God’s grace, plus the believer’s part: enduring faith, works, obedience!

[StanJ]

Romans 6 confuses so many people. They read, "shall we continue in sin, God forbid" and then just stop reading. They don't understand that the chapter is saying we aren't accountablr for our sins because Christ paid the price and we are looked at as dead to sins by God.

That's a tad simplistic and understated. Paul is dealing with the differences between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant and as such is trying to deal with the issues of the law not necessarily being applicable but being valid. It is a problem that continues today in the body of Christ. Many people act as if they are still under the Old Covenant by obeying rules and regulations of men or of their denominations rather than of God and his written word. We are accountable for our sins, which is why we are told to confess them and leave them behind. Jesus did die for all sin and as soon as we recognize that sin in our lives and confess it, it is forgiven. Confess means to agree with God that what he says is sin is indeed sin. Because Jesus died for our sins doesn't mean that they were all forgiven at that time that he died. It means that he provided the required sacrifice for that sin and that when we confess him as our savior that sin is covered by his sacrifice in our lives.

 

[ATP]

So you figure you'll use a totally irrelevant verse from Matthew to interpret what Hebrews says? You really have no idea about context do you?

I would say Heb 6:7-9 are very relevant. Why would God say it's impossible to repent and then say all things are possible through God?

As you're the one that's putting the connotation of guarantee on the word sealed it would be you that's adding to the word.

Well, it's not me putting the guarantee on the seal. It's the Word of God. How can I be adding to scripture if the word is there...

2 Cor 1:21-22 NIV Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, 22set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

Eph 1:13-14 NIV And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

 

[StanJ]

I would say Heb 6:7-9 are very relevant. Why would God say it's impossible to repent and then say all things are possible through God?

Two different issues what you don't seem to want to acknowledge? Jesus himself said with man it may be impossible but With God all things are possible. And that is true, however when Hebrews says that it's impossible for a man to repent that's exactly what it means, it's impossible for that man to repent. If God wanted to add a qualifier that it would be possible to repent with his help then he would have added that to the scripture, so you assuming that that's what he meant is simply just adding to something that God didn't say.

Well, it's not me putting the guarantee on the seal. It's the Word of God. How can I be adding to scripture if the word is there...

Yes it is you putting the word guarantee on the seal to secure our confessions, when the guarentee is about what IS TO COME, not that we personally will receive it regardless of what we do in our lives.

 

[ATP]

Two different issues what you don't seem to want to acknowledge? Jesus himself said with man it may be impossible but With God all things are possible. And that is true, however when Hebrews says that it's impossible for a man to repent that's exactly what it means, it's impossible for that man to repent. If God wanted to add a qualifier that it would be possible to repent with his help then he would have added that to the scripture, so you assuming that that's what he meant is simply just adding to something that God didn't say.

I would submit Heb 6:4-8 is in full a parabolical illustration, metaphor. Heb 6:9 says "Even though we speak like this"...

Heb 6:4, 7 CONNECTION - Pulpit Commentary - Vers, 7, 8 - For land which hath drunk in the oft-coming rain upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them for whom (not, as in A.V., "by whom") it is also tilled, receiveth blessing from God; but if it beareth thorns and thistles (not, as in A.V., "that which beareth"), it is rejected, and nigh unto cursing, whose end is to be burned (literally, for burning;

Heb 6:7 Matthew Poole's Commentary - For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it: for is narrative here, and not rational, introducing a parabolical illustration of the states and ends of truly regenerate Christians, and unregenerate apostates; as if he said: You have heard the good of true perfect Christians, and the evil of apostates, you need not to be offended at it, or wonder, for it is with them even as with the earth, which is the good ground in Christ’s parable, Matthew 13:8 Luke 8:8, and which he interpreteth to be a good and an honest heart, Luke 8:15, renewed in a sinner by the Holy Ghost, naturally of the same mould with all others, Ezekiel 11:19 36:26,27. As the earth drinks up the showers moistening and fructifying it; Psalm 45:9,10; so this good and honest heart receiveth the spiritual dews and rain descending from heaven on it in the word and ordinances, as Deu 32:2.

