God does not have a timeline.

[-Phil]

As I read through the titles on the eschatology forum here, all i see is the various timeline proponents declaring the other one false.... My belief is that they are all wrong, because they are assuming God is constrained by a timeline of His own making. Some use the verse in 2 Peter that says a day is as a thousand years to either support or deny their proposed timeline, when in fact it is meant to tell us that God has no timeline as he exists in eternity. Mortal man and the mortal mind of man has a hard "time" grasping this concept, so they insert time where God has not in the prophecies.

My point here is to all who are pushing a timeline of events, whether preterist amillennial or pre-millennial to go back and examine where you have inserted time when God has not in your timeline. In some aspects, you are all correct, in others, you are deceiving yourself.... Although I am a premillennialist myself, I believe the end times started right when Christ arose from the dead and ascended to heaven. That is the timescape of Revelation... So says Christ Himself...."Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;" (Revelation 1:19) So John, writing circa 95AD has had these things already happen in the past and has witnessed them, some things are happening at the time of his writing, and the things which will occur in the future to come. And the thing is, all of these prophecies can have multiple fulfillments in the past present and future.... for example the seven letters to the churches, were past churches, current churches and future church ages.

When an eternal being overlooks itself it assumes there is time.
When an infinite being overlooks itself it assumes there is form.
When an unconditional being overlooks itself it assumes there is my life.

 

[The Light]

No we are not, Jesus is PROPHESYING what will come when God's Wrath finally falls (Seal #6)

You still haven't figured out that Jesus returns at the 6th seal immediately after the tribulation of those days and then the 7th seal is opened, and the wrath of God begins.

and how the Anti-Christs rule will look over the same 42 month period of time, as seen in Seals 1-5. BUT BOTH can only happen when the 7th Seal is opened.

Not only incorrect but impossible according to the word.

It amazes me that you refuse to admit that a Sealed Letter/Message from a king can not be read from until all the Seals are off !! Seven (7) just means Divine Completion. This means God has these events SEALED UP, until He allows them to come to pass on His God time.

And yet Word tells us the 1st seal is opened and the rider on the white goes forth conquering and to conquer. Then the second seal is opened and the red horse. We don't have open all seven seals for the rider on the white horse to go forth only the 1st seal. Where do you come up with this stuff.

Thus when the 7th Seal is loosed we see the Asteroid coming in, in Rev. 8.

Of course we can, because the 7th seal is the wrath of God.

We see the 5 Million Jews in Rev. 7 fleeing to Judea and God saying HOLD UP the Four Winds (Judgments in Rev. 8) until they have been sealed in the head (Israel Repents). And HURT NOT the Trees, Seas nor the Earth until I have sealed them !! It is TOO EASY to interpret, just turn the page to Rev. 8, what HURTS the Earth, Sea and Trees?

I'm using KJV. My Bible doesn't say anything about 5 million Jews. It says 144,000 are sealed, not 5 million. You sure make a lot of stuff up. And that's where the confusion comes in. One error leads to another.

The incoming Asteroid !! Tie it all together man, don't stay stuck in the mud !! Seals 1-5 are ALL the Anti-Christs COMING 42 month rule.

Nope. Confused again you are. The rider on the white horse in the 1st seal is an Antichrist, not THE ANTICHRIST, the man of sin. The rider on the white horse is the 7th king. He gives his power to the eighth king who was and is not and yet is. And if you understood the word you would know who the Antichrist is.

You will never get it because pride keeps a man from saying I am wrong.

I'm not the one making things up. If the Word says that there are 144,000 first fruits from the 12 tribes that's what it means so how can I be wrong when I say the 144,000 are first fruits from the 12 tribes. You are claiming that it means 5 million Jews. There's no question who is wrong.

The same thing kept the Pharisees from understanding Jesus' teachings. They already knew it all. When you get to heaven, you will say "that man Ron" knew more about the End Times than anyone I ever knew. BANK IT.

You are so off base you can't even see it. Start over and read what it says and believe what the Word says and stop making things up and then you might have a chance to understand.

The Rapture is pre 70th week, not during the 70th week. You are confused my friend.

You just aren't following. The rapture of the Church is before the final week, no doubt. I showed that, It happens before the seals are opened. The second rapture happens at the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal. What do you think those 144,000 first fruits are all about. You have 1st fruits and then you have a harvest.

WRONG, verses 4-6 is about 70 AD and verses 6-14 is mostly about the first century, because its all about the disciples lives, the only reason we even get the "birth pangs" explanation is so they will understand the 70 AD events are NOT the end, therefore Jesus can say, do not come back in 70, its not the Second Coming or THE END, we have, this, this, this, and this coming and it will get progressively worse and worse like birth pangs, so 70 AD is not the end!! GET IT NOW MY DISCIPLES ? Stay Away !!

Matthew 24 talks end times. It lines up exactly with Revelation 6. There is no 70 AD in Matthew 24. The buildings of the Temple that are destroyed are about the future Temple that will be built.

You need to teach Sunday School lessons brother, not Prophecy.

If you are going to teach prophecy it would be wise to accept what is written and stop making things up.

The 144,000 is a CODE, just like the 7000, it looks like you would be smart enough to know God does not choose PERFECT NUMBERS. God uses these Numbers like 144,000 and 7000 to give us understandings like Fulness x Completeness or Divine Completeness x Completeness. Oh, you can get that the 10 Virgin Brides is the COMPLETE Church or 2 billion people, but you can't get that the 144,000 are 5 Million Jews. It is called TUNNEL VISION brother.

This is exactly what I am talking about....making things up. The 144,000 are 1st fruits of the harvest at the 6th seal. It is the same coming of Jesus as you see in Matthew 24, and it is also the coming of Jesus that you see in Revelation 14.

 

[ScottA]

As I read through the titles on the eschatology forum here, all i see is the various timeline proponents declaring the other one false.... My belief is that they are all wrong, because they are assuming God is constrained by a timeline of His own making. Some use the verse in 2 Peter that says a day is as a thousand years to either support or deny their proposed timeline, when in fact it is meant to tell us that God has no timeline as he exists in eternity. Mortal man and the mortal mind of man has a hard "time" grasping this concept, so they insert time where God has not in the prophecies.

My point here is to all who are pushing a timeline of events, whether preterist amillennial or pre-millennial to go back and examine where you have inserted time when God has not in your timeline. In some aspects, you are all correct, in others, you are deceiving yourself.... Although I am a premillennialist myself, I believe the end times started right when Christ arose from the dead and ascended to heaven. That is the timescape of Revelation... So says Christ Himself...."Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;" (Revelation 1:19) So John, writing circa 95AD has had these things already happen in the past and has witnessed them, some things are happening at the time of his writing, and the things which will occur in the future to come. And the thing is, all of these prophecies can have multiple fulfillments in the past present and future.... for example the seven letters to the churches, were past churches, current churches and future church ages.

Indeed, and what is even worse, is that many of the so-called prophecies of the "future" are written in [past] tense, indicating they are not at all future.

It is as if there is a type of people who only believe what they themselves have and will witness--otherwise it's not true, as they will tell you over and over kicking and screaming. And the "type" of people I have referred to...that type is written.

 

[The Light]

Have you ever thought about what Jesus said and what I have repeated unto you countless times? Jesus told his Disciples that he spoke unto them in Parables so hearing they would hear and seeing they would see, but THE WORLD hearing would not hear and seeing would not see !! And somehow this goes right over your head brother. Yo also PICK & CHOSE, its OK for the 10 Virgin Brides not to really be Virgins, or Women, but stand for the COMPLETE CHURCH, buts its not OK for the 12 x 12 x 10 x 10 x 10 or 144,000 to be COMPLETE Israel who repents, or 5Million Jews who repent, just as Zech. 13:8-9 tells us, we see 1/3 repenting, you just do not want to accept these facts. You do not want to see that the book of Revelation is a giant code book, because you already built "YOUR UNDERSTANDINGS" around other things.

