Hell is Forever - Punishment, Torment or Torture - You Would Not Cease to Exist

[Hidden In Him]

1. Both of them are in heaven in a dormant state just as 1 Thess 4:13-16 states

A dormant state? What kind of dormant state?

Isaiah 38: "18 For Sheol cannot thank You,
Death cannot praise You;
Those who go down to the pit cannot hope for Your truth.
19 The living, the living man, he shall praise You,
As I do this day;
The father shall make known Your truth to the children."

Bad translation. These verses are about those in Hades not being willing to praise God because they have no hope of receiving mercy.

LXX: "18 For they that are in the grave shall not praise thee, neither shall the dead bless thee, neither shall they that are in Hades hope for thy mercy. 19 The living shall bless thee, as I also do: for from this day shall I beget children, who shall declare thy righteousness"

 

[Phoneman777]

True - and 1 Thess 4 says they are "Asleep in Jesus" -- in a dormant state.



Also true. The dormant state of the soul - while the body "returns to dust".

In this life the body may be killed - but not the soul.

But both body AND soul are "destroyed" in the fiery hell that is the Lake of Fire of Rev 20

You keep using the word "dormant". When you flip off a light switch and the electric current is removed from the light bulb, does the light go "dormant" or does it cease to exist? So, when the Breath of Life is removed from the Body, does the Living Soul - which comes into and exists only as a consequence of the union of the Breath of Life and the Body according to Genesis 2:7 - go "dormant" or does it also cease to exist?

 

[Phoneman777]

Awe, sorry God did not impart a soul into you.
Seems its going to be a dilemma, when there is no soul to depart out of your body. Glad that is not my dilemma.

God didn't impart a soul into your body either. He imparted His Breath of Life to your body, and you BECAME a Living Soul. B-E-C-A-M-E is a strange way to spell "impart".

1 Thes. 5:23

This doesn't prove man "has" a Soul in the least.

Do you have any clue how ridiculous you sound MAKING FALSE CLAIMS, with your words, then railing against your own words?

What false claims? I'm just quoting Scripture.

You can read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation and you will not find a single instance in which the Soul is named or described as "immortal"
So?

So, if the Bible never refers to the Soul as "immortal" or never describes it or characterizes it as such, and also says "God alone hath immortality", then why do you keep insisting things that aren't Biblical are so?

AGAIN you MAKE A FALSE CLAIM (about the soul being immortal) , then rail against your own words.

You're the one saying that Souls are immortal and don't die, right?

AGAIN you MAKE A FALSE CLAIM (about you saying souls never die) , then rail against your own words.

No, you have repeatedly said that Souls don't die, just the Body. The Bible plainly says that "the Soul that sinneth, IT SHALL DIE."

Learn how to use the QUOTE feature, instead of trying to MAKE FALSE CLAIMS, and "PRETEND" it is what another has said, when they HAVE NOT!

I use it quite well, especially when exposing doctrinal errors, like your false ideas about God imparting "souls" into bodies, when no where does it say that. At best, the word "nephesh" is used to describe "life" in bodies, but Genesis 2:7 is clear that it is not the "Living Soul" that is imparted into the Body, but the Breath of Life.

Body + Breath of Life = Living Soul comes into existence
Body - Breath of Life = Living Soul ceases to exist

Light Bulb + Electric Current = Light comes into existence
Light Bulb - Electric Current = Light ceases to exist

 

[Taken]

So then even those scholars that argue for immortal soul (such as R.C. Sproul and Matthew Henry) freely admit Luke 16 is a parable when it comes to the rich man and Lazarus - and praying to the dead.

Bob, why tell me what others think?

WHAT Jesus' speaking was called (Parable) is not in dispute.

Bible details matter.

However it was Understanding I was talking about.

You gave your understanding is Jesus' PARABLES were about making a point....

And you gave your understanding of Jesus' point.

My illustration was Jesus' PARABLES gave several points that anyone could pick and choose, and not consider the rest of what He said.

