God’s grace, plus the believer’s part: enduring faith, works, obedience!

[justaname]

Yes, discipleship is very important. Something the Churches should have as a program in their church. I also think that new believers need to be part of a body of Christ to grow. Some just get saved and then try to work things out for themselves...

In our church we do not refer to it as a program. Programs don't work is what is always said. Yet we disciple as what we do and who we are as a church. I am meeting a new disciple tomorrow morning. Pray for me.

Our goal is to go outside the congregation and make more disciples. We are just beginning to see that happen. It is very exciting!

BTW the church is called Berean Bible Church...

 

[Angelina]

You're accusing Christians of being lazy because they follow a belief you disagree with.

If you read your bible you will see that believers did not just get saved...many changed their lifestyles, supported the Apostles, became part of the gathering of breaking bread and sharing everything they had. Many went and preached to others. I liked this story ~ Luke 9:49-50

Again, more accusing.

Your strategy is not going to work on me...This is not an accusation. It is an observation. There are plenty of believers that I know personally who believe in this doctrine and are still living an unrepentant lifestyle.

We already have received the imperishable crown when we believed and became born again Angelina. What does "born of God" mean here. Notice the word "believe". What are we believing in? 1 Pet 1:23 NIV For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God. 1 John 5:1 NIV Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves the father loves his child as well.

You will receive the crown in heaven, not here on earth because we still live in the flesh. The crown is something we are looking forward to...2 Timothy 4:8, James 1:12, 1 Peter 5:4, Revelation 20:10, Even Jesus was crowned after his ascension into heaven. Hebrews 2:9

It has to do with the way you look at the Gospel message. God is love!

It is the way that all believers should look at the gospel. Like the Berean believers in Thessalonica, we should be wary of all doctrine other than which was taught by the Apostles. God is love indeed and believers have a covenant with him which he he brought forth through his son's redeeming work on the cross.

 

[Angelina]

In your post you stated God supernaturally saved you from certain death. You were in water over your head literally, and you were drowning. You said He did this because He has a plan for your life. I say no doubt plans to glorify Himself and His great name.

My question then is what if you were metaphorically drowning? What if somehow you got in over your head in sin? Would this change His plan for you? What if your faith stammers? Would our God that saved your physical life for His plan allow your spiritual life to drown without supernaturally intervening?

God is more faithful and more jealous than any created being. How fierce will a mother lion fight for her cubs? How much more adamant is the Father in keeping and protecting His own? If we as mere human parents know how to protect our children from danger that leads to death, how much greater does the Father have the ability and desire to do the same when it comes to our eternal fate?

Those God intends to save will be saved because like you said, He has a plan for them. And His plan is to glorify the name above all names, Jesus Messiah.

Does this give us liscense to sin? Never! Are we immune from the effects of not having faith? No! Yet His children are chastened not rejected. Salvation is not about us, it never has been. Salvation is about Him and how gracious and merciful He is.

I can only speak for myself ...God has intervened on my behalf when I have walked or are about to walk off the path somewhere. He has done this through warnings. These warning have come in the form of dreams and visions. Sometimes divine appointments with believers who have spoken a word of God in season about a situation I may be involved in. Sometimes through his word or a prophecy being spoken in Church. Even though they have had no idea what my situation may be...God knows...He's not going to rescue me from something I am doing that is not consistent with the walk he has prepared for me. He warns me, then I have to do something about it. I repent and turn away from that situation or pathway.

Those God intends to save will be saved because like you said, He has a plan for them

That is correct however, it depends on our ability to come into obedience with his will. We are under a covenant.

 

[Angelina]

In our church we do not refer to it as a program. Programs don't work is what is always said. Yet we disciple as what we do and who we are as a church. I am meeting a new disciple tomorrow morning. Pray for me.

Forgive me for calling something a program. :unsure: I come from another country and cannot think of another word that describes training or teaching new believers... We call them discipleship courses here...praying for you!

Our goal is to go outside the congregation and make more disciples. We are just beginning to see that happen. It is very exciting!

Evangelism ~ nice!

 

[Angelina]

Angelina, on 19 Mar 2016 - 4:10 PM, said:

Some just get saved and then try to work things out for themselves...

More accusing.

...now your just being obnoxious :unsure: Debate with me by all means but please reserve the accusation strategy for someone else..

 

[StanJ]

Please help me understand where I went wrong, we can go from there.

I have been trying to help you ever since I took you off my ignore list and said I was going to try to reason with you but apparently reason is not your forte so there's nothing more I can help you with. I'll just address you when you're wrong and tell you what's right but I won't bother arguing with you.