So, I want to believe that the 144,000 are EXACTLY who God says they are, and you want to make something up because you don't think God can explain Himself clearly enough.

Psstt, WHO CARES, as long as we receive truth. The only difference between you and I is after 30 years I was able to say, Lord, I am WRONG on many, many things, show me YOUR TRUTHS, and it seems that you can not ever say, I am wrong,

I think it's time for you to have that talk with God again.

so God can not show you these things that He has shown me, you have too much invested in YOUR UNDERSTANDINGS. If you can not understand God doesn't chose those that get saved, but receives them by FAITH ALONE, then you may think that the 144,000 is an ACTUAL NUMBER, I guess, even though you have enough horse sense to understand the 10 Virgin Brides are not really 10 Virgin Women !! God doesn't chose PERFECT NUMBERS, He accepts ALL who come unto Him, thus the 10 Virgin Brides = 2 Billion people AND the 144,000 = 5 Million or so Jews because 1/3 repent in the very end times, as Zech. 13:8-9 shows us. The reason ALL Male Virgins are used is because God chose Israel first. God married Israel, Jesus will soon marry his bride the Church. So, its only DREAMING THINGS UP when you can't grasp it, the 10 Virgin Brides which = ALL Christendom, or 2 Billion is OK right? Wrong, both are FACTS. Just because you want to pick and choose, that is not how God works. You have and never will answer my point on the 10 Virgin Brides because you know it throws SHADE on your answer via the 144,000 it makes you look dodgy. Which is why I HAMMER you with it time and again. BOOM ###.

Through this folly of not accepting what is written you lose the truth that the 144,000 are first fruits of the second harvest that you are unable to see.

YET............Jesus says this in verse 14, it evades all of your senses it seems.

Matt. 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. {{ 70th Week, this fulfills the Time of the Gentiles calling }}

I know the Church is in Heaven, the 24 Elders are a STAND IN for the Church, they have on Crowns as promised in Rev. 2:10, White Robes as promised in Rev. 3:5 and sit amidst God's Throne as promised in Rev. 3:21. But it only happens AFTER Matt. 24:14 because WE THE CHURCH take the Gospel unto all the Nations, that is the Mantel God has given unto the Gentiles !! Or the Time of the Gentiles.

No. Matthew 24:14 has not evaded me in the slightest. Here you go.

Revelation 14
6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

I know this is out of you level of understanding but someday maybe you will catch on......These verses in Revelation 14 OCCUR DURING THE SEALS, just as Matthew 24:14 does.

 

[The Light]

All 7 Seals must be opened before the Trumpet Judgments Fall (God's Wrath)

exactly. but the 1st seal occurring does not requite the 7th seal to be opened.

It is on you that you can't understand Jesus is Prophesying what is about to come when he opens the Seals in Rev. 6.

It's not a requirement for me to understand something you have made up

But you do understand Joel 2:31 is a Prophesy don't you? But Jesus can not Prophesy via the 6th Seal !!

You have yet to figure out that Jesus returns at the 6th seal immediately after the tribulation of those days.

It should dawn on you that Rev. 8 is the Asteroid Impact that brings all this to pass, but alas, no, you already had an IDEA so this real truth can't be truth because it doesn't match "YOUR IDEAS" or what you learned from "OTHER MEN" and even via your protests, you know why I understand this all came from other men? Because I heard all of this stuff long before you did brother !! The fact you can't MATCH Joel 2:31 AND Seal #6 up to the Fourth Trump is utterly amazing.

LOL. Other men. Which men.

No. I can't match the sun and moon events to the 4th trumpet.

Joel 2:31
31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come.

This happens at the 6th seal and has nothing to do with the 4th trumpet.

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

The fourth trumpet cannot happen until the 7th seal is open. The 6th seal opens we have the signs of the sun, moon and stars. Jesus comes and sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth. Men see wrath getting ready happen which is the day of the Lord. Then the 7th seal is opened and wrath happens and eventually the 4th trumpet sounds and you get this:
Rev 8
And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.

These are not the same signs that occur at the 6th seal and in Matthew 24 before the day of the Lord.

Joel 2:30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.

31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come. 32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call. {{ In Zech. 13:8-9 its 1/3 or 5 Million Jews/Israelites }}

Rev. 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake(Asteroid Impact); and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs(Satan is CAST DOWN at the 1260 and chases Israel for 1260 days, in Joel 2 it cites DELIVERANCE), when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places(Asteroid Impact). 15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? (1260 days)

Then in Trump #1 we see the Fire that burns the trees and grasses (Houses) in 1/3 of the world or in the two Americas/New World. In Trump #2 we see THE IMPACT. In Trump #3 we see the Poisonous Fallout or Wormwood that poisons the fresh waters in the New World (1/3). Then we get the Sun and Moon going Dark in Trump #4, this is the Matt. 24:29 MIDDLE OF THE WEEK (1260) event. This is the Zechariah 14:1-2 MIDDLE OF THE WEEK (1260) event also. This is the Day of the Lord as Malachi 4:5-6 says will come just after Elijah calls Israel unto repentance !! This is the Day of the Lord spoken of by Jesus in the 6th Seal !!

Rev. 8:12 And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars(Smoke filters the SUN LIGHT, making it Darker); so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.

So, you not understanding the 6th Seal is Jesus FORETELLING this coming Day of the Lord event that matches Joel 2:31 AND Jesus' 6th Seal Prophesy is on you sir. Granted many others are in error also, but the Lord shows me His deep secrets, just as he showed me in a Vision in 1986 that the "Man of Sin is Here" who knows why God chooses whom he choses, but He does what He does. My calling is my calling. You are not called unto Prophecy or you would see truths when presented unto you. You only see your ideas brother, you can not get past them, so God can not use you via Prophecy.

You have completely messed this up. You are totally and completely lost. A blind man can see better brother. What in the world. You have the 4th trumpet happening at Matt24:29. That means you think that Jesus is coming at the 4th trumpet to gather the elect from heaven and earth.

Jesus stays in the clouds and sends His angels to gather the elect before the wrath of God. He does not come at the 4th trumpet.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

You are extremely confused brother. Jesus does not return at the 4th trumpet. He returns at the 6th seal. Then the wrath of God begins when the 7th seal is opened.

 

[The Light]

No they are not, this is nonsensical, we see the Birth Pangs starts in the Disciples time, he says to his Disciples they will KILL YOU. And you can not put the TIMELINE STAMP on when that starts just Wow !! That came from other men, I saw it long before you ever did, in the early 80s. I had to disprove it myself long ago.

You mean to tell me you forced yourself off the path into a ditch. Now you think Jesus returns at the 4th trumpet.

The 5th Seal happens during the 70th week, but BEFORE the Great Tribulation starts via the Trumpet Judgments, so Jesus opens the Seals in the Presence of the Pre Trib Raptured Saints, but you can't understand that Matt. 24:6-14 is the Church Age Saints dying, and the Disciples being told they would all be hated, and killed !!

I heard all this stuff years ago. I think this is what everyone was teaching. All you have to do is read Revelation 6 and Matthew 24 and realize they match EXACTLY. And why wouldn't they. Both Jesus and John are talking end times. You should expect them to match.

Nor can you get that the Church is the only entity that takes the Gospel unto the whole world or Nations, after we are Raptured an Angel takes this mission over, see Rev. 14:6 !!

I already posted it. And yet part of Israel has its eyes opened when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. So the seed of the woman, (twelve tribes across the earth) are spreading the truth among themselves.

Again, the reason God can not use you on Prophesy is your ideas are ALL IMPORTANT, so you can't hear His truths !!

I read out loud many times. I hear pretty good. Meanwhile you are making up things that aren't in the Word. Try reading what is written and just accepting what is written. Making stuff up when we already have the answer given to us is worse than fruitless.

It is not your calling brother.