[QUOTEIt is your own immortal-soul promoting Bible scholars that agree with me on this one...[/QUOTE]

WHAT? "My own"...? Where did you come up with THAT? I have never mentioned "having" any Bible Scholars, I follow, or KNOW WHO they are.

This is " the easy part "

It does appear wandering off track is easy, but it does nothing to reveal your standing.

in the parable where the rich man prays to Abraham -

Praying to...? He was pleading/asking.

the point is not that Abraham is the sovereign of heaven to whom all must pray -

Of course not. No one said anything about Abraham being IN Heaven or the Soverign OF Heaven.

Yes....Details matter...

Abraham's BODY was dead and buried.
Gen 25:8, 9

The Rich man's BODY was dead and buried.
Luke 15:22

Both Abraham and the Rich man were WHERE? HELL.
Luke 16:23

BODY'S BURIED, and LIVING SOULS IN HELL having a CONVERSATION!

Where DO Bodies come FROM?
The Center of the Earth? No
They come from DUST of the Earth.
IS the Center of the Earth ever described as DUST?
And once a Body is DEAD, Where DO Bodies Return TO? DUST OF the EARTH.

Consider the Facts. The Details.

What was IN HELL ... with it's SENSES being revealed ALIVE? Seeing, Hearing, Speaking, Feeling, etc. ?

DEAD BODIES KNOW NOTHING.
DEAD BODIES are buried.

... as Christ said ...

Yes. Let's Stick to That and what Scripture reveals.

Do you believe Jesus is the Truth?
Do you believe everything Jesus said is True?
Do you believe DEAD BODIES are buried in the earth / or in The Center of the earth?
Do you believe Abraham was an Authority Father Figure on Earth ? In hell ?
Do you believe Any, Souls went to hell?
If so, were they Living or Dead souls?
Do you believe DEAD or Living souls in hell were having a conversation?
Do you believe there was a division in hell?
Do you believe there were saved souls and unsaved souls in hell?
Do you believe they were divided and could not mingle?
Do you believe Jesus' body was buried on the earth?
Do you believe Jesus' was soul was dead and buried on the earth?
Do you believe Jesus' soul was living and went to hell? If so, why?

Forget about bringing up scholars and what others believe.

This is about what you believe and I believe and WHY we each have reached our conclusions.

Be candid, then we each can be on track of WHAT, we believe and WHY.

God Bless,
Taken

 

[Taken]

God didn't impart a soul into your body either.

Hey, keep your place. Don't dictate to me what God has or has not done for me.

He imparted His Breath of Life to your body, and you BECAME a Living Soul.

Sure I BECAME LIVING...
God IS LIFE, without LIFE FROM HIM, a THING (such as my body), can not Become Living, called Quickened.

And "INTO" is indicative of "IMPART", which uh, Something was NOT IN my Formed Body, and THEN it was IN my formed BODY.

Not a big mystery....Gods Breath of Life, and a soul.

The Breath of God, (LIFE) is what Quickened my BODY and its BLOOD LIFE, to become LIVING.

The Soul from God, (SENSES) is what Provided my BODY to "receive" Living SENSES.

Ever seen a DEAD BODY?
It's SENSES (living soul), is NOT IN A DEAD BODY!
A dead body can not hear, talk, smell, feel, etc.

B-E-C-A-M-E is a strange way to spell "impart".

Who spelled "impart", B-E-C-A-M-E ?
I didn't.

You didn't pay attention.
The Scripture, and I said, "INTO".
Does "INTO" confuse you, when it is said as "IMPART" ?

Became ~ simple notifies you MAN, IS:
A created body, "and"
A made Living soul.

Surely you don't believe MAN "stopped" being a formed body, because he was made also a "living soul" ? Do you?

Because MAN is BOTH.

Are you familiar with the TERM "and" ?
It clearly notifies you...
The Body (from the Dust)
"AND"
The Living Soul (from Gods Breath)
ARE two separate "THINGS"
FROM
TWO separate "PLACES"
Are applicable.....TO ONE MAN.

This doesn't prove man "has" a Soul in the least.

