our nakedness. It was represented in the story as the leaves and the animals skins, which forever condemned us to secrecy, a distorted view of creation, and death. God gave us this skin by his grace, even though it blocked us from an intimate relationship with Him and the Tree of Life Christ.

However, God is greater than our desire to hide from Him and through the death of His Son, He experienced the same death and overcame it, which reunited us.

Our corporate false self is worldliness - it is everything that we generate, which is shallow, unfulfilling, missing the mark, human justice - nothing on earth is satisfying because it is all generated from our lost selves, Paul’s example of the old man, ego.

When we submit to Christ, we become capable of being vulnerable, once more - living from our true self, which is the only self Christ recognizes. Once we see the world with the correct lenses again, we can truly choose between good choices, once more - we truly experience a state of freedom and freewill.

Living from our false worldly self cuts us off from seeing the world as the good creation it truly is, which distorts every choice we make - hedonism is always the result, which is worship of the self and ultimate destruction. Without Christ we can only choose between ‘evil’ choices because every choice is distorted and self serving because we cannot see the goodness of creation and its true purpose which is to bring glory to God.

I believe Hell is remaining in the false self. Ultimately, Hell, like the animal skins are Gods Grace - as crazy as that sounds because demanding vulnerability from people without permission is assualt of most ultimate kind.

I do not believe God has a false self - i believe Angels made the decision to live forever from their true selves without experiencing a false self - i believe Satan and his angels chose to live from their false self - because it is an incomplete state of being, i am not sure it can be seen as eternal. Eternal means complete - change suggests transition. Perhaps Hell is a perpetual movement away from God and therefore eternal.