God’s grace, plus the believer’s part: enduring faith, works, obedience!

[Wormwood]

25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father’s name, these testify of Me.
26 “But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.
27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
29 “My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.
30 “I and the Father are one.”

Justaname,

Thanks for your response. Let me respond with a little more detail to this text. First, I maintain that this text is in reference to the crowd that is following Jesus in contrast to those who rejected Jesus. Remember, this text is directly connected to the healing of the blind man in John 9. The Pharisees were declaring that Jesus was a sinner and not from God after he had made the declaration that he was the "light of the world." To conclude the healing story, Jesus tells the Pharisees that he came so that those who were blind could see and that those who said, "we see" would remain blind. Thus, this is a confrontation with the religious leaders of the day who were claiming that Jesus was not from God.

That confrontation leads directly into this sermon that Jesus is the gate and the good shepherd. Contrary to what the Pharisees were saying about Jesus, he maintains that he is the way to God. Moreover, he declares that those who respond to his voice are his sheep and his sheep are the ones who belong to God. The point that Jesus is making in this dialogue is that those who commit to follow him belong to and are protected by God. Even though these Pharisees may cast them out of the synagogue (such as that which happened to the blind man), they still belonged to God. Their rejection from the synagogue did not mean rejection by God (which is what such an act was supposed to portray...it would be like someone being excommunicated from the church). Those who trusted in Jesus would certainly not fall through the cracks. All who trusted in Jesus would be protected by Jesus because he lays down his life for the sheep.

So, that is what this text is saying. Here is what it is not saying:

1. Christians will hear a subjective inner voice from Jesus. Jesus was speaking to those who were following him and listening to his teaching. That is what he means. It has nothing to do with post resurrection inner dialogue with Jesus, visions or anything of that nature. It simply means, those who belong to God will accept the teaching of Jesus (both then and now).

2. Christians cannot lose their salvation. This has nothing to do with the text. Jesus talking about someone being snatched out of the Father's hand has to do with the Pharisees throwing people out of the synagogue and saying they are cut off from the people of God (as we seen in chapter 9). Anyone who trusts in Jesus will be saved, no matter what the religious leaders of the world do or say. This has nothing to do with OSAS. This concept is completely foreign to the context. Trying to inject doctrines of eternal security into this text is to completely rip it out of context. The context is a debate with the Pharisees concerning Jesus being the light of the world and a declaration that the Pharisees are the ones who are blind.

​Now I do want to assert here just for your knowledge so our discourse might be clear and edifying that I am uncertain whether a "believer" can commit apostasy or not. It is my contention though that many wrestle with the faith for quite some time before coming to a full submission to God and surrender their faith/trust to/in Him. Thus the warnings given in the Bible are very real to a vast majority of professing "believers". I think you do know I hold to election, although maybe not in a classical Calvinistic sense. So then I do see God's saints with Him at the end of the age, all numbered and accounted for. God is not surprised at who is in heaven with Him from an eternal perspective, it is us who have a linear perspective of time.

Yes, I recall your views and I do not think we are very far off. I agree with you that God has foreknowledge and thus he is not surprised at who will endure and who will not. Yet, I would maintain that a person can have very real faith and turn from it. Of course, that person turning from the faith is something that God foreknows. However, it does not mean that the person did not have genuine faith. I simply reject the notion that there are various levels of faith (some that results in salvation and some that does not). Either a person really believes, or they do not. Again, I think multiple texts speak of those who were "washed" and have participated in the Holy Spirit. Thus, their faith is real and God's grace to them is real. Yet, I believe they can turn from it just as the Israelites that God rescued out of slavery in Egypt did not make it to the promised land, so those who are freed from slavery to sin can fall short of the promises of God because of their unbelief. I believe they served as a warning to us about the importance of remaining faithful. They were baptized through the Red Sea, participated in the bread from heaven and drank from the rock. Yet they died in the wilderness because of their lack of faith and we are warned about doing the same thing. I think Hebrews spells this out very vividly.

So, I dont think we should allow God's foreknowledge to cause us to question the reality of someone rejecting a very real faith and walk with Christ. I think this is why the plea of Revelation is so strong that these believers be faithful even to death so that they might receive the crown of life. God's foreknowledge is based on our actions....it does not determine our actions. Forknowledge does not equal predetermination. Rather it is simply the knowledge of how we will respond. Since we do not know the future, our savlation is made secure by our growing and remaining in Christ. The true children of God endure in the faith. Some have little faith but then grow and become mature and great men and women of God who endure to the end. Others have strong faith but fail to grow and allow the worries of the world and concerns of this life to cause them to drift away. So, we cannot look at a person or even ourselves and say, "I have the saving kind of faith so I need not worry." No, we are called to test ourselves, fix our eyes on Jesus and run the race as one who desires to get the prize. This is why we must take our growth in grace so seriously. Not even the Apostle Paul took his own salvation for granted. He should be an example to all of us.

