God’s grace, plus the believer’s part: enduring faith, works, obedience!

[justaname]

Sorry...I did not see this comment a few pages back. Here is my testimony if you are interested ~

He Drew Me Out Of Deep Waters, He Rescued Me

When I was 8 years old, we lived in the woods [forest town] along with other families because my father worked in that industry at the time [forestry]. One day I was coming home from my friends house and I had to pass a creek. On this particular day, I happened to notice two girls around my age just standing there looking at something in the creek, so I went over to find out what they were doing. I saw another girl in the creek, thrashing around, drowning.

The two girls who were watching, were in a state of shock and could not move. I started to become that way as well because it was something that was too much for our little minds to take in. image


Anyway, as I was standing there, I heard a very loud male voice say to me "pick up the stick." I looked around and saw a stick on the ground so I picked it up. Then the voice said, "hold it out," so I held it out in front of me. Now this stick was only short and there was no-way that the drowning girl could get a hold of it...but as I held it out, it somehow extended across the water and the girl managed to grab a hold of it and I pulled her in.


It actually felt like nothing was at the end of that stick but anyway I pulled her back to the bank and she scrambled out. As she did this, I lost my footing and ended up in the creek myself and they walked off.

So here I was now drowning in that very creek that I had pulled the girl from. I could not swim at the time and all I could remember was the murky grayish water and the pretty green oxygen weed. After a while, I got tired as I could not keep my head above the water any longer, so I started to sink...knowing that I was going to die. It felt very peaceful and I was ready to die.

As I sank further down into the murky water, my breath began to run out and my lungs began to hurt...suddenly my feet hit something hard and smooth, like a platform. I was quickly lifted upwards until I broke the water line and began to breathe again.

It was very odd because now I was standing on something that I could not see, in midair, above the creek. The next thing I knew, I was moving forward very quickly towards the bank. The platform I was standing on, then disappeared and I dropped to the ground, landing with two feet on the bank...

I really did not know what had just happened but I knew my mother would be angry with me because I was completely, soaking wet!
So I went home and sure enough I was in trouble...Lol!

God loves me and he sent angels to bear me up on their hands, least I strike my foot against a stone. He did not want me to die because he has a plan for my life....This is only one of the many divine encounters where God has saved me from certain death...

I am still here because he loves me and I love him with everything I've got...because he lives, I live, Glory! ^_^

WOW!

BE BLESSED AND USED MIGHTILY BY GOD!

This really weighs on me though.

If you believe He has a plan for you and saved your physical life, is He not able to save your spiritual life also if it comes close to death? No need to answer.

In the Love of Christ,
justaname

 

[StanJ]

How can you return it when it's sealed in you for life? That's a pretty good magic trick Stan. Even David Blaine can't pull that one off.

Another thing you misinterpret or don't understand. We are sealed for God by God himself with the Holy Spirit. That means spiritually God puts a mark on our lives and yes it's very easy to get rid of a mark. We're not talking magic here we're talking spiritual reality, and we are not held hostage by God. Of course part of your dogmatic beliefs is that you don't believe in free will so of course you wouldn't understand this. The problem with following the flower Doctrine is that it intersects all your views not just one single issue.

 

[StanJ]

Maybe I have. Only God knows. Christians plant the seed, but only God can draw them in.

We actually Harvest as well so you would know if you let somebody to Christ. In my opinion that's pretty much a cop-out.

 

[StanJ]

Stan there are times where you communicate things that might seem clear to you, but to the reader on the other side it is clear as mud. This is why I rephrase the words you use because this is how I comprehend what you are communicating so I am asking for verification of this understanding. Brother I am only trying to have a discourse not frustrate you even if we don't agree on some matters. I am not here to play word games or win arguments. I have always been here for discussion.

That's why I said ask if you're not sure. Yes I do assume that I use common English vernacular and that most people will understand me. But I also voice type so sometimes I don't check it so it may come across as incomprehensible or garbled.
To me it doesn't come across as you being here for conversation when you constantly ask me the same thing and I have to reiterate time and time again the same answers.

I do not understand why you are differentiating between the language "apostate" and "losing you salvation." The only thing I see being communicated here is the action is not equivalent to the result. What is your reasoning for communicating this and how does this relate to the discussion?

Because apostasy is voluntary and losing your salvation is not voluntary or at least it does not imply being voluntary. I can assure you that after many years of discussion with people that believe in eternal security, they equivocate about this point all the time so I've gotten used to making it clear up front. I've never said that anybody can lose their salvation but when I bring up the issue of apostasy I'm always greeted with the same response that we cannot lose our salvation. So in essence it's to avoid equivocation which sadly I seem to get any how.

Exactly! And most Jews rejected their Messiah.