Brother, for being a self-proclaimed expert you are awfully confused. You need to start over beginning with what Jesus tells you in Matthew 24 is what John tells you in Revelation 6. Throw out your conclusions and just read what it says.

The 5th Seal FORETELLS of the Martyrs of the Gentile Remnant Church, who get saved during the 70th week, but it can only happen after the 1260, after Satan gets cast down, as seen in Rev. 8, after the Asteroid Impact, via the 1260, God's Wrath comes with the Asteroid Judgment. This escapes you it seems. You like to dabble, your zeal is there but you lack knowledge.

The 5th seal is talking about the Jews that are killed during the great tribulation. When the woman, Israel flees to the place of protection, the dragon goes after her seed which is the 12 tribes across the earth that now have the testimony of Jesus. The 70th week is about the people of Daniel. The Church is in heaven BEFORE the seals are opened.

Daniel 9
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

You still haven't figured out that Jesus returns at the 6th seal immediately after the tribulation of those days and then the 7th seal is opened, and the wrath of God begins.

Rev. 16:19 And the great city (Jerusalem) was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell:(Jesus Returns to defeat the Nations/Great Babylon/Whole World) and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

Jesus returns at the 7th Vial, which ends the 3rd Woe, it comes into being via the 7th Trumpet. The SEALS DO NOTHING, you aren't even in the Greatest Ever Troubles via the 6th Seal. That is opened JUST BEFORE the Jews flee Judea in Rev. 7, at the 1290, which is 30 days before the 1260. You aren't even in the right half of the 70th week. Prophesy is not your calling brother.

Not only incorrect but impossible according to the word.

You might better back up a bit because in essence you are calling the one who Wrote the book of Revelation (God the Father) a fibber sir. You do not understand it, do not compound your mistakes.

And yet Word tells us the 1st seal is opened and the rider on the white goes forth conquering and to conquer. Then the second seal is opened and the red horse. We don't have open all seven seals for the rider on the white horse to go forth only the 1st seal. Where do you come up with this stuff.

He will, when its TIME, but all 7 Seals must be loosed first, that is why the 7th Seal is over in Rev. 8, AFTER the Jews who repent have been SEALED (Saved & Protected) by God in Rev. 7, thus they HOLD UP the four winds (Judgments) that will HURT the Earth, Sea and Trees [in Rev. 8] until we get them Sealed. Me understanding the seals are Prophesies, and you not understanding this is just proof you are not called unto prophesy brother.

Seal #6 is Jesus prophesying that God's Wrath will come soon, with an event (asteroid) that makes the Sun and Moon darken by 1/3. Seals 1-5 is Jesus prophesying that the Anti-Christ/Little Horn/Beast will only then be allowed to go forth Conquering for 42 months. So, he Conquers, Takes away Peace, Which bring Famine, His rule brings Sickness/Death, and he Martyrs the Gentile Saints, all of these run concurrent, thus over his 42 month reign. Which happens only as God's Wrath falls.

Of course we can, because the 7th seal is the wrath of God.

No, it opens the Scroll of Judgments, the Trumps, which is the Wrath of God. The 6th Seal only points to the coming Trumps which are the Wrath of God.

I'm using KJV. My Bible doesn't say anything about 5 million Jews. It says 144,000 are sealed, not 5 million. You sure make a lot of stuff up. And that's where the confusion comes in. One error leads to another.

That is because you have no clue about Prophecy, "Isaiah says HERE A LITTLE THERE A LITTLE.....you never git that message it seems. ANYONE that thinks 144,000 is 144,000 but the 10 Virgins = 2 Billion people is just someone not willing to face the truth. Zechariah 13:8-9 says 1/3 of the Jews (who are the WHOLE HOUSE of Israel as Ezekiel 37:11-14 says) of the Jews repent, not 144,000. 12 x 12 x 10 x 10 x 10 = ALL Israel, we prophesy guys can't help it you are not called unto prophesy. The very first sign of a guy with tunnel vision is when he is given an analogy like the 10 virgins, which DESTROYS his 144,000 understanding, but he refuses to speak about the 10 virgins that proves him wrong. BOOM ###. It only makes you look bad brother when you refuse to acknowledge the facts. God uses 10 for Completion via the Church, but not 10 x 12 via Israel, lol. OK...........You are wrong, not called to prophesy. You will be wrong again tomorrow because you have no vision.

Nope. Confused again you are. The rider on the white horse in the 1st seal is an Antichrist, not THE ANTICHRIST, the man of sin. The rider on the white horse is the 7th king. He gives his power to the eighth king who was and is not and yet is. And if you understood the word you would know who the Antichrist is.

OK..........No one agrees with you, PERIOD. Every time I see someone like you its the same, always wrong on everything basically. The Anti-Christ is the 7th Head of the Beast, the 8th King is a Demon named Apollyon, you can't even get that right. Well, I mean you do not get anything right.

I'm not the one making things up. If the Word says that there are 144,000 first fruits from the 12 tribes that's what it means so how can I be wrong when I say the 144,000 are first fruits from the 12 tribes. You are claiming that it means 5 million Jews. There's no question who is wrong.

You do not understand prophesy, stop pretending you do. Teaching things that are not factual you have perfected to a T.

You are so off base you can't even see it. Start over and read what it says and believe what the Word says and stop making things up and then you might have a chance to understand.

Stop pretending you understand prophesy, so important I repeated it.

You just aren't following. The rapture of the Church is before the final week, no doubt. I showed that, It happens before the seals are opened. The second rapture happens at the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal. What do you think those 144,000 first fruits are all about. You have 1st fruits and then you have a harvest.

No Rapture at the Second Coming, lol. Men stay on earth as humans. The Martyrs are raised and Judged after the 2nd coming, they live and reign with Jesus 1000 years with glorious bodies on earth. There are no 144,000 they are ALL Israel who repents and flee unto Judea. The 144,000 is a CODE just like the 10 virgin brides. Where does it say the 10 brides will = 2 billion people at the very end? You defeat your own self by not answering the obvious.

Matthew 24 talks end times. It lines up exactly with Revelation 6. There is no 70 AD in Matthew 24. The buildings of the Temple that are destroyed are about the future Temple that will be built.

WRONG...........and very clueless of course.

If you are going to teach prophecy it would be wise to accept what is written and stop making things up.

You are like the Pharisees, you just CAN'T SEE. They stated Jesus was making things up.

This is exactly what I am talking about....making things up. The 144,000 are 1st fruits of the harvest at the 6th seal. It is the same coming of Jesus as you see in Matthew 24, and it is also the coming of Jesus that you see in Revelation 14.

The First-fruits of the Wheat..............you act like 5 Million can't also be First-fruits !! See how illogical you are and via TUNNEL VISION?

 

[Ronald D Milam]

So, I want to believe that the 144,000 are EXACTLY who God says they are, and you want to make something up because you don't think God can explain Himself clearly enough.

No, I understand prophecy and you don't, give it up already. Do you except the 10 Virgin Brides = 2 Billion people? If so then nip it in the bud on the 144,000 not being 5 million. Again, nary a word about the 10 virgins because it defeats you. Sad you think dodging saves your bacon, it doesn't, DODGING means I win the debate.

I think it's time for you to have that talk with God again.

I think its time I quit chatting with you like I did before on the other sites. As I stated then, its a waste of my time tbh. You will never understand prophesy.

Through this folly of not accepting what is written you lose the truth that the 144,000 are first fruits of the second harvest that you are unable to see.

Again, does the 10 Virgins mean 10.............Dodge, dodge, dodge, = DEFEAT.

No. Matthew 24:14 has not evaded me in the slightest. Here you go.

Revelation 14
6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

I know this is out of you level of understanding but someday maybe you will catch on......These verses in Revelation 14 OCCUR DURING THE SEALS, just as Matthew 24:14 does.