 

[StanJ]

Ok, so you do not believe you can lose your salvation. That's good Stan.

As I've said many times, yes. However, as I've also said at the same time, you can walk away from your salvation by becoming apostate and that is clear by all the warnings we get to not fall away. Now people can either pay attention to those warnings or ignore them, that is their choice.

 

[ATP]

So you think that they had fallen from their pride? Didn't Satan fall because of his pride and his many trading???

If we'd didn't fall every once in while, we would be perfect like Jesus.

If you are unrepentant and you die in that condition...you are in trouble, believe me.

How can a believer stop believing when they have been sealed until redemption. Unbelief is directed towards those who are not born again.

 

[ATP]

As I've said many times, yes. However, as I've also said at the same time, you can walk away from your salvation by becoming apostate and that is clear by all the warnings we get to not fall away. Now people can either pay attention to those warnings or ignore them, that is their choice.

Then it's no longer a free gift, because we have to do something in order to keep our salvation. Jesus didn't pay the sin debt.

 

[StanJ]

Some have little faith but then grow and become mature and great men and women of God who endure to the end. Others have strong faith but fail to grow and allow the worries of the world and concerns of this life to cause them to drift away. So, we cannot look at a person or even ourselves and say, "I have the saving kind of faith so I need not worry." No, we are called to test ourselves, fix our eyes on Jesus and run the race as one who desires to get the prize. This is why we must take our growth in grace so seriously. Not even the Apostle Paul took his own salvation for granted. He should be an example to all of us.

Charles Templeton is a perfect example of Hebrew 6:4-6

http://blogs.thegospelcoalition.org/justintaylor/2013/05/09/charles-templeton-missing-jesus/

 

[StanJ]

Then it's no longer a free gift, because we have to do something in order to keep our salvation. Jesus didn't pay the sin debt.

Of course it's free and like any other gift people can return it. Your equivocation on the word 'work' is duly noted but doesn't really change what the bible conveys. Jesus paid the debt by dying for all sin, even the sins of those who don't accept him as Savior.

 

[justaname]

Is Hebrews not written to believers?

This question is irrelevant. We are discussing the subject of those who have once been enlightened...not the audience. My point is these could just as easily be viewed as the Jews during the incarnation as well as believers. I am not the one dogmatic about it really, yet you seem to be dogmatic about your view of them being believers.

If you don't think that people who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age are not believers, then we have no way of continuing this discussion because you are refusing to believe what is obvious and God's word.

Stan I completely agree it can be speaking of believers, yet I am uncertain if it truly is. Again the author could be speaking of Jews in Jesus' first visitation.

Yes that's right and because it is in the indicative mood, in English wa us the word 'have'. Are you trying to tell us that the translators of the NIV didn't know how to put this in functionally equivalent English?

No I am stating these 5 participles do not have the meaning of "attained" as you were attempting to infer.

By your words. That wasn't born yesterday you know. I'm not doing that you're just stating that. This thing is I can't really tell if you deliberately try to obfuscate or you really don't understand common English?


Just another example of how you try to twist things and turn them around. You know what I meant and you know this is not what I meant and if we can't have an honest straightforward conversation that I really see no point in continuing.


My point was it's tantamount to a little school kid saying to some other school kid who gets the best of him, 'I know you are but what am I'. I have very little patience for this type of exchange especially from somebody who's supposed to be a moderator and know better.

No need for bickering here...yet if you desire open honest discussion I would be more than happy to continue. I have no issues with any of the other members here. When it comes to my faith I am completely open and transparent. If you don't comprehend what I am saying I will try to restate it in a different manner. I simply will not comply with your bully tactics and red herrings you continually use. Here is a great example below. Once I bring you to a point where you must communicate clearly you back out of the discussion and blame me for something I am innocent of and what you are actually guilty of. Classic StanJ...

I'm not going to keep on rehashing things with you. If you don't understand then say so, don't try to put words in my mouth or equivocate about what I say.
Everytime I ask you a simple and straightforward question you deflect, equivocate or obfuscate and never directly answer the question and quite frankly I'm getting sick and tired of doing the same thing with you all the time. If you're not going to discussed in the truly honest fashion then stop responding to my posts.

