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ByGraceThroughFaith
Well-Known Member
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Answered it! Me is a word added that does not appear in the original. IOW it would be like me adding " I am an idiot" to one of your answers and then arguing you said you are an idiot!
If me is not in the original and you argue that point- you are arguing an irrelavency.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
ByGraceThroughFaith
Well-Known Member
ME is in the OLDEST and best textual support!
You cannot accept this because it destroys your warped theology on Jesus Christ!
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Save teh strawmen for those who care. So then show the manuscript evidence you obviously must know because you just claimed it.
ByGraceThroughFaith
Well-Known Member
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Still waiting for which manuscripts you said have "me" in them. Otherwise I have four manuscripts on line that do not have it and 21 English translations that do not include me.
Ball is still in your court. 197 is irrelavent.
ByGraceThroughFaith
Well-Known Member
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
So you want to make claims and when aksed to verify them- call the akser foolish? WOW! Noice way to not have to take responsibility for your words!
ByGraceThroughFaith
Well-Known Member
You are foolish when you are shown that the oldest and best Greek manuscripts have ME, and you completely ignore this because it destroys your theology!
This is what John 14:14 reads in the Greek manuscript P66, which is dated from between 100-200 AD, which is the oldest for this. Add to this the Codex Sinitacus and Codex Vatanicus, 4th cent. The Old Latin from the Greek, 2nd cent. the Latin Vulgate, 4th cent.
ἐάν τι αἰτήσητέ με ἐν τῷ ὀνόματί μου ἐγὼ ποιήσω
if anything you ask ME in My Name, I will do it
This is what is called, game, set and match
Praise the Lord!
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Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Well I thank you for finally providing teh information. No it doesn't destroy my theology in the least!
I follow the example Jesus Himself taught us to pray!
The Lord’s Prayer
Our Father who art in heaven,
hallowed be thy name.
Thy kingdom come.
Thy will be done
on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread,
and forgive us our trespasses,
as we forgive those who trespass against us,
and lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from evil.
For thine is the kingdom and the power, and the glory,
forever and ever.
Amen.
I will check out the varied codexes you refer to.
but as I said here are translations that exclude me:
New Heart English Bible
If you ask me anything in my name, I will do it.
World English Bible
If you will ask anything in my name, I will do it.
American King James Version
If you shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
American Standard Version
If ye shall ask anything in my name, that will I do.
A Faithful Version
If you ask anything in My name, I will do it.
Darby Bible Translation
If ye shall ask anything in my name, I will do it.
King James Bible
If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
New King James Version
If you ask anything in My name, I will do it.
King James 2000 Bible
If you shall ask anything in my name, I will do it.
Webster's Bible Translation
If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
Geneva Bible of 1587
If ye shall aske any thing in my Name, I will doe it.
Bishops' Bible of 1568
If ye shall aske any thing in my name, I wyll do it.
Coverdale Bible of 1535
Yf ye axe eny thinge in my name, I wyl do it.
Tyndale Bible of 1526
Yf ye shall axe eny thige in my name I will do it
Literal Standard Version
if you ask anything in My Name I will do [it].
Young's Literal Translation
if ye ask anything in my name I will do it.
Smith's Literal Translation
If ye ask anything in my name, I will do.
Worrell New Testament
If ye shall ask anything in My name, I will do it.
Worsley New Testament
If ye ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
Haweis New Testament
If ye ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
Mace New Testament
when ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
Anderson New Testament
If you ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
I do remember a grammar conflict with this passage. Personal pronouns in Greek construct occur after teh noun. Here in John 14 th efirst me does not so it is an error of construct.
Also it is improper grammar of Jesus to say ask me in my name!
It also defies the Lords Prayer and how Paul prayed throughout His epistles.
I do not believe God will reject prayers to the son, but until I look at your manuscript evidence we shall see.
Gloating is unbecoming on you .
Behold
Well-Known Member
Romans 1 teaches that God is clearly shown to be THERE, based on Creation being seen.
The fact is, you can't have creation without a Creator.
Reader, can a book write itself?
Can a song create itself.
Can a painting paint itself.
Can all the univers, = planets, stars, create themselves?
A.) No
ByGraceThroughFaith
Well-Known Member
the very first translation reads as ME!
I have given the Greek manuscript evidence which is the OLDEST and they read ME
I care less whether you accept the FACTS, as you are clearly self deluded in your heresies!
I will not ever respond to anything that you say
The point that I was making was that the creation is not God, but a mere image of the things of God and His dealings with men. On the contrary, we should not look to that which is created as being reality, but to the reality of the Creator...whose kingdom is not of this world.
And why is that important?
It is important, because if we are His children (or want to be) being born of the clay of this creation is not enough, but we must be born of Him. Which, if we are to understand...makes the spiritual essence of God most desirable, rather than the things of the flesh and the world, which even many so-called "Christians" seem to prefer.
In other words, if we speak against what is spiritual and for what is most natural for us being first born of the flesh and in the world, then our focus is all wrong. This is what Paul referred to by the "renewing" of our mind, that we should change our perspective.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Wow! See when I challenge someone who is qrong- it is to correct them and bring them up to snuff and rejoice. With you you beat down, condemn make false accusations and gloat like crazy- It is your kind of Christinaity that is causing myriads to fall away. I Am glad the Savior we serve is not as spiteful as you!
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
So please add me to your ignore list! I can debate hard and get a little nasty, but you take mean spiritedness to a whole new level. You should be proud you show yourself such a self righteous believer who instead of wanting to correct errors in their understanidng, you want to perform a beat down. This was the first time in this discussion you actually showed which manuscripts.
Oldest in manuscript evidence doesn't make it the most correct. But it appears you are correct. So go ahead and gloat you have bested me. You aren't the first and yopu won't be th elast!
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Well I found on line the argument I had studied. It doesn't include the manuscripts that do not have the first me, but I will seek to find them.
Microsoft Word - JOHN 14 14 v61 (thebibledomain.com)
But even though you will not accept anything I say, I put it out there for anyone who wishes to read.
The two me 's' are peculiar in several ways.
1. I already touched on the grammatic silliness of it.
2. I briefly touched on the biblical contradiction of it from Jesus own mouth! This article goes into much greater biblical detail where jesus command sthe disciples to ask the Father in His name.
3. The second me(my) is in the dative case and is out of place. As it is a pronoun to further define the noun (name) it should be in the possessive which is exactly what the first me is in! That is why so many of the early translations di dnot include it! It is simply out of place grammatically and biblically when compared with the rest of Jesus command concerning prayers of petitions.
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