You now want to skip from Rev. 6 which IS NOT in Matt. 24:4-14, to Rev. 14, which is also not Matt. 24:4-14. The Seals do nothing, so that is nonsensical. Rev. 14 is a Parenthetical Citation chapter, it is ALL THREE Harvests, the Wheat or Israel, the Wicked Grapes in verses 17-20 and the Pre Trib Rapture in a FLASHBACK in verse 14. So, Rev. 14 covers all 7 years of the 70th week, but has nothing to do with Matt. 24:4-14. Verse14 is the Church TAKING the Gospel unto the nations, thus only in verse 15 do we finally see the 70th week end times.

exactly. but the 1st seal occurring does not requite the 7th seal to be opened.

The Seals DO NOTHING, no matter if you get it or not, that doesn't change the facts. You are not called unto Prophecy, PERIOD.

It's not a requirement for me to understand something you have made up

It seems its not a requirement for you to understand anything about Prophecy. I understood that long, long ago.

You have yet to figure out that Jesus returns at the 6th seal immediately after the tribulation of those days.

He returns at the 7th Vial, the Seals DO NOTHING.

LOL. Other men. Which men.

No. I can't match the sun and moon events to the 4th trumpet.

Joel 2:31
31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come.

This happens at the 6th seal and has nothing to do with the 4th trumpet.

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

The fourth trumpet cannot happen until the 7th seal is open. The 6th seal opens we have the signs of the sun, moon and stars. Jesus comes and sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth. Men see wrath getting ready happen which is the day of the Lord. Then the 7th seal is opened and wrath happens and eventually the 4th trumpet sounds and you get this:
Rev 8
And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.

These are not the same signs that occur at the 6th seal and in Matthew 24 before the day of the Lord.

Men who put it forth before you were even a Christian. That tidy that up?

Yes you can, but you do nit want to admit the Seals, like Joelm2:31 are PROPHETIC. Just like you want to dodge the 10 Virgins, lol. I will be right, as proven by God and you wrong. I will let you keep on being wrong as I stop chatting with you. I do not keep chatting with those who refuse to heed facts. I wipe the dust off my feet and move on as the Lord told me to do.

Please stop trying to explain the TIMING to someone who actual understands the timing. The Seals are POROPHETIC, the DO NOTHING.

You are extremely confused brother. Jesus does not return at the 4th trumpet. He returns at the 6th seal. Then the wrath of God begins when the 7th seal is opened.

You are not called unto Prophecy, you will one day have to answer for these teachings brother.

You mean to tell me you forced yourself off the path into a ditch. Now you think Jesus returns at the 4th trumpet.

Like I stated above, you will be made to answer for your wrong teachings.

I heard all this stuff years ago. I think this is what everyone was teaching. All you have to do is read Revelation 6 and Matthew 24 and realize they match EXACTLY. And why wouldn't they. Both Jesus and John are talking end times. You should expect them to match.

CLUELESS.......They do not match, PERIOD until Matt. 24:15 comes

I read out loud many times. I hear pretty good. Meanwhile you are making up things that aren't in the Word. Try reading what is written and just accepting what is written. Making stuff up when we already have the answer given to us is worse than fruitless.

Clueless on Prophecy. PERIOD.

Brother, for being a self-proclaimed expert you are awfully confused. You need to start over beginning with what Jesus tells you in Matthew 24 is what John tells you in Revelation 6. Throw out your conclusions and just read what it says.

Clueless on Prophecy.

The 5th seal is talking about the Jews that are killed during the great tribulation. When the woman, Israel flees to the place of protection, the dragon goes after her seed which is the 12 tribes across the earth that now have the testimony of Jesus. The 70th week is about the people of Daniel. The Church is in heaven BEFORE the seals are opened.

Daniel 9
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

CLULESS..........It can only be Gentiles, the Jews are PROTECTED !!

Now, seeing as you have went three full days and refused to answer the point about the 10 virgins, that lets me know you are never, ever going to be able to deal in reality, thus I have nothing else to say to a guy who can't admit the 10 Virgins stand for 2 Billion people all because it will prove he is probably wrong on the 144,000 (and you are wrong) and you of course can't open that door can you, so you dodge. When a man can't even speak about something he knows is correct, because he is scared of being proven wrong elsewhere, I can nit deal with that type of guy. Heck, I can debate an atheist all day long, 24/7/365, but not you, because of your tactics. You lose, but never will bring up the point that creates the loss. DODGE BALL. Those 10 prove your 144,000 is a bad understanding. Perfect Numbers, LOLOL.

 

[The Light]

They are all the same, what I see is people try to switch when they lose a debate,

What I see is someone that is so confused by the things they have made up that are unable to comprehend that they lost before the debate began.

hoping a nuanced word here or there will help them in their arguments, it will not sir because the four Gospels all mean the exact same thing. So, let me go line by line here to show what this means also, I never get tripped up by other passages.

Ok. I will follow along intently.

Luke 21:5 And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said, 6 As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. {{The Temple. not the Outer Court of the gentiles}}

The buildings of the Temple include the walls.

7 And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?

8 And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near(Near in 33 AD meant 70 AD): go ye not therefore after them.

Ye are the Jews that are reading this at the end of the age. Jesus is talking end times.

9 But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by. {{ Who on this earth do you think YE is when Jesus is speaking unto his Disciples? Its incredulous you can not grasp this !! Mind Blown. So, Jesus tells the Disciples not to follow the fake Christs of 66-70 AD, which was COMING SOON or was NEAR. But Jesus warns them, he end or 70th week is LATER ON. This ends the Temples Destruction Phase. However we can see Luke doesn't get all three questions in as Matthew did, what will be the SIGN of your coming AND the End of the {eon) Age. But he does get the Answers to those questions in as seen BELOW: }}

Ye is the Jews that are alive at the end of the age. He warns them not to follow false Christs. When the final week begins after the Church is raptured God will turn his attention to Israel. Part of Israel will have its blindness removed when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.
Romans 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

So Jesus is warning the end time Jews that have had their blindness removed not to follow false Christs. The first false Christ they will see is the rider on the white horse who carries the bow of Apollo. Apollo is the false savior. He is Horus (the eye of Horus on the back of a 1 dollar bill), he is Tammuz. The rider in the white horse is given the stephanos crown which is the symbol of the United Nations. He is the 7th king. He is a false savior, AN Antichrist.

The 7th king, the beast of the earth, gives his power to the eighth king. The eighth king is THE Antichrist. The 8th king shows up just before the AOD. Jesus gives the another warning about the beast of the sea. Behold I have told you before about these false Christs.

Matthew 24
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25 Behold, I have told you before.

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

 

[The Light]

12 But before all these,(BOOM) they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake. 13 And it shall turn to you for a testimony. 14 Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer: 15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist. 16 And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you(All but John) shall they cause to be put to death. 17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake. 18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish. 19 In your patience possess ye your souls. {{ Jesus tells them even when the kill you they can not take away your Heavenly Prizes, Your souls shall not be touched one whit. }}

Ok so as I said, if you are looking for 70 AD you need to go to Luke 21, which as you have shown says BUT BEFORE ALL THESE. Luke 21 talks 70 AD. I also told you that Matthew 24 only talks end times. There is no 70 AD talk in Matthew 24. We have the same false Christs, nations rising against nations, famines, and pestilences that we saw in Luke 21, in Matthew 24. But what happens?


7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, (Bada Bing, Bada BOOM) and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

The Word says THEN. We do not go back to 70 AD with BUT BEFORE ALL THESE, we continue to the future with THEN shall they deliver you up to be afflicted.

As I said, there is no 70 AD talk in Matthew 24, including the destruction of the Temple which is the destruction of the future Temple that is not yet built.

So, its all the same, no matter which Gospel you jump to brother, I understand them all.

No, it is not the same. Luke 21 talks 70 AD, Matthew 24 does not. Matthew continues into the future after the beginning of sorrows.

P.S. Now I see why you wanted to SWITCH Gospels, LOL. No difference really.