 

[StanJ]

If you've received the Holy Spirit, then you must know you have eternal life.
1 John 5:13 NIV I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

I don't operate in knowledge ATP, I operate in faith, which all Christians are supposed to do. I don't need to know I just believe what God says is true.

By the way you don't have a crown until you actually receive it remember? Or have you changed your mind already?

 

[StanJ]

Then God is a liar. The promise of eternal life doesn't come with salvation.

Obviously God is not a liar but you'd rather believe that than believe that you're wrong. That ought to tell you something. It sure tells me something.

We discussed this remember. You are confusing the promise of eternal life now, and when it will be revealed to us. Focus on the word reveal.

We have not discussed this and as a matter of fact you keep avoiding the question. I also made it very clear to you that I'm not confused about anything but you seem to have a nasty habit of projecting your confusion on other people? All you do by avoiding my question is to show that you're totally inculcated in your dogma and can't really see the truth.

 

[StanJ]

You're accusing Christians of being lazy because they follow a belief you disagree with.

Have you not read the parable of the ten virgins or the parable about the talents. If you have read them then apparently you didn't get it?

 

[ATP]

Have you not read the parable of the ten virgins or the parable about the talents. If you have read them then apparently you didn't get it?

Parables are not historical facts. Otherwise, we would all know what happens after we die in Luke 16:19-31. Jesus dying for all sins is a historical fact.

 

[justaname]

Forgive me for calling something a program. :unsure:I come from another country and cannot think of another word that describes training or teaching new believers... We call them discipleship courses here...praying for you!

Evangelism ~ nice!

The phrase program is used throughout the Church, no need to forgive. The word just has a bad connotation for some reason at Berean, and I don't even know why.

Back to your statements. When God challenged your walk with dreams and such you reacted as His child proving your faith like James teaches. This I believe all His children do. Those who fail to heed His warnings prove their lack of faith, showing not to be His children.

God does use warnings in a very real sense for correction of His children and to speak of the fate of those who are not His children. Sometimes it is out of the fear of the Lord that we as His children act, and this is ok; fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. This reflects the beginning of our walk with the Lord for most. Some stay here never fully experiencing the joy, peace, and confidence God has offered in His word. Perfect love casts out fear; the greatest command is to love the Lord our God. This reflects a mature walk with the Lord as true love for God is perfect in its ways. We are called to have confidence in His promises as well as respect for His warnings. We come into His presence with praise and thanksgiving as well as boldness because we come in the name of Christ. We are there in His righteousness, not our merit, while covered by His blood.

This is why I do not believe you can "lose" salvation. Those who do not heed His warnings are not being saved by Him. These are not trusting His warnings proven by their actions or lack of. These do not have faith and it is evident as James teaches, thereby they never had salvation to lose.

 

[Angelina]

Back to your statements. When God challenged your walk with dreams and such you reacted as His child proving your faith like James teaches. This I believe all His children do. Those who fail to heed His warnings prove their lack of faith, showing not to be His children.

The bible teaches us that God is patient toward us, not wanting anyone to perish. Sometimes those who fail to heed God's warnings are not trained enough to distinguish between good and evil yet. Particularly those who have come straight out of the world. This comes with maturity. This is also where, I believe sometimes God allows the new believer to fall so that they will understand that there are consequences to our actions and repent. God disciplines his children so they we may share in his holiness and produce a harvest after we have been trained by it. This does not prove that those who fail are not his children but rather that they are still at a learning stage. Take Peter for instance. Jesus told him that he would deny him three times and he did. That did not mean excommunication from the Apostles but deep sorrow which led to repentance. Where there is life, there is hope in God.

God does use warnings in a very real sense for correction of His children and to speak of the fate of those who are not His children. Sometimes it is out of the fear of the Lord that we as His children act, and this is ok; fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. This reflects the beginning of our walk with the Lord for most. Some stay here never fully experiencing the joy, peace, and confidence God has offered in His word. Perfect love casts out fear; the greatest command is to love the Lord our God. This reflects a mature walk with the Lord as true love for God is perfect in its ways. We are called to have confidence in His promises as well as respect for His warnings. We come into His presence with praise and thanksgiving as well as boldness because we come in the name of Christ. We are there in His righteousness, not our merit, while covered by His blood.

This is why I do not believe you can "lose" salvation. Those who do not heed His warnings are not being saved by Him. These are not trusting His warnings proven by their actions or lack of. These do not have faith and it is evident as James teaches, thereby they never had salvation to lose.