I don't have to PROVE anything.
I simply choose TO BELIEVE Scripture.
Man is a bodily form, from dust.
Man is ALSO a Living soul, from Gods breath.

Mans created form was NOT CREATED ALIVE.
Mans created form was NOT CREATED WITH (SENSES; hearing, seeing, speech, etc.)

Not a Big mystery...
God brings a mans (BODY) into LIVING....
....(WITH SOMETHING LIVING...HIS BREATH)

Not a Big mystery...
God did not create a mans (BODY) WITH HIS BREATH IN the BODY....Scripture is quite clear....AFTER the body is Formed...THEN God blows HIS Breath of Life...INTO the body.

And created Bodies were NOT created with (Living Senses)....They are GIVEN a Body, by God Himself.

What false claims? I'm just quoting Scripture.

No, you do not "just" quote scripture.
False claims are when YOU DICTATE 'for me' what you claim "applies" TO ME....and I do not claim that FOR MYSELF.
(For example....READ your opening statement in the very post. That is not "just" scripture....that is YOU making a claim FOR ME, that I absolutely DO NOT Believe....thus you are making a false claim.)

So, if the Bible never refers to the Soul as "immortal"

So? Neither have I, so why are you attempting to argue something with me, that I never brought up?

or never describes it or characterizes it as such,

Perhaps you could tell me, In Luke 16...(last half)....What exactly is having a conversation IN Hell....hum??

and also says "God alone hath immortality",

So you want to hang on to the term, "IMMORALITY"?

I will continue this in another post.

God Bless,
Taken

 

[Taken]

So, if the Bible never refers to the Soul as "immortal" or never describes it or characterizes it as such, and also says "God alone hath immortality",

then why do you keep insisting things that aren't Biblical are so?

Pay attention. I am not disagreeing with Scripture.
I AM DISAGREEING with YOU making claims FOR ME, that I DO NOT BELIEVE!!

You're the one saying that Souls are immortal and don't die, right?

Well IF I HAD SAID THAT....YOU COULD HAVE QUOTED ME SAYING THAT....right?

No, you have repeatedly said that Souls don't die, just the Body.

So....WHY are YOU making that CLAIM, instead of QUOTING "ME" saying that?

The Bible plainly says that "the Soul that sinneth, IT SHALL DIE."

SEE THE PROBLEM?

I speak for myself. You change my words to your words, then CLAIM that "I was saying what YOU SAID".....then you ARGUE against WHAT YOU SAID.

I use it quite well, especially when exposing doctrinal errors,

No, you don't. You make up things....that I never said.....

...my scholars, immortality, souls never die, etc.

like your false ideas about God imparting "souls" into bodies, when no where does it say that.

See? Here you make an accusaition against me....why? You don't know me. You don't know what even I say, since you speak for me in your own words. You have NO IDEA, How often, How much, I have read and studied scriptures, Or where I get my Understanding of Scriptures.....since YOU HAVE decided to claim, FOR ME, I supposedly get my understanding from Bible Scholars, whom I have never mentioned or know of.

At best, the word "nephesh" is used to describe "life" in bodies, but Genesis 2:7 is clear that it is not the "Living Soul" that is imparted into the Body, but the Breath of Life.

I don't Presume, to LIMIT, what the Lord gives a man...and HOW He gives it.

Body + Breath of Life = Living Soul comes into existence

Disagree. Created Body, formed from dust, and Gods Breath of Life BLOWN
"INTO" the created BODY, equals A Created BODY, "MADE" alive,
"WITH" "living senses" and "Gods breath of Life" that GOD IMPARTS "INTO" the created Body. The created MAN, is then both, BODY "AND" Living soul.

Body - Breath of Life = Living Soul ceases to exist

ALL Bodies ARE SeNTENCeD TO DIE.
ALL bodies MUST become ALIVE, BEFORE they can DIE.

God BRINGS a created body INTO A LIVING STATE, via HIS BREATH.

The LIVING STATE "OF" a body IS IT"S BLOOD.