I switched Gospels because in Luke 21 it says
Luke 21
6 As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

7 And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?

I wanted you to see that they were asking for a sign of when the Temple was going to be without one stone upon another. So if this event of the Temple being without one stone upon another had already happened Jesus would have told them what sign to look for. The sign given is the sign of His return. The Temple destruction of 70 AD is not the Temple that Jesus was talking about. He is talking about the future Temple that is not yet built.

WHEN WILL THEESE THINGS BE...........That is about the Temples Destruction. Then the Disciples throw in AND.............AND.................AND..............AND what sign will there be when these things come to pass, well why do you not recognize the two Questions Matthew said they asked? Because you want to DODGE that which defeats you !! Sad really.

I'm dodging nothing. I have fully addressed the fact that the Temple in question is not the 70 AD Temple and Matthew 24 does not talk 70 AD.

The AND.........as Matthew Shows are about the Coming of Jesus and END OF THE AGE.

The end of the age is at the 6th seal, but you think the seals do nothing. You eliminate them because you do not understand them, and it's all so simple. Jesus and John tell us exactly the same story.

So, you going to Luke 21 will not save you from that defeat brother, just because Luke doesn't put the definitive questions in his Gospel doesn't mean the questions were not asked just as Matthew stated. (cheap parlor trick I expect from Libs brother. COME ON.)This is why we get the Four Gospels brother. You will never be able to win a debate by trying to bait and switch brother, you lose when you try this automatically tbh.

I'm trying to show you the difference between the Luke 21 and Matthew 24 and how those differences prove the end time scenario. Not interested in tricking you brother.

 

[Truth7t7]

Luke 21 talks 70 AD

No Luke 21 describes a future (Daniels AOD) and a future (Great Tribulation) as the (Future Church) will be present on earth to witness the second coming

Luke Chapter 21 has absolutely no fulfillment in 70AD Jerusalem as you claim

 

[Davy]

No, I understand prophecy and you don't, give it up already. Do you except the 10 Virgin Brides = 2 Billion people? If so then nip it in the bud on the 144,000 not being 5 million. Again, nary a word about the 10 virgins because it defeats you. Sad you think dodging saves your bacon, it doesn't, DODGING means I win the debate.

The 144,000 actually are... just 144,000. They represent ONLY Christ's elect of Israelites out of all 12 tribes (well, the ones mentioned there in Rev.7, Dan isn't). That means the majority of Israelites are going to be deceived at the end. That doesn't mean they eventually won't be saved though. That is what Christ's future "thousand years" reign is for. Even Ezekiel 44 reveals the Levites that went astray when Israel went astray will still be put in charge of the menial duties in God's House, and will bear their iniquity, nor allowed to approach Christ at His table.

The "great multitude" of Rev.7:9 forward represent the elect Gentiles in Christ Jesus, and no number is given, suggesting an innumerable amount.

You now want to skip from Rev. 6 which IS NOT in Matt. 24:4-14, to Rev. 14, which is also not Matt. 24:4-14. The Seals do nothing, so that is nonsensical. Rev. 14 is a Parenthetical Citation chapter, it is ALL THREE Harvests, the Wheat or Israel, the Wicked Grapes in verses 17-20 and the Pre Trib Rapture in a FLASHBACK in verse 14. So, Rev. 14 covers all 7 years of the 70th week, but has nothing to do with Matt. 24:4-14. Verse14 is the Church TAKING the Gospel unto the nations, thus only in verse 15 do we finally see the 70th week end times.

That's fallacy.

Rev.6 with the Seals actually follow the SIGNS Jesus gave in His Olivet discourse, which are the 7 Signs of the end of this world. Those 7 Signs are the SAME Signs He gave in His Revelation and flow all the way from Rev.4 thru to Rev.19 about His 2nd coming. The last Sign Jesus gave in His Olivet discourse (Matt.24 and Mark 13) is that of His future coming and gathering of His Church AFTER... the tribulation.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

The 144,000 actually are... just 144,000. They represent ONLY Christ's elect of Israelites out of all 12 tribes (well, the ones mentioned there in Rev.7, Dan isn't). That means the majority of Israelites are going to be deceived at the end. That doesn't mean they eventually won't be saved though. That is what Christ's future "thousand years" reign is for. Even Ezekiel 44 reveals the Levites that went astray when Israel went astray will still be put in charge of the menial duties in God's House, and will bear their iniquity, nor allowed to approach Christ at His table.

The "great multitude" of Rev.7:9 forward represent the elect Gentiles in Christ Jesus, and no number is given, suggesting an innumerable amount.

This is just not true, God has three different numbers, only one of them can we now add up. The other two are CODES just like the 10 female virgin brides is a code for what we now know is two Billion people who live in Christendom, and only 5 of the 10 will be taken at the Rapture.

The number 10 = COMPLETION.

So, the 144,000 is a CODE, 12 (Fulness) x 12 x 10 (Completeness) x 10 x 10 = ALL Israel who repents. The 7000 God has saved unto Himself is also a code 7 (Divine Completion) x 10 x 10 x 10 = All Israel.

Therefore the 1/3 who repent in Zechariah 13:8-9 is the only one that can be added up, because we now know how many Jews are in the world and in Israel. The Jews are the WHOLE HOUSE of Israel, as God stated in Ezekiel 37. He said that He would bring the whole house of Israel out of the nations, they are only called Jews because they live in Judea, just like New Yorkers are called New Yorkers but they can be Jews, Italians, Irish, Libyans, or even from Australia.

So, there are 10 million Jews living in Israel today and 15 million living in the whole world. I assume more will move to Israel, but that gives us this figure: There will be 3-5 million Jews who repent, not just 144,000 or 7000. God can not lie, but He can give us CODES and does so often. Codes like the 10 virgin brides. Or 10 kings who are really ALL Europe reunited, which is really 25-27 nations as we speak. In Rev. 2:10 Smyrna is told they will have 10 days of tribulation, which means they will have tribulation for the Complete Church Age. As Jesus says in John 16:33 ye will always have tribulation in this world, so the 10 means for the Complete Church Age. Yes God uses numbers like that. This should be a Known Given !!

The 10 Commandments and 10 Plagues are 10 for a reason also. The 7 Spirits mean God is EVERYWHERE (Divine Completion). The 7 Churches = the Divine Complete Church Age. Then we see the 144,000 = All Israel who repent, or 3-5 million Jews, they repent JUST BEFORE the coming DOTL as shown below in two different passages.

Zechariah 13:8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein. 9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God.

{{{ NOW LOOK..........The very next verse is the DOTL arriving. }}}

Zechariah 14:1 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

{{{ In verses 3-4 we see Jesus returns 1260 days later to end all of this. So, Israel REPENTS just before the DOTL, or just before Rev. 8, which means Rev. 7 is the 3-5 million Jews fleeing Judea at the 1290 (144,000 is a code), which is 30 days before the 1260 DOTL asteroid event seen in Rev. 8. }}}

Malachi 4:5-6 says this also, Israel repents just before the DOTL.

Malachi 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord:

6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

So, the Elect Israelites you admit they represent can only be 3-5 million Jews, and that must include both male and female, just like the 10 virgin brides represent all Christendom, both male and female. Israel were called first, thus they are God's bride, thus they are called male virgins because males were first in genealogy, we the church are represented by a female virgin because we were only called because God got angry with Israel. We were like Leah, not the chosen Bride !!

Yes, 2/3 of Israel will be deceived, but the 1/3 who repent is a far higher percentage of Jews who repent than the Gentiles, we see only 1 billion out of 8 billion makes the pre trib rapture, of course more come to Christ during the 70th week, maybe another 1 billion since we see only 5 of 10 make the Rapture, maybe another "5 Virgin Brides" or 1 billion make it via 70th week repentance. They alone live and reign with Christ at his 1000 year reign with glorious bodies. (Gentiles who died & refused the Mark of the Beast as Rev. 20:4 shows us)

So, no, that is not what the 1000 year reign is, Israel have to repent before the 70th week is up, the prophecy says so. The scriptures above I showed you tell us that also.

