It doesn't matter how many verses are how often you quote them if you don't understand them properly. Not one of these says that we actually have eternal life in our bodies and the fact that Hebrews 9:27 says we will die shows that we don't actually have eternal life. How is that so hard to get or understand? You only receive eternal life when Jesus returns just as Paul said. You ignore these verses but cherry-pick verses that you think support your POV when in actuality it doesn't and only shows that you have a bad habit the eisegeting.ATP said:
John 3:14-16 NIV Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
John 5:24 NIV “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.
John 6:40 NIV For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”
John 6:47 NIV Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life.
John 6:54 NIV Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.
John 10:25-30 NIV / Prov 1:33 NIV Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, 26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30I and the Father are one.”
Acts 13:46-48 NIV Then Paul and Barnabas answered them boldly: "We had to speak the word of God to you first. Since you reject it and do not consider yourselves worthy of eternal life, we now turn to the Gentiles. 47 For this is what the Lord has commanded us: " 'I have made you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth.' " 48 When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.
Eph 1:13-14 NIV And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.
1 Tim 1:15-16 NIV Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst. 16But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life.
Tit 1:1-3 NIV Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ to further the faith of God’s elect and their knowledge of the truth that leads to godliness— 2in the hope of eternal life, which God, who does not lie, promised before the beginning of time, 3and which now at his appointed season he has brought to light through the preaching entrusted to me by the command of God our Savior,
Heb 9:12 NIV He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption.
1 John 5:9-14 NIV / Psa 21:4 NIV We accept human testimony, but God’s testimony is greater because it is the testimony of God, which he has given about his Son. 10Whoever believes in the Son of God accepts this testimony. Whoever does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because they have not believed the testimony God has given about his Son. 11And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. 14This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us.
God’s grace, plus the believer’s part: enduring faith, works, obedience!
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Well, it does matter because those verses come straight from the Word of God. You're confusing the promise we have now to when the promise will be revealed to us. Why?StanJ said:
justaname
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Yes but where in the Hebrews 6:4-6 does it use this language? Let me answer for you. No where.StanJ said:
Stan, the word "have" is never used in the Greek here. It is inserted by translators to make the text convey the aorist tense.StanJ said:
This sentence makes no sense to me.StanJ said:
How exactly do you ascertain how I am acting? Why are you switching your subject from the author to me in your accusation?StanJ said:
Well I would hope so, thank you. People do use words to communicate what they are thinking. Apparently you believe I am doing a good job using words.StanJ said:
When you are guilty of your own accusations I will continue to use these words because I know you understand them. This way you will know what I am thinking.StanJ said:
You have yet to make one valid argument regarding this topic, and this above comment is far from one. Yet lets go back to where you stopped the discussion previously. From post #86StanJ said:
Are you stating God's glory is not relative or pertinent to His reasons for creation?
Your quote, "The Bible does not teach that we can lose our salvation other than by falling into apostasy,"
Here it is assessed that you believe the Bible teaches we can lose salvation by falling into apostasy.
Your equivocation, "but I have always made it clear that apostasy is not the same as losing salvation."
Here you assert losing your salvation is not the same as apostasy.
Earlier in this thread you said "I see nothing in the New Testament that warns about losing salvation."
What about apostasy which you believe results in loss of salvation?
The only thing I see being communicated here is the action is not equivalent to the result. What is your reasoning for communicating this and how does this relate to the discussion?
To answer your final question, an apostate person was never saved and was never going to be saved. The apostate is apostate from the Church, not salvation. The Church does not give salvation, God does.
Your quote, "I don't surmise anything, the Bible says that they were saved and then they fell away."
Where exactly does the Bible use language that specifically states without inference, some were saved then fell away?
justaname
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WW,Wormwood said:
It is a pleasure as always to discourse with you my friend. Let me state I understand a quick response from you is given here. This taken into account you glossed over the John passage. Jesus uses descriptive imagery His audience would be acutely accustomed to. I think you may want to re-read not even my post but the Scripture itself. Where Jesus makes this statement is in a different context:
25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father’s name, these testify of Me.
26 “But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.
27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
29 “My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.
30 “I and the Father are one.”
Yet I do understand again it was a quick response.
Now I do want to assert here just for your knowledge so our discourse might be clear and edifying that I am uncertain whether a "believer" can commit apostasy or not. It is my contention though that many wrestle with the faith for quite some time before coming to a full submission to God and surrender their faith/trust to/in Him. Thus the warnings given in the Bible are very real to a vast majority of professing "believers". I think you do know I hold to election, although maybe not in a classical Calvinistic sense. So then I do see God's saints with Him at the end of the age, all numbered and accounted for. God is not surprised at who is in heaven with Him from an eternal perspective, it is us who have a linear perspective of time.
I think I made this point with you before. Some may believe in vain. Would these be considered "believers" that went apostate?