Newsflash...when the BODY is created....it IS FORMED with flesh, a heart, a brain, organs, nerves, kidneys, muscles, bones, etc. and BLOOD..... It is formed but can DO NOTHING, because it is NOT ALIVE.....UNTIL, God blows His breath of Life INTO THE BODY....

And that BODY ... has ears, skin, a mouth, etc., but it can NOT hear, feel, speak, etc....
UNTIL God "GIVES" the BODY the ability to hear, feel, speak, etc..... and those things ARE "GIVEN INTO THE BODY" WHEN GOD GIVES the BODY "a SOUL".

It is MAN, the bodily Form, that BECOMES...
ALIVE, and HAS a LIVING SOUL....which is now the LIVING "MAN" is both an ALIVE BODY (of his own BLOOD LIFE) And an ALIVE SOUL (of the LIFE of Gods Breath).

Bodies are SENTENCED to DIE....they ALL MUST DIE.

Where does Scripture say.....ALL SOULS are
SENTENCED TO DIE?

Yes, ONLY GOD IS Absolute Life, without beginning or ending.

IF you Understood Gods Word....IT IS ALL ABOUT a MAN BECOMING....into a state of ABSOLUTE forward, FOREVER LIVING.

MAN, has 3 "types" of LIFE...
His (dust) body, from the earth and Blood Life.
His (senses) soul, from God and Gods Breath Life.
His (natural truth in his heart) spirit, ie his true thoughts.

The flesh body is BORN in corruption.
The flesh body, Corrupts its own soul.
The body's spirit, keeps or reveals it's truth.

A corrupt body, soul, spirit of man....IS separated from God....BECAUSE IT IS BORN CORRUPT....

And BIG PICTURE "OF" Scripture is for man; the whole of man (body, soul, & spirit) TO BECOME "MADE" WHOLE.

What IS "WHOLE" ? How is "WHOLE" accomplished?

WHOLE IS; the Lord "CHANGING" the man...
WITH HIS Word, Forgiveness, Power, Seed...
To the whole of a man's...
Body....Soul...Spirit.

Body dead, sanctified and TO BE raised up in Forever Living Glory.
Soul restored, and saved and REMAINS forever with Gods Breath of Life.
Spirit reborn with Gods Seed to forever life.

Not sure where you stand, since so far all I have seen is you speak for me, then disagree with it.

God Bless,
Taken

 

[Dave L]

Gods attributes are Gods attributes. He does not change. He makes Himself known in whatever way He chooses, and it is not the same for every person. Adam and Eve walked with Him in the garden, they knew His goodness and His grace and His desire for their obedience, hence, His justness-before they chose to dis-obey. God nor His character and attributes never have and never will change, even despite the circumstances.

Without contrast, something to compare to, we do not perceive the truth about anything.

 

[Nancy]

Without contrast, something to compare to, we do not perceive the truth about anything.

What will be the contrast in Heaven? Will we become so used to the "good" that we will want to do bad? Will good become boring because there is no bad to contrast?

 

[Episkopos]

What will be the contrast in Heaven? Will we become so used to the "good" that we will want to do bad? Will good become boring because there is no bad to contrast?

In the future age....there will be vast differences in glory....and shame. Exponentially more so than what is found in this age.

 

[Dave L]

What will be the contrast in Heaven? Will we become so used to the "good" that we will want to do bad? Will good become boring because there is no bad to contrast?

The contrast will be as Paul says;
“And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:” (Ephesians 3:9–11)

Think education that lasts forever.

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said: ↑
So then even those scholars that take your side arguing for immortal soul (such as R.C. Sproul and Matthew Henry) freely admit Luke 16 is a parable when it comes to the rich man and Lazarus - and praying to the dead. Because they know full well (freely admit) that "praying to the dead" and "Abraham as sovereign of heaven deciding who can do what" is not even remotely reality -- rather it is parable.

Bob, why tell me what others think?

WHAT Jesus' speaking was called (Parable) is not in dispute.

I am not sure you are following the point.

And you gave your understanding of Jesus' point.

I gave the exact quote of how Jesus ends the parable.