Those seen in Rev. 7:9-17 are the Pre Trib Raptured Church. They can be nothing else. The church age was and is great tribulation, millions of our brothers died and paid the price to build the church, via their blood !! We see that point made by God in Rev. 12.

That's fallacy.

Rev.6 with the Seals actually follow the SIGNS Jesus gave in His Olivet discourse, which are the 7 Signs of the end of this world. Those 7 Signs are the SAME Signs He gave in His Revelation and flow all the way from Rev.4 thru to Rev.19 about His 2nd coming. The last Sign Jesus gave in His Olivet discourse (Matt.24 and Mark 13) is that of His future coming and gathering of His Church AFTER... the tribulation.

No, that is FACTS, you just have no understanding of said facts. I named 12 SIGNS, and its not the end of the world or 70th week until we get to Matt. 24:15. That is not going to ever change, PERIOD !!

Wrong, the church is gathered pre trib, those Jesus returns to save are the Jews hiding in the Petra & Bozrah area. You do not even understand the timing of the Rapture brother. Satan loves to confuse the masses. He will never stop working.

 

[Davy]

This is just not true, God has three different numbers, only one of them can we n ow add up. The other two are CODES just like the 10 female virgin brides is a code for what we now know is two Billion people who live in Christendom, and only 5 of the 10 will be taken at the Rapture.

But the fact that the 144,000 are literally 12,000 out of each of the tribes of Israel mentioned there in Rev.7 is... the Truth.

What you are listening to instead of God's written Word are men's false doctrines that the false Pre-trib Rapture preachers have devised outside of God's Word. They believe things like the 144,000 are 'tribulation saints' that convert to Jesus during the coming "great tribulation", which idea is a FABRICATION by the John Darby pre-trib rapture followers. The pre-trib school uses that FALSE idea to try and prop up their FALSE pre-trib rapture theory.

The REALITY per GOD'S WRITTEN WORD though, is that the Rev.7 chapter is pointing to Christ's Church, specifically those 'faithful' waiting on Jesus' coming, and NOT a false pre-trib rapture.

The 144,000 just happen to be Christ's elect of the Israelite tribes, and ONLY 3 of them mentioned actually represent Jews of the "house of Judah". The rest of the tribes mentioned in Rev.7 represent the ten lost tribes of the "house of Israel", which today's Jews have no clue where those are today, nor who they are today, even though the Old Testament prophets pointed to where and who they would be in the last days.

But the "great multitude", which are NOT raptured prior to the "great tribulation", those represent Christ's elect of the Gentiles, and the fact that John is told they went through great tribulation means exactly that, THEY WENT THROUGH THE "GREAT TRIBULATION". And that they went through the trib shouldn't be a huge brainer, because Jesus showed His coming to gather His saints is AFTER... the tribulation, not before the trib like the liars say.

 

[Davy]

No, that is FACTS, you just have no understanding of said facts. I named 12 SIGNS, and its not the end of the world or 70th week until we get to Matt. 24:15. That is not going to ever change, PERIOD !!

Wrong, the church is gathered pre trib, those Jesus returns to save are the Jews hiding in the Petra & Bozrah area. You do not even understand the timing of the Rapture brother. Satan loves to confuse the masses. He will never stop working.

Afraid so, like I said, the Seals given in Revelation 6 ARE... the SIGNS Jesus gave in His Olivet discourse of Matthew 24 and Mark 13. The FINAL SIGN Jesus gave was that of His future coming and gathering of His Church, pointing to the last day of this present world.

The men you listen to that push the FALSE pre-trib rapture theory which John Darby first preached in 1830's Great Britain, don't have a clue of how to properly interpret much of Christ's Book of Revelation. Other denominations are in error on how to understand it also, and that mainly because they don't study their Old Testament as they should. Even in the Book of Isaiah there is a section of chapters that scholars call "the apocalypse of Isaiah".

And the false pre-trib rapture school wrongly teaches its deceived members to DISREGARD Christ's Olivet discourse, pushing a LIE that it was not written to Christ's Church, but to the Jews. Why would those pre-trib charlatans preach that? Simply because Christ's Signs of the end He gave CONFLICT with the false pre-trib rapture theory! It's as simple as that!

 

[Ronald D Milam]

But the fact that the 144,000 are literally 12,000 out of each of the tribes of Israel mentioned there in Rev.7 is... the Truth.

And 12 = fulness thus 12 (Fulness) x 10 (Completeness) x 10 x 10 = 12,000.......X 12 tribes = 144,000. Use common sense brother, God is not choosing PERFECT NUMBERS to save, God is using these numbers to shout coded truths unto us, just like the 10 Virgins which you can accept. Jesus told us why he spoke to the 12 Disciples in parables (coded God lingo) so they hearing and seeing would understand, but the world hearing and seeing would not hear nor see BUT WHY? God wants you and I to understand his moves, He doesn't want the world to understand that 3-5 million Jews will repent, Satan KNOWS, that is why He has been trying to kill the Jews for eons, he knew a Savior would be born in Bethlehem, thus he tried to get King Herod to kill all the new born babies but an Angel warned Joseph and Mary to flee into Egypt. So, Satan knows, but his followers are in the dark because most do not believe in God, he has so deceived them that they only have their own guidance. So, we get the exact same principle with each tribe, 12 x 10 x 10 x 10 = Fulness x Completeness, so there also is not exactly 12, 000 from each tribe. Just like there are not only 10 Virgin Brides.

What you are listening to instead of God's written Word are men's false doctrines that the false Pre-trib Rapture preachers have devised outside of God's Word. They believe things like the 144,000 are 'tribulation saints' that convert to Jesus during the coming "great tribulation", which idea is a FABRICATION by the John Darby pre-trib rapture followers. The pre-trib school uses that FALSE idea to try and prop up their FALSE pre-trib rapture theory.

This is my calling of 37 years, I do not listen to men, you however seem to. I am correct, you are incorrect, that will be proven out. You bring up John Darby is how Satan whispers confusion to the masses, anyone with common sense understand Paul wrote of the Pre Trib Rapture. So whatever Darby wrote (who cares except you and others like you who are using a tactics created by Satan long ago, bring forth subterfuge to distract from God's truths) So when Satan whispers these things through a few men, they get passed down to other men, and then they become their truths, but they are not truths. By the way, if Joe Moe pulled out the Rapture Truths WRITTEN by Paul, only last week, the truths are still the truths. Th RCC tried to make everyone believe as they did, people couldn't even read or study the bible in full. That is why we had a Reformation under Martin Luther. So, a lot of TRUTHS were hemmed up by Satan during these times. The truths however are still the truth, and there will be a Pre Trib Rapture, that is a FACT, you not seeing it is on you, its not even that hard TBH.

YOU HAVE TO TRY VERY HARD to be deceived on these things, that happens when a man full of pride refuses to hear these deep truths of God. God chastised me on this 7 years go. So, the difference is I hear God telling me YOU ARE WRONG Ron, you will not allow yourself to hear those words brother.

The 144,000 are ALL Israel who Repent just before the DOTL just like Malachi 4:5-6 and Zech. 13:8-9 says. No one cares what THEY BELEIVE, I do not live my life thinking this is what THEY BELIVE, maybe you do. Maybe that is why you can't see the Pre Trib Rapture you are listening to "THEM". Those other people who also have no understanding of Eschatology.

The REALITY per GOD'S WRITTEN WORD though, is that the Rev.7 chapter is pointing to Christ's Church, specifically those 'faithful' waiting on Jesus' coming, and NOT a false pre-trib rapture.

You are very, very confused brother.