Heb 6:7 Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers - Receiveth blessing from God.—Receives as a reward a share in the blessing which God pronounces on the fruitful earth, resulting in increased fertility (Genesis 27:27; Genesis 49:25; Deuteronomy 33:13). In the application of the parable, God is the owner of the land, men the tillers; men also are “God’s field” (1Corinthians 3:9), who bring forth fruit unto God,

Yes it is you putting the word guarantee on the seal to secure our confessions, when the guarentee is about what IS TO COME, not that we personally will receive it regardless of what we do in our lives.

"What is to come" is God keeping His promises to us. :huh:

2 Cor 1:22 NLT and he has identified us as his own by placing the Holy Spirit in our hearts as the first installment that guarantees everything he has promised us.

Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary - 1:15-24 The apostle clears himself from the charge of levity and inconstancy, in not coming to Corinth. Good men should be careful to keep the reputation of sincerity and constancy; they should not resolve, but on careful thought; and they will not change unless for weighty reasons. Nothing can render God's promises more certain: his giving them through Christ, assures us they are his promises; as the wonders God wrought in the life, resurrection, and ascension of his Son, confirm faith. The Holy Spirit makes Christians firm in the faith of the gospel: the quickening of the Spirit is an earnest of everlasting life; and the comforts of the Spirit are an earnest of everlasting joy. The apostle desired to spare the blame he feared would be unavoidable, if he had gone to Corinth before he learned what effect his former letter produced. Our strength and ability are owing to faith; and our comfort and joy must flow from faith. The holy tempers and gracious fruits which attend faith, secure from delusion in so important a matter.

Pulpit Commentary - Verse 22. - Who hath also sealed us. We cannot be deconsecrated, disanointed. Still less can the confirming seal be broken. He continues to dwell on the conception of the unchangeableness of God and of the gospel into which he had been incidentally led by the charge of "lightness." The earnest of the Spirit. The promises which we have received are not mere promises, they are already so far fulfilled to us and in us as to guarantee hereafter their plenary fruition. Just as in money bargains "earnest money," "money on account," is given, in pledge that the whole will be ultimately discharged, so we have "the earnest of the Spirit" (2 Corinthians 5:5), "the firstfruits of the Spirit" (Romans 8:23), which are to us "the earnest" or pledge money that we shall hereafter enter upon the purchased possession (Ephesians 1:13, 14). We now see the meaning of the "and." It involves a climax - the promise is much; the unction more; the seal a still further security (Ephesians 4:30; 2 Timothy 2:19); but beyond all this we have already a part payment in the indwelling of the Present of God (Romans 5:5; Romans 8:9; Galatians 4:6). The word arrabon, rendered "earnest," has an interesting history. It is very ancient, for it is found (עַרָבון) in Genesis 38:17, 18, and comes from a root meaning "to pledge." It seems to be a Phoenician word, which had been introduced into various languages by the universality of Phoenician commerce. In classical Latin it is shortened into arrha, and it still exists in Italian as aura, in French as arrhes. The equivalent Hebrew figure is "firstfruits" (Romans 8:23).