See above.

 

[Angelina]

How can a believer stop believing when they have been sealed until redemption. Unbelief is directed towards those who are not born again.

James 1
2 Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him. 13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. 14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.

There are two types of people here. Both face temptation. One endures temptation and the other does not...or do you think one of them is not spirit filled? :huh: or maybe they are not Christians???

 

[Angelina]

If we'd didn't fall every once in while, we would be perfect like Jesus.

...isn't the the whole point of your theological belief? :huh:

and yet you said in post #62

I already told you that christians no longer "practice" sin because God's seed remains in them. My testimony says once I believe I have eternal life. Do you believe my testimony, or are you calling God a liar...

 

[StanJ]

This question is irrelevant. We are discussing the subject of those who have once been enlightened...not the audience. My point is these could just as easily be viewed as the Jews during the incarnation as well as believers. I am not the one dogmatic about it really, yet you seem to be dogmatic about your view of them being believers.

It is totally relevant because it's about believers. Luke was addressing believers and talking about believers. I'm dogmatic because Luke says they are. Only people of your ilk try to discount these people that Luke talks about as non-believers. Anyone who doesn't have a pre-formed opinion in this matter and reads this section understands that Luke is talking about true believers. Also the grammatical structure supports it as well.

Stan I completely agree it can be speaking of believers, yet I am uncertain if it truly is. Again the author could be speaking of Jews in Jesus' first visitation.

If you pay attention to everything that is conveyed in vs 4 - 6 you will note that it all relates to Jesus and the Holy Spirit. Everything that comes with the New Covenant.

No I am stating these 5 participles do not have the meaning of "acquire" as you were attempting to infer.

Well in my opinion the English word being 'have' connotes possession. The Greek word being used twice in this section is γεύομαι (geuomai), and conveys having had these experiences. Also it is very clear by the contents of this scripture that they are falling away from Jesus, which is explicitly shown at the end of verse 6....To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

No need for bickering here...yet if you desire open honest discussion I would be more than happy to continue. I have no issues with any of the other members here. When it comes to my faith I am completely open and transparent. If you don't comprehend what I am saying I will try to restate it in a different manner. I simply will not comply with your bully tactics and red herrings you continually use. Here is a great example below. Once I bring you to a point where you must communicate clearly you back out of the discussion and blame me for something I am innocent of and what you are actually guilty of. Classic StanJ...

You're right, there is no need for bickering, but your answers appear to do so which is why I get frustrated. It's not a matter of me not comprehending or understanding or getting it it's a matter of my words being twisted or rephrased or paraphrased when there's no need to. What I say is very clear and in very understandable vernacular. If you think I'm being a bully then report me to the appropriate moderator and able deal with me. I don't think I am being a bully nor am I using red herring tactics. Something you and Oz like to accuse others of all the time. What point was it you were actually trying to make because in my opinion all you were doing was regurgitating what you already said that I have already addressed?

 

[Angelina]

And what is your testimony? - ATP

Sorry...I did not see this comment a few pages back. Here is my testimony if you are interested ~

He Drew Me Out Of Deep Waters, He Rescued Me

When I was 8 years old, we lived in the woods [forest town] along with other families because my father worked in that industry at the time [forestry]. One day I was coming home from my friends house and I had to pass a creek. On this particular day, I happened to notice two girls around my age just standing there looking at something in the creek, so I went over to find out what they were doing. I saw another girl in the creek, thrashing around, drowning.

The two girls who were watching, were in a state of shock and could not move. I started to become that way as well because it was something that was too much for our little minds to take in. image


Anyway, as I was standing there, I heard a very loud male voice say to me "pick up the stick." I looked around and saw a stick on the ground so I picked it up. Then the voice said, "hold it out," so I held it out in front of me. Now this stick was only short and there was no-way that the drowning girl could get a hold of it...but as I held it out, it somehow extended across the water and the girl managed to grab a hold of it and I pulled her in.


It actually felt like nothing was at the end of that stick but anyway I pulled her back to the bank and she scrambled out. As she did this, I lost my footing and ended up in the creek myself and they walked off.

So here I was now drowning in that very creek that I had pulled the girl from. I could not swim at the time and all I could remember was the murky grayish water and the pretty green oxygen weed. After a while, I got tired as I could not keep my head above the water any longer, so I started to sink...knowing that I was going to die. It felt very peaceful and I was ready to die.