The 144,000 just happen to be Christ's elect of the Israelite tribes, and ONLY 3 of them mentioned actually represent Jews of the "house of Judah". The rest of the tribes mentioned in Rev.7 represent the ten lost tribes of the "house of Israel", which today's Jews have no clue where those are today, nor who they are today, even though the Old Testament prophets pointed to where and who they would be in the last days.

There is nor ever was any lost tribes, this just shows how fundamentally wrong you are on all things end times, it is not your calling and never was. God will nit take lightly you putting firth these untruths brother. Every TRIBE had SEED living in Jerusalem/Judea, thus there was never any lost tribes, this is of Herbert W. Armstrong, a cultist.

But the "great multitude", which are NOT raptured prior to the "great tribulation", those represent Christ's elect of the Gentiles, and the fact that John is told they went through great tribulation means exactly that, THEY WENT THROUGH THE "GREAT TRIBULATION". And that they went through the trib shouldn't be a huge brainer, because Jesus showed His coming to gather His saints is AFTER... the tribulation, not before the trib like the liars say.

The Great Multitude are in Heaven BEFORE the Seals are opened as see in Rev. 4 and 5.They went through Great Tribulation............YOU ADDED THE or found a bible thzt added THE, its nit i the original text sorry Charlie. Those came out of the Church Age Tribulation. They are the Pre Trib Raptured Saints, nothing you say will ever change that factoid.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

Afraid so, like I said, the Seals given in Revelation 6 ARE... the SIGNS Jesus gave in His Olivet discourse of Matthew 24 and Mark 13. The FINAL SIGN Jesus gave was that of His future coming and gathering of His Church, pointing to the last day of this present world.

WRONG..........Not worth repeating a rebut.

The men you listen to that push the FALSE pre-trib rapture theory which John Darby first preached in 1830's Great Britain, don't have a clue of how to properly interpret much of Christ's Book of Revelation. Other denominations are in error on how to understand it also, and that mainly because they don't study their Old Testament as they should. Even in the Book of Isaiah there is a section of chapters that scholars call "the apocalypse of Isaiah".

You will be proven wrong in the end. I know more about End Times in one brain cell than you know brother, it is not your calling, give it up.

And the false pre-trib rapture school wrongly teaches its deceived members to DISREGARD Christ's Olivet discourse, pushing a LIE that it was not written to Christ's Church, but to the Jews. Why would those pre-trib charlatans preach that? Simply because Christ's Signs of the end He gave CONFLICT with the false pre-trib rapture theory! It's as simple as that!

Again, you have no clue what Matt. 24 means, at all. Here I am I can tell you every event that is going to go down and how, and you are tone death to these facts. Its called tunnel vision. Its amusing to me to see people who are so off who actually think they have eschatological understandings, but have none.

It is what it is brother.

 

[Davy]

And 12 = fulness thus 12 (Fulness) x 10 (Completeness) x 10 x 10 = 12,000.......X 12 tribes = 144,000. Use common sense brother, God is not choosing PERFECT NUMBERS to save, God is using these numbers to shout coded truths unto us, just like the 10 Virgins which you can accept. Jesus told us why he spoke to the 12 Disciples in parables (coded God lingo) so they hearing and seeing would understand, but the world hearing and seeing would not hear nor see BUT WHY? God wants you and I to understand his moves, He doesn't want the world to understand that 3-5 million Jews will repent, Satan KNOWS, that is why He has been trying to kill the Jews for eons, he knew a Savior would be born in Bethlehem, thus he tried to get King Herod to kill all the new born babies but an Angel warned Joseph and Mary to flee into Egypt. So, Satan knows, but his followers are in the dark because most do not believe in God, he has so deceived them that they only have their own guidance. So, we get the exact same principle with each tribe, 12 x 10 x 10 x 10 = Fulness x Completeness, so there also is not exactly 12, 000 from each tribe. Just like there are not only 10 Virgin Brides.

You don't need to rely on numerology to understand the Bible prophecy about these things. One only need to read and heed it as written in God's Word. Reverting to numerical symbology before you've even read the Scripture is not the way to do Bible study.

The Rev.7 chapter is about those which God 'seals' in prep for the great tribulation. Don't you recall what that 'sealing' is about per Rev.9:4?

The number 144,000 is NOT SYMBOLIC like you are trying to create. It is LITERAL. The "great multitude", guess what that descriptor does? It PREVENTS anyone from putting a literal number attached to it. But the 144,000, that's different because Christ is not giving just that 144,000 by itself, He is specifically showing 12,000 out of each of those Israelite tribes listed there in Rev.7, which means being MORE SPECIFIC. And when God's Word does that, it is to be understood LITERALLY.

This is my calling of 37 years, I do not listen to men, you however seem to....

Pretty much useless babel. And you reveal lack of understanding on this subject, so for you, God still has it on a shelf in your case.

YOU HAVE TO TRY VERY HARD to be deceived on these things, that happens when a man full of pride refuses to hear these deep truths of God. God chastised me on this 7 years go. So, the difference is I hear God telling me YOU ARE WRONG Ron, you will not allow yourself to hear those words brother.

More useless babel. Do you actually think you can convince others that read that it proves your theories are correct? What vanity!

The 144,000 are ALL Israel who Repent just before the DOTL just like Malachi 4:5-6 and Zech. 13:8-9 says. No one cares what THEY BELEIVE, I do not live my life thinking this is what THEY BELIVE, maybe you do. Maybe that is why you can't see the Pre Trib Rapture you are listening to "THEM". Those other people who also have no understanding of Eschatology.


You are very, very confused brother.

I'm not the one confused here. You reveal that you are deceived by false Jew's theories, and by men's false doctrines of a pre-trib rapture theory. So I can see why God has not allowed you to understand much of His Word. You abuse His Word by pushing men's false doctrine instead, so why should He show you anything?

There is nor ever was any lost tribes, this just shows how fundamentally wrong you are on all things end times, it is not your calling and never was. God will nit take lightly you putting firth these untruths brother. Every TRIBE had SEED living in Jerusalem/Judea, thus there was never any lost tribes, this is of Herbert W. Armstrong, a cultist.

Why do you bring that up? You must have been reading some of my writings elsewhere, and obviously about things you have no clue about. There are Jewish scholars that don't believe in the future gathering of the ten lost tribes of Israel. They wrongly think they've all been destroyed. That's the false Jews that believe that, i.e., those who say they are Jews, but do lie and are not, but are the "synagogue of Satan" (Rev.2:9 and Rev.3:9).

Then there are Jewish scholars that do... recognize God's prophecies about the future gathering of the ten lost tribes of Israel, as written.

God split the old nation of Israel into two separate kingdoms after Solomon's days. One can easily read that history starting in 1 Kings 11 forward. Even for today, the majority of the Jews are only made up of 3 tribes, the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi. A small remnant of the 10 tribes joined with them per God's Word too back in history, but the majority of the ten northern tribes remained under king Jeroboam of the tribe of Ephraim. Only the lazy become bored reading that Bible history, and show their ignorance of it like you have.

The Great Multitude are in Heaven BEFORE the Seals are opened as see in Rev. 4 and 5.They went through Great Tribulation............YOU ADDED THE or found a bible thzt added THE, its nit i the original text sorry Charlie. Those came out of the Church Age Tribulation. They are the Pre Trib Raptured Saints, nothing you say will ever change that factoid.

The "great multitude" John is told came out of great tribulation, and washed their robes in the Blood of The Lamb (Jesus). That means they 'overcame' through Christ with being tested DURING THE GREAT TRIBULATION. Ain't no one in Christ's Church alive on earth when the trib starts going anywhere. All of Christ's Church still alive go through... the "great tribulation", as time of His gathering His Church is AFTER... the tribulation LIKE HE SAID...

Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV

Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall He send His angels, and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
KJV

 

[Ronald D Milam]

You don't need to rely on numerology to understand the Bible prophecy about these things. One only need to read and heed it as written in God's Word. Reverting to numerical symbology before you've even read the Scripture is not the way to do Bible study.