Luke 16
31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’

Here we have Christ's concluding statement which you show no interest at all in - yet details like praying to the dead and Abraham sovereign of all heaven and all saints in Abraham's lap you seem to be promoting as if they are literal facts.

Out of curiosity what are you doing with the righ man's tongue also being in hell when he asks that a drop of water be placed on his tongue? Is it your claim that if we dig up the grave of a wicked person it is empty because their body is physically in some other place called hell?

At some point you need to join the actual Bible scholars that take your view on the immortal soul and agree that this is a parable and as they say "parables cannot be stretched to stand on all-fours"

 

[BobRyan]

A dormant state? What kind of dormant state?

Dormant. as Paul in 1 Thess 4 says "sleep"... as Christ in John 11 says "sleep"

2. There is no such thing as praying to the dead because the Bible says "the living know that they will die - but the dead know not anything" Eccl 9:5


Isaiah 38: "18 For Sheol cannot thank You,
Death cannot praise You;
Those who go down to the pit cannot hope for Your truth.
19 The living, the living man, he shall praise You,
As I do this day;
The father shall make known Your truth to the children." (NASB)


18 For Sheol cannot thank You,
Death cannot praise You;
Those who go down to the pit cannot hope for Your truth.(NKJV)

18 For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.(KJV)

18 For Sheol doth not confess Thee, Death doth not praise Thee, Those going down to the pit hope not for Thy truth (YLT - Young's Literal Translation)

Bad translation. These verses are about those in Hades not being willing to praise God because they have no hope of receiving mercy.

Nothing says "not being willing" except your own creative writing at that point.

All of the translators I provided would agree with you on the "immortal soul" idea but none of them can bring themselves to wrench the text with an "insert" such as "not willing to" to replace "cannot"

Isaiah 38 is the case of a good king (Hezekiah) thanking God that he is not dead - it is not a good king of Israel claiming that once dead "he would not be willing" .. but rather the case of "the dead cannot".

Hint: Isaiah is a Hebrew text - not a Greek one.

But since you are interested in Greek "instead" here

LXX: "18 For they that are in the grave shall not praise thee, neither shall the dead bless thee, neither shall they that are in Hades hope for thy mercy. 19 The living shall bless thee, as I also do: for from this day shall I beget children, who shall declare thy righteousness"

It is a contrast between the living vs those in the grave.. it is not a contrast between the willing and the not willing.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Hint: Isaiah is a Hebrew text - not a Greek one.

Do you honor the Septuagint as the word of God or do you not?

Dormant. as Paul in 1 Thess 4 says "sleep"... as Christ in John 11 says "sleep"

Luke 16 is a parable. So then "in real life" we have this -
1. Both of them are in heaven in a dormant state just as 1 Thess 4:13-16 states
2. There is no such thing as praying to the dead because the Bible says "the living know that they will die - but the dead know not anything" Eccl 9:5

Rob, I'm not sure I understand what your "real life" analogy is then, if this is truly a parable as you say. When Jesus taught parables, He used things from THIS life to illustrate spiritual principles; sowing seeds, dealing with unjust stewards, separating wheat from tares, etc.

It seems you are starting from a spiritual application already, as if those hearing Him would automatically accept the teaching that Abraham was in Heaven, when the Jews did not understand things that way at all. They believed in Sheol, i.e. in Paradise and Hades.

 

[BobRyan]

Do you honor the Septuagint as the word of God or do you not?

I prefer direct translations from Hebrew to English instead of Hebrew--> Greek --> English.
Having said that,, even the LXX does not give you personal translation of "not willing to praise God". Not sure how this is helping your proposal.

Rob, I'm not sure I understand what your "real life" analogy is then, if this is truly a parable as you say. When Jesus taught parables, He used things from THIS life to illustrate spiritual principles;

Parables use scenarios and images -- and don't have any requirement to be literal in every detail. So for example when "the trees go out to elect a king" in the book of judges - - a good parable and teaches a lesson but not required to be literal in every detail

Parable of The Mustard Seed in Mt 13:31-32.