As I sank further down into the murky water, my breath began to run out and my lungs began to hurt...suddenly my feet hit something hard and smooth, like a platform. I was quickly lifted upwards until I broke the water line and began to breathe again.

It was very odd because now I was standing on something that I could not see, in midair, above the creek. The next thing I knew, I was moving forward very quickly towards the bank. The platform I was standing on, then disappeared and I dropped to the ground, landing with two feet on the bank...

I really did not know what had just happened but I knew my mother would be angry with me because I was completely, soaking wet!
So I went home and sure enough I was in trouble...Lol!

God loves me and he sent angels to bear me up on their hands, least I strike my foot against a stone. He did not want me to die because he has a plan for my life....This is only one of the many divine encounters where God has saved me from certain death...

I am still here because he loves me and I love him with everything I've got...because he lives, I live, Glory! ^_^

 

[ATP]

Of course it's free and like any other gift people can return it. Your equivocation on the word 'work' is duly noted but doesn't really change what the bible conveys. Jesus paid the debt by dying for all sin, even the sins of those who don't accept him as Savior.

How can you return it when it's sealed in you for life? That's a pretty good magic trick Stan. Even David Blaine can't pull that one off.

James 1
2 Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him. 13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. 14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.

There are two types of people here. Both face temptation. One endures temptation and the other does not...or do you think one of them is not spirit filled? :huh: or maybe they are not Christians???

These passages are simply stating a fact about sin, similar to Ezek 18:24 NIV, Ezek 33:11-16 NIV. Where do you see the word salvation?

...isn't the the whole point of your theological belief? :huh:

and yet you said in post #62

John is not referring to being perfect. He is talking about maturity in Christ.

 

[ATP]

God loves me and he sent angels to bear me up on their hands, least I strike my foot against a stone. He did not want me to die because he has a plan for my life....This is only one of the many divine encounters where God has saved me from certain death...

I am still here because he loves me and I love him with everything I've got...because he lives, I live, Glory! ^_^

Did this experience have you accept Jesus as your Savior. Thank you for sharing.

 

[Angelina]

Did this experience have you accept Jesus as your Savior. Thank you for sharing.

Yes...this was the beginning of an amazing walk with God. :)

 

[ATP]

Yes...this was the beginning of an amazing walk with God. :)

Praise God!

 

[Angelina]

These passages are simply stating a fact about sin, similar to Ezek 18:24 NIV, Ezek 33:11-16 NIV. Where do you see the word salvation?

13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”

Obviously speaking to believers. Unbelievers have nothing in their way that hinders them from indulging the flesh.

14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.

There is an obvious state of progression going here beginning at temptation to desiring to enticement to conception to sin [and the practice of it] and then to death. Believers can go from one state to another. The outcome for them is death.
Romans 6:13, Romans 6:16, Romans 6:22

1 Corinthians 15:56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.

Summarizing once again. A believer [someone who is saved] can go from being tempted by sin which eventually brings forth death.

John is not referring to being perfect. He is talking about maturity in Christ.

Oh really?? I thought you said that Christians cannot sin???

 

[ATP]

Ezek 18:24 NIV, Ezek 33:11-16 NIV. Where do you see the word salvation?

My point is that those passages are referring to what sin does. It has nothing to do with losing salvation.

Obviously speaking to believers. Unbelievers have nothing in their way that hinders them from indulging the flesh.

And when believers fall into sin, God disciplines and sanctifies us so as to not return to that sin again. It's the power of the Holy Spirit.

Obviously speaking to believers. Unbelievers have nothing in their way that hinders them from indulging the flesh.


There is an obvious state of progression going here beginning at temptation to desiring to enticement to conception to sin [and the practice of it] and then to death. Believers can go from one state to another. The outcome for them is death.
Romans 6:13, Romans 6:16, Romans 6:22

1 Corinthians 15:56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.

Summarizing once again. A believer [someone who is saved] can go from being tempted by sin which eventually brings forth death.

What does this have to do with our original faith? Sin brings death. Everyone knows this.

Oh really?? I thought you said that Christians cannot sin???

Jesus was the only perfect being Angelina. We learned that in what, 1st, 2nd grade? "Christians no longer sinning" has to do with maturity in Christ.

 

[Angelina]

I am amazed ATP that I have been able to hold a conversation with you for this long as I have a painful wrist and hand but everything seems to fly out the window when we are engaged in discussion about the things of God. Prayer would be most appreciated ~ Thanks. I will catch up to you later. Thanks for the great conversation. I need to have a nap as I've been up for 14 hours and I am off work due to this injury. Bless ya!