You can call it polk-salad if you want to, I showed how God over and over use numbers in the bible. You cant rebut those facts so you try to trot out a RED HERRING, never works with me. The facts are the facts, God had 4000 words to work with in the original Hebrew, many words were used for many things, that is why YOWM doesn't mean one day, its a period of time and then a DESCRIPTION of said time has to be inserted, that is why the first YOWM *Day* in creation lasted 9.2 Billion years. That's why 10 stands in for completion all over the bible. You not getting it, or being to invested to admit it, either way, is on you.

The Rev.7 chapter is about those which God 'seals' in prep for the great tribulation. Don't you recall what that 'sealing' is about per Rev.9:4?

We are all SEALED unto God by the Holy Spirit, that is what it really means. The verse you cited in Rev. 9 proves that, the Demons are not allowed to hurt the Jews or the Christians during the first woe. But of course humans can and will hurt and kill the Christians thus they are the Martyrs under the 5th seal. We are sealed unto God, or saved by faith in Jesus, death has no power over us. Likewise, the Jewish peoples are also sealed unto God in like manner, by FAITH ALONE.

The number 144,000 is NOT SYMBOLIC like you are trying to create. It is LITERAL. The "great multitude", guess what that descriptor does? It PREVENTS anyone from putting a literal number attached to it. But the 144,000, that's different because Christ is not giving just that 144,000 by itself, He is specifically showing 12,000 out of each of those Israelite tribes listed there in Rev.7, which means being MORE SPECIFIC. And when God's Word does that, it is to be understood LITERALLY.

Its a CODE, you can call it symbolism if you like, but a CODE is a CODE. It leads us unto a truth, symbolism is not always leading us unto a solid factoid. Symbolism is more akin to Scarlet and Purple standing for Religious Orders and Royalty in Rev. 17. If it stood for one religion or one government it would be a Code. So, yes, its a literal 1/3 of the Jewish peoples who repent, as Zechariah 13:8-9 says. We know that 12,000 is also a CODE, 12 x 10 x 10 x 10. So, each tribe is a CODE..........within a CODE.......therefore it simply points to ALL Israel who repents from EVERY TRIBE. Psstt, have you not given thought to the New Jerusalem also being of a measured number which = 144,000 ? It's also a CODE.

Pretty much useless babel. And you reveal lack of understanding on this subject, so for you, God still has it on a shelf in your case.

You will be astounded when you get to Heaven about all I knew and you refused to receive. You will go Mama Mia, slap your own head, Mama Mia, Mama Mia !!

More useless babel. Do you actually think you can convince others that read that it proves your theories are correct? What vanity!

Again, when you have no rebut, the same ole lazy answer.

I'm not the one confused here. You reveal that you are deceived by false Jew's theories, and by men's false doctrines of a pre-trib rapture theory. So I can see why God has not allowed you to understand much of His Word. You abuse His Word by pushing men's false doctrine instead, so why should He show you anything?

Too funny, are you a Jew hater or something? Jesus was a Jew brother. Sounds a little weird tbh. As per the Pre Trib Rapture, when someone can't get that, I will listen to nothing they say about Eschatology.

Why do you bring that up? You must have been reading some of my writings elsewhere, and obviously about things you have no clue about. There are Jewish scholars that don't believe in the future gathering of the ten lost tribes of Israel. They wrongly think they've all been destroyed. That's the false Jews that believe that, i.e., those who say they are Jews, but do lie and are not, but are the "synagogue of Satan" (Rev.2:9 and Rev.3:9).

Why would I listen to the LOST (Jews who have yet to repent) on spiritual things? I think John was writing to real churches in Turkey at that time, sure there are types to compare other churches unto throughout the whole church age, but any specific mention was about a church in the 1st century AD brother.

Then there are Jewish scholars that do... recognize God's prophecies about the future gathering of the ten lost tribes of Israel, as written.

Like I stated above I do not listen to the lost to get Spiritual info.

God split the old nation of Israel into two separate kingdoms after Solomon's days. One can easily read that history starting in 1 Kings 11 forward. Even for today, the majority of the Jews are only made up of 3 tribes, the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi. A small remnant of the 10 tribes joined with them per God's Word too back in history, but the majority of the ten northern tribes remained under king Jeroboam of the tribe of Ephraim. Only the lazy become bored reading that Bible history, and show their ignorance of it like you have.

WRONG, read Ezekiel 37 the TWO STICKS become ONE STICK. God never wanted two kingdoms, that was men's ideas, not Gods. All 12 Tribes are still alive or else God is a liar. The numbers are from each tribe are NOT IMPORTANT at all, PERIOD. There were never any LOST TRIBES, God allowed some evil loving peoples to be toted off. QUESTION, when Moses came down and saw evil, and he said stand ye hear with God or over there, and then God killed all of those standing over on the other side, were "TRIBES LOST THEN?" See how that is squashed with one mere juxtaposition?

All of the "TRIBES" came from one man, Abraham, so one mans seed brought forth Israel, thus if only 10 percent of each tribe remained in Jerusalem, there were never any LOST TRIBES. Its just not a factoid.

The "great multitude" John is told came out of great tribulation, and washed their robes in the Blood of The Lamb (Jesus).

Right, Church Age Tribulation, where millions of our brothers were killed. He simply said great troubles or tribulation, not the Greatest Ever Tribulations. Football team A.) can have a GREAT COMBACK from 30 points down and Football team B can have the GREATEST EVER COMEBACK from 42 points down. Both can be real events. See the point, I simplified it a smidge.

That means they 'overcame' through Christ with being tested DURING THE GREAT TRIBULATION. Ain't no one in Christ's Church alive on earth when the trib starts going anywhere. All of Christ's Church still alive go through... the "great tribulation", as time of His gathering His Church is AFTER... the tribulation LIKE HE SAID...

No it does not, it means you have a reading comprehension problem brother. If you can understand team A and team B but can't understand that the Church can come out of great tribulation, but not the Greatest Ever Tribulation, then you are just not on the up and up because you know that would defeat your Rapture understandings !!

Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV

Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall He send His angels, and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
KJV

You sir do not understand this at all. The Sun and Moon goes DARK after the Tribulation of those 1260 days BEGIN, just begins, it happens at the Fourth Trump, GO LOOK, way before the 7th Vial, GO LOOK, sigh.

THEN..............Jesus returns in verse 30.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Th RCC tried to make everyone believe as they did, people couldn't even read or study the bible in full. That is why we had a Reformation under Martin Luther.

Why do you guys keep perpetuating this falsehood?

It’s like watching the Left Wing news media ignore the facts about Hunter Biden’s laptop and creating their OWN narrative.

First of all –
Luther’s biggest gripes were Doctrine like Indulgences - not the inability for the general public to own or read a Bible. Bibles were hard to come by in Early to Mid -Church period. They were expensive because they were hand-copied and took YEARS to complete. So, only RICH people could afford to pay someone to do this – and they were usually translated or copied with HUGE errors because they weren’t qualified linguists.

The REASON why we have so much beautiful art from some the greatest artist whoever lived, like Michaelangelo, Titian, Raphael, etc. - is because they were commissioned by the POPES of their day to help instruct the illiterate masses. In the 12th Century, the Church convened the Council of Toulouse and issued a prohibition on the public owning or having “home-made” Bibles – especially those that were spuriously and inaccurately copied. It applied to those who could PAY FOR it because their "copies" were causing confusion and changing doctrines.

MOST people throughout history have been functionally-illiterate, yet they learned the Gospel through attending Mass, where, virtually the ENTIRE Bible is read aloud and discussed in a 3-year cycle during the Liturgy of the Word. It wasn’t until the latter p[art of the 19th century into the 20th century that the percentages started to drastically change.

It had ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the Church’s desire to “keep the Gospel from the public.” Like I said – MOST people couldn’t READ anyway.

Learn your Church history before you go around making false and intellectually-bankrupt claims . . .