Mt 13:31 He told them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed, which a man took and planted in his field. 32 Though it is the smallest of all your seeds, yet when it grows, it is the largest of garden plants and becomes a tree, so that the birds of the air come and perch in its branches.”

The mustard seed is not the smallest seed in the world – and the plant that comes from it is not the largest tree in the world either. In fact it may not be classed as a tree at all since it has multiple stems. But this is not an issue because parables are not always literal in every detail. So then no praying to the dead... even though you see it in Luke 16 "parable". No Abraham as sovereign of all of heaven to be prayed to by those not in heaven... even though we see that in the parable in Luke 16. No physical body parts taken from the grave to hell upon death - even though we see that in the parable of Luke 16. None of that is "the point" of the parable according to Christ.

It seems you are starting from a spiritual application already, as if those hearing Him would automatically accept the teaching that Abraham was in Heaven, when the Jews did not understand things that way at all. They believed in Sheol, i.e. in Paradise and Hades.

The hearers would have no problem at all with the idea that Abraham was sovereign of all of heaven -- as a parable. And they had no reason at all to suppose that the "Carpenter from Nazareth" knew who was doing what in heaven that day, or who was praying what in hell, or who was answering back what to the question asked - in heaven.

They assumed he did not have first-hand knowledge of such things - and that it was merely a story to illustrate a point.

 

[BobRyan]

They believed in Sheol, i.e. in Paradise and Hades.

No Bible text says that "Sheol is in paradise" or that "Paradise is in Sheol"

 

[Hidden In Him]

I prefer direct translations from Hebrew to English instead of Hebrew--> Greek --> English.

I can tell you don't want to talk, LoL, because you're not answering my questions.

Nice talking to you anyway.

 

[Taken]

BobRyan said: ↑
So then even those scholars that take your side arguing for immortal soul (such as R.C. Sproul and Matthew Henry) freely admit Luke 16 is a parable when it comes to the rich man and Lazarus - and praying to the dead. Because they know full well (freely admit) that "praying to the dead" and "Abraham as sovereign of heaven deciding who can do what" is not even remotely reality -- rather it is parable.

I am not sure you are following the point.

I am quite sure you understand neither carnally or spiritually.

I gave the exact quote of how Jesus ends the parable.

And what? Dismiss the rest of what Jesus said.

Luke 16
31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’

Here we have Christ's concluding statement which you show no interest at all in

And? Why keep repeating Verse 31 when you are being asked about the rest of Jesus' Words?

- yet details like praying to the dead and Abraham sovereign of all heaven and all saints in Abraham's lap you seem to be promoting as if they are literal facts.

Those ^^^ are not Jesus' Words, but ARE YOUR ATTEMPT to "put your words in Jesus' mouth" like you do to others on this forum.

I absolutely Believe Jesus' Words are TRUE Facts.

But thanks for sharing your teaching THAT what you believe, IS Jesus spoke Lies!

Out of curiosity what are you doing with the righ man's tongue also being in hell when he asks that a drop of water be placed on his tongue? Is it your claim that if we dig up the grave of a wicked person it is empty because their body is physically in some other place called hell?

You are so far out of touch....to ASK such an ignorant question....after being told....Common Knowledge....DEAD Body's ARE In Graves...Not in the center of the Earth!

At some point you need to join the actual Bible scholars that take your view on the immortal soul and agree that this is a parable and as they say "parables cannot be stretched to stand on all-fours"

You should stop trying to stuff your words in others mouths, Especially Jesus....
And take advantage of the Fact that the Lords gave you TWO ears and ONE mouth for a reason.

IOW, close your ONE mouth, and Berily, Verily, with your TWO ears, Listen to ALL of Jesus' Words, and STOP promoting Him as a Liar!

God Bless,
Taken

 

[Taken]

So.......
We have mankind....
Naturally Born IN SIN....called NOT Good.

And we have JESUS...
Absolute TRUTH...called Good.

And we have men WHO...
Speak, AS IF, they have TWO MOUTHS...
1) saying they Believe IN Jesus
2) whilst Teaching Jesus is a liar.