 

[ATP]

I am amazed ATP that I have been able to hold a conversation with you for this long as I have a painful wrist and hand but everything seems to fly out the window when we are engaged in discussion about the things of God. Prayer would be most appreciated ~ Thanks. I will catch up to you later. Thanks for the great conversation. I need to have a nap as I've been up for 14 hours and I am off work due to this injury. Bless ya!

God bless.

 

[justaname]

It is totally relevant because it's about believers. Luke was addressing believers and talking about believers. I'm dogmatic because Luke says they are. Only people of your ilk try to discount these people that Luke talks about as non-believers. Anyone who doesn't have a pre-formed opinion in this matter and reads this section understands that Luke is talking about true believers. Also the grammatical structure supports it as well.


If you pay attention to everything that is conveyed in vs 4 - 6 you will note that it all relates to Jesus and the Holy Spirit. Everything that comes with the New Covenant.


Well in my opinion the English word being 'have' connotes possession. The Greek word being used twice in this section is γεύομαι (geuomai), and conveys having had these experiences. Also it is very clear by the contents of this scripture that they are falling away from Jesus, which is explicitly shown at the end of verse 6....To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.


You're right, there is no need for bickering, but your answers appear to do so which is why I get frustrated. It's not a matter of me not comprehending or understanding or getting it it's a matter of my words being twisted or rephrased or paraphrased when there's no need to. What I say is very clear and in very understandable vernacular. If you think I'm being a bully then report me to the appropriate moderator and able deal with me. I don't think I am being a bully nor am I using red herring tactics. Something you and Oz like to accuse others of all the time. What point was it you were actually trying to make because in my opinion all you were doing was regurgitating what you already said that I have already addressed?

Stan there are times where you communicate things that might seem clear to you, but to the reader on the other side it is clear as mud. This is why I rephrase the words you use because this is how I comprehend what you are communicating so I am asking for verification of this understanding. Brother I am only trying to have a discourse not frustrate you even if we don't agree on some matters. I am not here to play word games or win arguments. I have always been here for discussion.

I do not understand why you are differentiating between the language "apostate" and "losing you salvation." The only thing I see being communicated here is the action is not equivalent to the result. What is your reasoning for communicating this and how does this relate to the discussion?

Your quote:
"If you pay attention to everything that is conveyed in vs 4 - 6 you will note that it all relates to Jesus and the Holy Spirit. Everything that comes with the New Covenant."

Exactly! And most Jews rejected their Messiah.

Your quote:
"It is totally relevant because it's about believers. Luke was addressing believers and talking about believers. I'm dogmatic because Luke says they are. Only people of your ilk try to discount these people that Luke talks about as non-believers. Anyone who doesn't have a pre-formed opinion in this matter and reads this section understands that Luke is talking about true believers. Also the grammatical structure supports it as well."

The audience is not the subject the author is speaking of in these verses verified by verse 9. Also you do not know if Luke wrote this epistle, yet if you want to believe he did go ahead. Now show me where the author of Hebrews specifically states those referred to in 6:4-6 are believers. You can not, you can only infer this from the text. You have the pre-formed opinion here Stan. Your "Luke says they are" is your inference not a literary fact.

How would the Jews this epistle was written to have understood this? When reading the Bible one should place their feet in the sandals of time, and try to surmise how the original recipients would have received the message, especially in the case of epistles.


4 Ἀδύνατον γὰρ τοὺς ἅπαξ φωτισθέντας, γευσαμένους τε τῆς δωρεᾶς τῆς ἐπουρανίου καὶ μετόχους γενηθέντας πνεύματος ἁγίου 5 καὶ καλὸν γευσαμένους θεοῦ ῥῆμα δυνάμεις τε μέλλοντος αἰῶνος 6 καὶ παραπεσόντας, πάλιν ἀνακαινίζειν εἰς μετάνοιαν, ἀνασταυροῦντας ἑαυτοῖς τὸν υἱὸν τοῦ θεοῦ καὶ παραδειγματίζοντας.
Aland, B., Aland, K., Karavidopoulos, J., Martini, C. M., & Metzger, B. M. (Eds.). (2014). The Greek New Testament (Fifth Revised Edition, Heb 6:4–6). Stuttgart, Germany: Deutsche Bibelgesellschaft.

Here is the Greek. The two times γευσαμένους is used it is rendered "have tasted." Have tasted of the heavenly gift. (Jesus) Have tasted the good word of God and and the powers of the age to come. (Jesus' testimony and preaching and His signs and wonders)