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible - Who hath also sealed us,.... "Two" things more are here attributed to God; "first", the sealing of his people. The use of seals is various, as to denote property in things, to distinguish one thing from another, to show esteem and affection for persons or things, and for security and protection, and to hide and conceal; all which might be applied to sealing, as expressive of the grace of God to his people, in claiming a property in them, distinguishing them from the rest of the world, setting his affections on them, securing and protecting their persons, and hiding them under the shadow of his wings: but sometimes a seal is used to certify, make sure, or assure the truth of a thing; see John 3:33 in which sense the word "sealing" is used here, and intends that assurance which God gives his people of their interest in his love, and the covenant of grace; of their election of God, and redemption by Christ; of their interest in Christ, and union with him; of their justification by him, and adoption through him; of the truth of grace in their hearts, their perseverance in it, and sure and certain enjoyment of eternal glory. The persons thus sealed are not carnal and unconverted persons, only believers in Christ, and these, after they commence such; the seal by which they are sealed, is not any of the ordinances, as circumcision under the Old Testament, or baptism, or the Lord's supper under the New; for these are no seals, nor are they ever so called; but the Spirit of God himself, as the Holy Spirit of promise; for the same who, in the next clause, is called the earnest, is the seal; see Ephesians 1:13. "Secondly", the giving of the earnest of the Spirit:

and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts: by "the Spirit" is meant, not the gifts and graces of the Spirit merely, but the Spirit of God and Christ himself; who was concerned in the creation of the world, in inditing the Scriptures, in forming and filling the human nature of Christ, and in his resurrection from the dead; he himself is given as an "earnest": the word here used, and in 2 Corinthians 5:5 is the Hebrew word and comes from which signifies "to become a surety, to give a pledge"; and is used for a pledge in covenants and bargains, both in Scripture, see Genesis 38:17, and in Jewish writings (d); which is given as an earnest, and in part of what it is a pledge of, and is never returned: the Spirit of God is an earnest or pledge of the heavenly inheritance, which is not only prepared for us, and promised to us, and Christ is in the possession of in our nature, in our room and stead, and as our representative; but the Spirit of God also is sent down "into our hearts" as a pledge of it; where he dwells as in his temple, supplies us with all grace, witnesses to us our sonship, and assures us of the heavenly glory: and as such he is "given"; and an unmerited free grace gift he is; for him to be given in this manner, and for such a purpose, is a wonderful display of the love of the Father, and of the Son, and is a surprising instance of his grace and condescension of the Spirit, and for which we should be abundantly thankful.

Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary - 22. sealed—A seal is a token assuring the possession of property to one; "sealed" here answers to "stablisheth us" (2Co 1:21; 1Co 9:2).

the earnest of the Spirit—that is, the Spirit as the earnest (that is, money given by a purchaser as a pledge for the full payment of the sum promised). The Holy Spirit is given to the believer now as a first instalment to assure him his full inheritance as a son of God shall be his hereafter (Eph 1:13, 14). "Sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession" (Ro 8:23). The Spirit is the pledge of the fulfilment of "all the promises" (2Co 1:20).

 

[ATP]

Confidence comes through believing...

Heb 6:9 NLT Dear friends, even though we are talking this way, we really don't believe it applies to you. We are confident that you are meant for better things, things that come with salvation.

1 John 5:9-14 NIV / Psa 21:4 NIV We accept human testimony, but God’s testimony is greater because it is the testimony of God, which he has given about his Son. 10Whoever believes in the Son of God accepts this testimony. Whoever does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because they have not believed the testimony God has given about his Son. 11And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. 14This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us.

 

[Angelina]

35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword?

36 As it is written: “For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.”
37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us.
38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers,
39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Paul is speaking about himself, all the disciples and Apostles who were suffering for the sake of spreading the good news of the gospel to others. If we were to follow the Apostles, should we not also suffer trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? The Apostles were the first fruit in Christ and they suffered terribly. However, he was also saying that nothing can separate us from the love of God. That is why Christ died. John 3:16. That does not mean that mankind is going to receive him or when they do...it does not mean that they will remain in his love. Some folks just want to have their cake and eat it too because it is too hard for them to endure to the end. 1 Corinthians 4:12, 1 Corinthians 9:12, 2 Thessalonians 1:4 2 Timothy 2:12, 2 Timothy 4:5, Hebrews 6: 13-15, James 1:12, James 5:11

 

[StanJ]

I would submit Heb 6:4-8 is in full a parabolical illustration, metaphor. Heb 6:9 says "Even though we speak like this"...