No, I'm just seeing that you don't really have a solid grasp of what you believe and vacillate back and forth between promise and actual possession and I've spent quit a few posts and trying to get you to come clean and you still don't seem to want to do that for some reason that I really don't understand. It would have been really easy from the beginning if you would have just agreed that we don't have eternal life until Jesus returns but you don't do that. In any event in my opinion it's just part of a much larger issue that centers around RT.ATP said:
John 15
5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
Romans 11
21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
...because contrary to popular OSAS beliefs, man has a free will to continue in God's goodness or not to continue in his goodness.
1 Samuel 16:14
Now the Spirit of the Lord had departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the Lord tormented him.
2 Peter3
13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.
14 So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him. 15 Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him.
17 Therefore, dear friends, since you have been forewarned, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure position.18 But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever! Amen.
2 Timothy 4
3 For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine.Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 4 They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.
I know exactly what I believe Stan. I don't think I'm the one turning John 6:47 into a gigantic mess.StanJ said:
Your doing it again, you are twisting my words...where did I say that salvation is not a free gift and where did I add to it? :huh:
Is Hebrews not written to believers? If you don't think that people who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age are not believers, then we have no way of continuing this discussion because you are refusing to believe what is obvious and God's word.justaname said:
Yes that's right and because it is in the indicative mood, in English wa us the word 'have'. Are you trying to tell us that the translators of the NIV didn't know how to put this in functionally equivalent English?justaname said:
By your words. That wasn't born yesterday you know. I'm not doing that you're just stating that. This thing is I can't really tell if you deliberately try to obfuscate or you really don't understand common English?justaname said:
Just another example of how you try to twist things and turn them around. You know what I meant and you know this is not what I meant and if we can't have an honest straightforward conversation that I really see no point in continuing.justaname said:
My point was it's tantamount to a little school kid saying to some other school kid who gets the best of him, 'I know you are but what am I'. I have very little patience for this type of exchange especially from somebody who's supposed to be a moderator and know better.justaname said:
I'm not going to keep on rehashing things with you. If you don't understand then say so, don't try to put words in my mouth or equivocate about what I say.justaname said:
Everytime I ask you a simple and straightforward question you deflect, equivocate or obfuscate and never directly answer the question and quite frankly I'm getting sick and tired of doing the same thing with you all the time. If you're not going to discussed in the truly honest fashion then stop responding to my posts.
These passages are being used as metaphorical language. Metaphors and Parables are not historical facts. Jesus dying on the cross is a historical fact Angelina.Angelina said:
Rom 11:22 NIV - This passage is a metaphor. If we don’t continue in His goodness, it’s a sign that we never really took nourishment from the olive root. Remember, the natural branches (Jews) were only cut off because they never believed that Jesus was the Messiah, not because they believed at one time and then stopped. It’s the same with the wild ones (Gentiles). If we are not forever saved, we were never saved. In fact, Rom 11:16-24 NIV in its entirety is being used as a metaphor for God's relationship with non believing Jews and believing Gentiles..
2 Pet 3:17 NIV - Falling from your secure position is about how weak or strong your faith is. The words "you should fall from" and "you have fallen away" in 2 Pet 3:17 NIV, Gal 5:4 NIV is translated "ekpipto" which means to fall away, fade away, wither away or fall off from the straight course. Falling away from the straight course doesn't mean you can lose your salvation. It simply means that you're human.Angelina said:
Also, the term "secure position" is translated "steadfastness" which is translated "stérigmos" which means a setting firmly. Throughout life you will at times be firm in your faith or weak in your faith. The definition of steadfastness is to be fixed in direction or steadily directed, but the devil wants to knock you off your course 1 Pet 5:8 NIV.
Lastly, the lawless one is deceiving us here, but scripture clearly states that believers are no longer condemned as lawless. We are no longer of the antichrist spirit 2 Thess 2:3 NIV, 2 Thess 2:7-9 NIV, Heb 10:17 NIV, 2 Pet 2:7-8 NIV. Our faith can be tested, but the root will always be there James 1:3 NIV.
You got that right. Many people will say it takes more than believing to keep your salvation.Angelina said:
I'm not sure you really do but regardless of the fact that you think that John 6:47 is talking about reality as opposed to effectually, just shows that you really don't.ATP said:
I believe what the Word of God says. If you do not then, so be it. We're done here.StanJ said:
You think you believe in what you've been told it says but you obviously don't know what it actually says. There is a huge difference between the two.ATP said:
It's become painfully obvious since I took him off my ignore list that this is the reason he went in the first place.... he does this to everybody.Angelina said:
So it says, "once we believe we have eternal life" in many verses, but it doesn't really mean that? Interesting.StanJ said:
That is the most absurd thing I have ever heard.... :huh: Addition is not subtraction!ATP said:
NON-OSAS is adding to the gift by saying we can lose it. There is more to do than what Jesus died for. Adding the term "we can lose our salvation" to your doctrine is adding works salvation.StanJ said:
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