Well I can't speak to most but the point is Luke is addressing believers, those who have accepted Jesus as their savior, and he is relating to them those he knows of that were believers and rejected Jesus. He is warning those believers he's addressing not to do the same thing as those he's referring to . He's not addressing those who rejected their Messiah. They would not be believers.

The audience is not the subject the author is speaking of in these verses verified by verse 9. Also you do not know if Luke wrote this epistle, yet if you want to believe he did go ahead. Now show me where the author of Hebrews specifically states those referred to in 6:4-6 are believers. You can not, you can only infer this from the text. You have the pre-formed opinion here Stan. Your "Luke says they are" is your inference not a literary fact.

No the audiences who the author speaking to. Not sure why you're having a hard time understanding this? Actually I do know that Luke wrote Hebrews because I've studied it, and you may not know or you may not be convinced but I am so in that vein I use his name as the author, so unless you can prove to the contrary, and do it in another thread, then please don't keep bringing it up.
I just did and as usual you continue to ask the same question after you have received the answer. If you can't see it, me reiterating it and time again is not going to change your mind or make you read any better. You have to learn that on your own time. It is not only a literary fact, it is a biblical fact.

How would the Jews this epistle was written to have understood this? When reading the Bible one should place their feet in the sandals of time, and try to surmise how the original recipients would have received the message, especially in the case of epistles.

Because they were already believers. Do you assume that this book was just written to them out of the blue? Do you think that these issues had not previously reached the author ears and this letter was his way of dealing with these issues? Most of the Epistles in the New Testament were written in response to issues that already existed with the people that the authors were writing to, with maybe the exception of the gospels and Acts and Revelation.

4 Ἀδύνατον γὰρ τοὺς ἅπαξ φωτισθέντας, γευσαμένους τε τῆς δωρεᾶς τῆς ἐπουρανίου καὶ μετόχους γενηθέντας πνεύματος ἁγίου 5 καὶ καλὸν γευσαμένους θεοῦ ῥῆμα δυνάμεις τε μέλλοντος αἰῶνος 6 καὶ παραπεσόντας, πάλιν ἀνακαινίζειν εἰς μετάνοιαν, ἀνασταυροῦντας ἑαυτοῖς τὸν υἱὸν τοῦ θεοῦ καὶ παραδειγματίζοντας.
Aland, B., Aland, K., Karavidopoulos, J., Martini, C. M., & Metzger, B. M. (Eds.). (2014). The Greek New Testament (Fifth Revised Edition, Heb 6:4–6). Stuttgart, Germany: Deutsche Bibelgesellschaft.
Here is the Greek. The two times γευσαμένους is used it is rendered "have tasted." Have tasted of the heavenly gift. (Jesus) Have tasted the good word of God and and the powers of the age to come. (Jesus' testimony and preaching and His signs and wonders)

Yes and don't forget, "who have shared the Holy Spirit." γίνομαι (ginomai)μέτοχος (metochos). Did you have a point you're trying to make?

 

[ATP]

That means spiritually God puts a mark on our lives and yes it's very easy to get rid of a mark.

Of course we have free will. That doesn't stop God from disciplining us, and it doesn't stop Him from being jealous for His people. You're also adding to scripture. Nowhere does it say we can get rid of the mark. It says the opposite. It says we are sealed until redemption.

 

[ATP]

Better things, better promises...

Heb 6:9 NIV Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are convinced of better things in your case--the things that have to do with salvation.

Heb 8:6 NIV But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises.

 

[ATP]

I find it interesting that the author is using a parabolical illustration in Heb 6:7-8 right after he says it's impossible to bring them back to repentance.

Matt 10:27 NIV Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but not with God; all things are possible with God."

 

[Angelina]

My point is that those passages are referring to what sin does. It has nothing to do with losing salvation. And when believers fall into sin, God disciplines and sanctifies us so as to not return to that sin again. It's the power of the Holy Spirit

Sin leads to death. He wasn't speaking to non-believers here because they are already without Christ and the hope we have of eternal life. He is basically pointing out the fact that sin gives birth to death and that is what Christ died on the cross for...he is speaking to believers. If sin leads to death then than death is going to be without Christ because he already died once for the sins of the people...

What does this have to do with our original faith? Sin brings death. Everyone knows this

Sin has everything to do with our original confession. The new covenant is a contract between two parties. If the contract is broken by a party and that party is un-repentent ergo; practicing sin, then he will die in his sins and without Christ. Christian believers cannot stay in the state they have been saved because they need to grow in respect to the salvation that they have received. Salvation is a free gift from God. Sanctification is a process whereby individuals will grow and bear good fruit and become more like the image of Christ and not like the image of our old man which was crucified with him.
man.


1 Peter 2
2 Therefore, putting aside all malice and all deceit and hypocrisy and envy and all slander, 2 like newborn babies, long for the pure milk of the word, so that by it you may grow in respect to salvation, 3 if you have tasted the kindness of the Lord.