Anyone TRULY IN CHRIST Notice the "tainted fruit" ... and the tactics they use in an attempt to justify making Jesus a liar?

Pitiful!

God Bless,
Taken

 

[BobRyan]

Do you honor the Septuagint as the word of God or do you not?

I prefer direct translations from Hebrew to English instead of Hebrew--> Greek --> English.
Having said that,, even the LXX does not give you personal translation of "not willing to praise God". Not sure how this is helping your proposal.

Rob, I'm not sure I understand what your "real life" analogy is then, if this is truly a parable as you say. When Jesus taught parables, He used things from THIS life to illustrate spiritual principles;

Parables use scenarios and images -- and don't have any requirement to be literal in every detail. So for example when "the trees go out to elect a king" in the book of judges - - a good parable and teaches a lesson but not required to be literal in every detail

Parable of The Mustard Seed in Mt 13:31-32.

Mt 13:31 He told them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed, which a man took and planted in his field. 32 Though it is the smallest of all your seeds, yet when it grows, it is the largest of garden plants and becomes a tree, so that the birds of the air come and perch in its branches.”

The mustard seed is not the smallest seed in the world – and the plant that comes from it is not the largest tree in the world either. In fact it may not be classed as a tree at all since it has multiple stems. But this is not an issue because parables are not always literal in every detail. So then no praying to the dead... even though you see it in Luke 16 "parable". No Abraham as sovereign of all of heaven to be prayed to by those not in heaven... even though we see that in the parable in Luke 16. No physical body parts taken from the grave to hell upon death - even though we see that in the parable of Luke 16. None of that is "the point" of the parable according to Christ.

It seems you are starting from a spiritual application already, as if those hearing Him would automatically accept the teaching that Abraham was in Heaven, when the Jews did not understand things that way at all. They believed in Sheol, i.e. in Paradise and Hades.

The hearers would have no problem at all with the idea that Abraham was sovereign of all of heaven -- as a parable. And they had no reason at all to suppose that the "Carpenter from Nazareth" knew who was doing what in heaven that day, or who was praying what in hell, or who was answering back what to the question asked - in heaven.

They assumed he did not have first-hand knowledge of such things - and that it was merely a story to illustrate a point.

I can tell you don't want to talk, LoL, because you're not answering my questions.

???

What we do see in that response I gave you is "more examples" of parables where every detail is most certainly not "literal". I assume you saw that - from your response.

 

[BobRyan]

Bob....Please explain you mentioning "parable".... Does "parable" mean something particular to you?

Yes it means it is not a historic account of anything. It is a story meant to illustrate a point -- Christ said in Luke 16 that "the point" is "If they do not listen to Moses - neither will they listen though one rises from the dead" -- which is the very thing He was about to do.

So in the parable where the rich man prays to Abraham - the point is not that Abraham is the sovereign of heaven to whom all must pray - but rather the point of the story is "If they do not listen to Moses - neither will they listen though one rises from the dead" -- which is the very thing He was about to do.

... as Christ said ...

No, it is not about praying to Abraham.

So then even those scholars that argue for immortal soul (such as R.C. Sproul and Matthew Henry) freely admit Luke 16 is a parable when it comes to the rich man and Lazarus - and praying to the dead.

Bible details matter.

Sorry Bob, you have been duped.

It is your own immortal-soul promoting Bible scholars that agree with me on this one...

This is " the easy part "

Those ^^^ are not Jesus' Words, but ARE YOUR ATTEMPT to "put your words in Jesus' mouth" like you do to others on this forum.

let's read them "again" ... slowly...

Christ said in Luke 16 that "the point" is "If they do not listen to Moses - neither will they listen though one rises from the dead" -- which is the very thing He was about to do.

I absolutely Believe Jesus' Words are TRUE Facts.

"If they do not listen to Moses - neither will they listen though one rises from the dead" -- which is the very thing He was about to do.

hint: parables are not required to be literal in every detail. "The trees went out to elect a king"...

details matter. emotional responses... not so much