Now you're really reaching ATP, there is nothing parabolic about Hebrews 6 at all, it is a statement of fact. Verses 7 & 8 may indeed be metaphorical but that's not the same thing. Again you seem to have a hard time understanding the different grammar being used in this section of scripture?
What Luke says here in verses 7 & 8 is no different than what he writes in Luke 8:11-15.

"What is to come" is God keeping His promises to us.

No, what is to come is what he said it is, ETERNAL LIFE.

If you actually understood all this that you cut and pasted into this post then I would say Bravo but I doubt very much you looked at it with a unbiased eye.
It's probably best that you get a handle on what actually is being said here instead of trying to use other commentators to support what you're not even sure you know.

 

[ATP]

God cannot lie...

Heb 6:16:20 NIV People swear by someone greater than themselves, and the oath confirms what is said and puts an end to all argument. 17Because God wanted to make the unchanging nature of his purpose very clear to the heirs of what was promised, he confirmed it with an oath. 18God did this so that, by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled to take hold of the hope set before us may be greatly encouraged. 19We have this hope as an anchor for the soul, firm and secure. It enters the inner sanctuary behind the curtain, 20where our forerunner, Jesus, has entered on our behalf. He has become a high priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek.

1 John 5:9-14 NIV / Psa 21:4 NIV We accept human testimony, but God’s testimony is greater because it is the testimony of God, which he has given about his Son. 10Whoever believes in the Son of God accepts this testimony. Whoever does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because they have not believed the testimony God has given about his Son. 11And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. 14This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us.

 

[ATP]

36 As it is written: “For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.”
37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us.
38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers,
39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Paul is speaking about himself, all the disciples and Apostles who were suffering for the sake of spreading the good news of the gospel to others. If we were to follow the Apostles, should we not also suffer trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? The Apostles were the first fruit in Christ and they suffered terribly. However, he was also saying that nothing can separate us from the love of God. That is why Christ died. John 3:16. That does not mean that mankind is going to receive him or when they do...it does not mean that they will remain in his love. Some folks just want to have their cake and eat it too because it is too hard for them to endure to the end. 1 Corinthians 4:12, 1 Corinthians 9:12, 2 Thessalonians 1:4 2 Timothy 2:12, 2 Timothy 4:5, Hebrews 6: 13-15, James 1:12, James 5:11

Right, and the elect are born again christians Rom 8:33 ESV. Nothing can separate the elect from God.

Now you're really reaching ATP, there is nothing parabolic about Hebrews 6 at all, it is a statement of fact. Verses 7 & 8 may indeed be metaphorical but that's not the same thing. Again you seem to have a hard time understanding the different grammar being used in this section of scripture?
What Luke says here in verses 7 & 8 is no different than what he writes in Luke 8:11-15.


No, what is to come is what he said it is, ETERNAL LIFE.

If you actually understood all this that you cut and pasted into this post then I would say Bravo but I doubt very much you looked at it with a unbiased eye.
It's probably best that you get a handle on what actually is being said here instead of trying to use other commentators to support what you're not even sure you know.

Post 205, 208. I don't think I'm reaching at all. I think it makes complete sense.

 

[StanJ]

Confidence comes through believing...
Heb 6:9 NLT Dear friends, even though we are talking this way, we really don't believe it applies to you. We are confident that you are meant for better things, things that come with salvation.

You're absolutely right, confidence does come from believing... In God. It doesn't come from believing in fallacious doctrine. It doesn't come from equivocating about what the word of God actually says. It comes from rightly dividing the word of Truth and understanding what God is saying in his word.
However many English translations you want to use or try to make say what you think it says, it won't. Luke clearly knows the people he is addressing and he knows that what he warned them about doesn't apply to them. But it did apply to the people he knew of and depicted here, and that's why he warned about it. Unless of course you think that Luke just liked to see his words written on paper?