Romans 6
16 Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you have come to obey from your heart the pattern of teaching that has now claimed your allegiance.

18 You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.
19 I am using an example from everyday life because of your human limitations. Just as you used to offer yourselves as slaves to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer yourselves as slaves to righteousness leading to holiness. 20 When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. 21 What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! 22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Jesus was the only perfect being Angelina. We learned that in what, 1st, 2nd grade? "Christians no longer sinning" has to do with maturity in Christ.

Matthew 5
43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

 

[Angelina]

Hi justaname,

If you believe He has a plan for you and saved your physical life, is He not able to save your spiritual life also if it comes close to death? No need to answer.

I guess it depends on your knowledge of him and your willingness to obey his will as a born-again believer. I'm not quite sure what you mean. Please clarify...

 

[Angelina]

I have thought about this incident for a number of years and I believe that this was not unlike a baptism... from death to life.

 

[Zachary]

Would you try fixing a car that you know can never be fixed?
Would you give a child a priceless family heirloom you know that he/she will destroy?

This is extremely sophmoric.
I've already explained that ...
God does His part (full of grace) by giving salvation.
But, man CAN do His part by choosing to throw it away.
Why is this so difficult to understand?

 

[Zachary]

A believer [someone who is saved] can go from being tempted by sin
which eventually brings forth death.

Again, I urge everyone to partake of Romans 6,
and try to understand what Paul is saying!

To summarize:
He is writing to believers, and he is warning ...
sin results in eternal death.

He gives more details:
belief >> obedience >> righteousness >> holiness >> eternal life

Romans 6 ... read it ... and try to comprehend it.

 

[ATP]

Sin leads to death. He wasn't speaking to non-believers here because they are already without Christ and the hope we have of eternal life. He is basically pointing out the fact that sin gives birth to death and that is what Christ died on the cross for...he is speaking to believers. If sin leads to death then than death is going to be without Christ because he already died once for the sins of the people...

Neither death nor life can separate us from God, Rom 8:38-39 NIV.

More Than Conquerors
31 What, then, shall we say in response to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?
32 He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things?
33 Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies.
34 Who then is the one who condemns? No one. Christ Jesus who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us.
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword?
36 As it is written: “For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.”
37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us.
38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers,
39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

I have thought about this incident for a number of years and I believe that this was not unlike a baptism... from death to life.

Crossing over from death to life is not based on a near death experience. It's based on believing in who Jesus Christ is.

John 5:24 NIV “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

 

[ATP]

How can we be condemned to eternal death when we've already been baptized into Jesus death?

Rom 6:3-7 NIV Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. 5If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection. 6For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7because anyone who has died has been set free from sin.

 

[mjrhealth]

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Rom 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him

Why are christians so absorbed in sin when Christ came to set us free from the consequence, does not any one believe it is possible for God to save mankind??

Sin is only an issue for those who are not in Christ and not being baptized into His death, read about the sons of Zebedee.

 

[ATP]

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Rom 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him

Why are christians so absorbed in sin when Christ came to set us free from the consequence, does not any one believe it is possible for God to save mankind??

Sin is only an issue for those who are not in Christ and not being baptized into His death, read about the sons of Zebedee.

or having the seed of God in you and still not knowing you have eternal life...strangee

 

[StanJ]

Of course we have free will. That doesn't stop God from disciplining us, and it doesn't stop Him from being jealous for His people. You're also adding to scripture. Nowhere does it say we can get rid of the mark. It says the opposite. It says we are sealed until redemption.

As you're the one that's putting the connotation of guarantee on the word sealed it would be you that's adding to the word. Seal means to leave a mark or impression on a life just as letters used to be sealed with a wax stamped impression of the senders authority. If we're already redeemed why do we need to be sealed until we are redeemed? Eph 1:7
Again, your dogma interprets everything you view in scripture, rather than the scripture telling you what it actually says. There is no use for you to continually repeat your erroneous assertions when I've already shown that they are wrong.

 

[StanJ]

I find it interesting that the author is using a parabolical illustration in Heb 6:7-8 right after he says it's impossible to bring them back to repentance.

Matt 10:27 NIV Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but not with God; all things are possible with God."

So you figure you'll use a totally irrelevant verse from Matthew to interpret what Hebrews says? You really have no idea about context do you?

 

[StanJ]

This is extremely sophmoric.
I've already explained that ...
God does His part (full of grace) by giving salvation.
But, man CAN do His part by choosing to throw it away.
Why is this so difficult to understand?

It's only difficult to understand for two people on this thread, nobody else.

 

[FHII]

Romans 6 confuses so many people. They read, "shall we continue in sin, God forbid" and then just stop reading. They don't understand that the chapter is saying we aren't accountablr for our sins because Christ paid the price and we are looked at as dead to sins by God.