Lack of action does not necessarily mean a lack of faith particularly in this instance.

I think that a believer can lose their salvation particularly when they choose not to grow from that point of salvation, ignore God's promptings and warnings, do not bear any fruit, continue to practice sin and not repent....God is very patient with people so I believe that he would have warned them many of times before this occurs and even then, he would be still calling them to repent....

 

[Zachary]

Romans 6 confuses so many people.
They read, "shall we continue in sin, God forbid" and then just stop reading.
They don't understand that the chapter is saying we aren't accountablr for our sins
because Christ paid the price and we are looked at as dead to sins by God.

Sorry, read it again ... Paul warns:
Choose to be slaves of God (not slaves of sin), or else!

 

[Zachary]

You (the ATP) really have no idea about context do you?

All posts written by the ATP,
and all posts replying to him,
and a total waste of time!
But, carry on, if you must.

 

[Angelina]

please keep to the topic thanks folks. This is a good subject and members must try to stick the issues at hand. Thank you.

 

[Zachary]

... was Christs death not enough, what more does God neeed to do to save us????

Nothing ... He has done His part.
It is up to believers to do their part.

There have NEVER been ANY one-sided covenants!
And believers today are up to their eye-balls in God's new covenant,
which majors in the arrival of His Messiah and His indwelling Spirit,
which was given to us to help us make it all "the Way" home!
Butski, we must do our part ... and co-operate with Him.

Most western churches have been preaching false doctrine,
such as OSAS and a pre-tribulation rapture.
So, believers think they are saved and going to be raptured.
Neither is true for many of today's western believers.

That's the reason for Jesus' warning to those
in the Laodicean church in Revelation 3.

 

[Zachary]

This is more about a specific doctrinal viewpoint. It has nothing to do with unbelief.

The writer of Hebrews makes a big point of DISOBEDIENCE is UNBELIEF.
Disobedience of what?
Of following Jesus' gospel, which includes obeying His commands.
He said, "If you love Me, obey My commands."
He said, "If you love Me, do what I say."
And etc.
Is anyone going to heaven who doesn't love Jesus?
Ergo, is anyone going to heaven who doesn't obey His commands?

 

[Angelina]

The writer of Hebrews makes a big point of DISOBEDIENCE is UNBELIEF.
Disobedience of what?
Of following Jesus' gospel, which includes obeying His commands.
He said, "If you love Me, obey My commands."
He said, "If you love Me, do what I say."
And etc.
Is anyone going to heaven who doesn't love Jesus?
Ergo, is anyone going to heaven who doesn't obey His commands?

That is your opinion Zachary and your entitled to it however, I was addressing MJr with this point ~

Mjr ~ it's nothing to do with unbelief, it has to do with a particular doctrine trying to pass it'self off as a generally accepted theory...

 

[justaname]

The bible teaches us that God is patient toward us, not wanting anyone to perish. Sometimes those who fail to heed God's warnings are not trained enough to distinguish between good and evil yet. Particularly those who have come straight out of the world. This comes with maturity. This is also where, I believe sometimes God allows the new believer to fall so that they will understand that there are consequences to our actions and repent. God disciplines his children so they we may share in his holiness and produce a harvest after we have been trained by it. This does not prove that those who fail are not his children but rather that they are still at a learning stage. Take Peter for instance. Jesus told him that he would deny him three times and he did. That did not mean excommunication from the Apostles but deep sorrow which led to repentance. Where there is life, there is hope in God.



Lack of action does not necessarily mean a lack of faith particularly in this instance.

I think that a believer can lose their salvation particularly when they choose not to grow from that point of salvation, ignore God's promptings and warnings, do not bear any fruit, continue to practice sin and not repent....God is very patient with people so I believe that he would have warned them many of times before this occurs and even then, he would be still calling them to repent....

Here we agree mostly. I was speaking in finality terms like in the case of eventual apostasy or a of life of unrepentant sin (this unrepentant sin is difficult for us to qualify though as we all wrestle with sin throughout our lives). I think we need to be slow to judge but quick to encourage especially in the case of new believers. We can not know for sure who is saved, so we must continue to warn and encourage. Really the only section where we disagree would be this last bit where you say "they choose not to grow from that point of salvation." I say there was never a point of salvation if they do not grow or if they bear the fruit of apostasy.

 

[ATP]

Zach, I believe in OSAS and that believers are raptured after the great tribulation in Matt 24:29-31. Good works without the blood of Christ = Lake of Fire buddy. John 3:3.