 

[ATP]

You're absolutely right, confidence does come from believing... In God. It doesn't come from believing in fallacious doctrine. It doesn't come from equivocating about what the word of God actually says. It comes from rightly dividing the word of Truth and understanding what God is saying in his word.
However many English translations you want to use or try to make say what you think it says, it won't. Luke clearly knows the people he is addressing and he knows that what he warned them about doesn't apply to them. But it did apply to the people he knew of and depicted here, and that's why he warned about it. Unless of course you think that Luke just liked to see his words written on paper?

Once we believe we may know we have what Stan?

I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. 14This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us.

 

[StanJ]

Post 205, 208. I don't think I'm reaching at all. I think it makes complete sense.

That much is obvious, but we're telling you it doesn't make any sense and that you're basically a eisegeting the word of God. If it made sense there would be a lot more than just two here that thought it did.

 

[Angelina]

Crossing over from death to life is not based on a near death experience. It's based on believing in who Jesus Christ is.
John 5:24 NIV “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

It was just a play on words but what I was meaning had more to do with baptism. Romans 6:4

 

[StanJ]

Once we believe we may know we have what Stan?
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. 14This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us.

Hebrew 9:27 ATP?

 

[ATP]

That much is obvious, but we're telling you it doesn't make any sense and that you're basically a eisegeting the word of God. If it made sense there would be a lot more than just two here that thought it did.

Then God is a liar. The promise of eternal life doesn't come with salvation.

Hebrew 9:27 ATP?

We discussed this remember. You are confusing the promise of eternal life now, and when it will be revealed to us. Focus on the word reveal.

 

[Angelina]

Right, and the elect are born again christians Rom 8:33 ESV. Nothing can separate the elect from God.

Paul again is speaking about himself and the disciples and Apostles of that time. They were persecuted terribly for the sake of bringing the gospel to the world...You seem to imply that New believing Christians can sit on their laurels and not grow from there. This is not what the bible teaches. We are to also endure to the end just as those before us endured. 1 Corinthians 4:12, 1 Corinthians 9:12, 2 Thessalonians 1:4 2 Timothy 2:12, 2 Timothy 4:5, Hebrews 6: 13-15, James 1:12, James 5:11

 

[StanJ]

John 11

11 After he had said this, he went on to tell them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up.”

12 His disciples replied, “Lord, if he sleeps, he will get better.” 13 Jesus had been speaking of his death, but his disciples thought he meant natural sleep.

14 So then he told them plainly, “Lazarus is dead, 15 and for your sake I am glad I was not there, so that you may believe. But let us go to him.”

23 Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.”

24 Martha answered, “I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”

25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; 26 and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?”

27 “Yes, Lord,” she replied, “I believe that you are the Messiah, the Son of God, who is to come into the world.”

 

[StanJ]

Then God is a liar. The promise of eternal life doesn't come with salvation.

No, you just like equivocating. The promise is definitely real as is eternal life, we just don't receive them at the same time.

We discussed this remember. You are confusing the promise of eternal life now, and when it will be revealed to us. Focus on the word reveal.

Well you posted, I responded, but I doubt very much it can be considered a conversation because you don't pay attention. The only confusing going on here is how you keep vacillating back and forth. As I just said above and as I have said before, the promise is now or when we are saved, and eternal life happens when Jesus returns. We don't have eternal life now because the Bible says we all die once. Heb 9:27.
Jesus said we all die as I just posted above. In fact, in Lazarus's case he died twice, as did all the people in Matthew 27:52-53 .
So who's right ATP you or Jesus?

 

[mjrhealth]

Why is it that christians spend more time finding reason as to why God cant save them than excpeting that He can. What is wrong with Gods plan for salvation, it seems to have a major flaw in it, consideroing teh conversation, was Christs death not enough, what more does God neeed to do to save us????

 

[Angelina]

willing participants.... :unsure: