Hell is Forever - Punishment, Torment or Torture - You Would Not Cease to Exist

[Ac28]

Any Bible that contains the man-made concept of the 100% pagan, non-Biblical hell is totally in error. Any Bible that translates the Hebrew word sheol and the Greek words hades, Gehenna, and tartaroo, as "hell", is totally in error. I only forgive the 1611 AV, where the word "hell" or "hel", meaning "a covered place", back then, was used to mean the grave, a covered place. Every human that has ever died is still in the grave. The saved are said to be asleep in the grave because, when they awake at their resurrection, it is as though they had been asleep. The unsaved simply cease to exist.

Ecc 9:5
For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Ecc 9:10
Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
Rom 5:6
For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
1Jn 2:2
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Anyone that believes in a place where our loving God tortures those that don't believe in Him, in fire, 24/7, forever, is essentially saying that the death of Christ on the cross wasn't sufficient to pay for all of the sins of the world. Those that say God will do this is blaspheming against Christ and God the Father.

 

[Phoneman777]

I would agree to God had no beginning, and Created and Made All things, By:
His Ideas, His Word, His Power.



I would agree God:
God records identities (names), and BLOTS out names, and Removes things associated with those (names) from His Presence, and from the Presence of those things WITH Him.

I would agree God:
Burns things that are Against Him, (or otherwise DO NOT Glorify "HIS" Name.)



I would say, as I already did;
A FORMED BODY, comes into a living state (ie is quickened), WHEN a Living soul IS within the BODY.



Yes, the Body returns to dust.
All souls belong to God.
The Life IN the soul is FROM God....and shall go to where He sends it.

Scriptural study of knowledge in Jesus' Doctrine reveals, NO souls have YET had Life Departed out of the souls.



Souls are not "on" a body to fly "off" from.
Souls are IN a body that has been "quickened".
A "quickened" body's own LIFE (BLOOD), comes into a living state, and that LIFE, (BLOOD) maintains the living state of the Body.
When the LIFE (BLOOD) of the Body stops functioning, the BODY becomes physically dead.
As the BODY is DYING, the Living soul, DEPARTS OUT OF THE BODY.

WHERE the Living souls GOES, is dependant upon WHERE God "sends" it.

WHERE God "sends" the Living souls, Departed OUT of dying bodies is dependant upon;
1) IF the man was With or Against God.
2) If the man physically DIED, before or after,
Jesus' Bodily Death.



No. It would be moreso your lack of understanding.

(Continued)

There's nothing in Genesis 2:7 that suggests in the slightest that "a soul enters the body". What Genesis 2:7 DOES say is that the Breath of Life, not the Soul, enters the Body - which at that moment of the union of the Breath of Life and the Body, a Living Soul comes into existence. Living Souls cannot exist except the Breath of Life is united with the Body, and when that Breath of Life is gathered back to God from a Body, that Living Soul ceases to exist. Until you divorce yourself from this pagan idea that man is "given" a Soul or "has in his possession" a Soul, you will continue to believe this falsehood that the Soul never dies. The Soul most certainly dies, according to Ezekiel 18.

You can read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation and you will not find a single instance in which the Soul is named or described as "immortal", yet you continue to write that it is immortal. God alone hath immortality, says Paul. Your belief in the never dying Soul is the foundation for the false doctrine of Eternal Torment, which I believe has done much to drive people from God. It prevented me from having anything much to do with Him for years, for who can love someone who threatens to torment them throughout the ceaseless ages of eternity for rejecting their affections for us?

 

[Phoneman777]

Certainly I agree that the wicked are never granted "eternal life" and will not have "eternal life in the lake of fire".

But be careful about the illustrations -- such things tend to oversimplify for the sake of explanation and in that simplification can be less than accurate in detail, because they are actually removing detail for the sake of simplicity.

Solomon says the dead "know not anything". David prayed that he would not "sleep the sleep of death". I'm not sure it is oversimplification to state that death is the opposite of life, not a continuation of it.

The issue revolves around whether the individual's death will be temporary - which at the Second Coming will ceased to have power over that individual, or permanent - which at the time of the filling of the Lake of Fire by the fire raining down from God out of heaven which consumes the individual and his death becomes permanent.

 

[Phoneman777]

A soul exists because God MADE it.

Yes, but how? By the union of the Body and the Breath of Life. The Soul does not exist for a moment until that union occurs, according to Genesis 2:7.

A soul is Living because God imparted LIFE into it.

What you said: A soul is Living because God imparted LIFE into it (the Soul).
Gen. 2:7 says: A soul is Living because God imparted the Breath of Life into the Body.

Can you not see that what you're saying is disharmonious to what Genesis 2:7 says?

A body is quickened (becomes living), when it has a Living soul Imparted into the body.

What you said: A body is quickened when it has a Living soul imparted into the it.
Gen. 2:7 says: A body is quickened when it has a BREATH OF LIFE imparted into it.

Can you not see that what you're saying is disharmonious to what Genesis 2:7 says?

 

[Taken]

There's nothing in Genesis 2:7 that suggests in the slightest that "a soul enters the body".

What Genesis 2:7 DOES say is that the Breath of Life, not the Soul, enters the Body

Awe, sorry God did not impart a soul into you.
Seems its going to be a dilemma, when there is no soul to depart out of your body.

Glad that is not my dilemma.

Living Souls cannot exist except the Breath of Life is united with the Body,

Disagree.
Luke 16:22, 23

Until you divorce yourself from this pagan idea that man is "given" a Soul or "has in his possession" a Soul,

You are teaching outside of the Gods TRUTH.
1 Thes. 5:23

you will continue to believe this falsehood that the Soul never dies.

Do you have any clue how ridiculous you sound MAKING FALSE CLAIMS, with your words, then railing against your own words?

You can read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation and you will not find a single instance in which the Soul is named or described as "immortal",

So?

yet you continue to write that it is immortal.

AGAIN you MAKE A FALSE CLAIM, then rail against your own words.

Your belief in the never dying Soul

AGAIN you MAKE A FALSE CLAIM, then rail against your own words.

I have NO NEED for YOU to try and SPEAK "your words", FOR Me. I am quite capable of SPEAKING FOR MYSELF!

Learn how to use the QUOTE feature, instead of trying to MAKE FALSE CLAIMS, and "PRETEND" it is what another has said, when they HAVE NOT!

 

[Taken]

Yes, but how? By the union of the Body and the Breath of Life. The Soul does not exist for a moment until that union occurs, according to Genesis 2:7.

What you said: A soul is Living because God imparted LIFE into it (the Soul).
Gen. 2:7 says: A soul is Living because God imparted the Breath of Life into the Body.

Can you not see that what you're saying is disharmonious to what Genesis 2:7 says?

What you said: A body is quickened when it has a Living soul imparted into the it.
Gen. 2:7 says: A body is quickened when it has a BREATH OF LIFE imparted into it.

Can you not see that what you're saying is disharmonious to what Genesis 2:7 says?

Nope.

God SHALL Destroy, unforgiven Body's OF a man and the unforgiven and unsaved Soul OF a man....

Dude.....God does NOT DESTROY "His Breath of LIFE"!

 

[Jun2u]

[QUOTE="Taken, post: 448816, member: 7756"]Dude.....God does NOT DESTROY "His Breath of LIFE"![/QUOTE]

Apparently, you have not read Matthew 10:28!

Note the word is DESTROY.

 

[Taken]

[QUOTE="Taken, post: 448816, member: 7756"]Dude.....God does NOT DESTROY "His Breath of LIFE"!

Apparently, you have not read Matthew 10:28!

Note the word is DESTROY.[/QUOTE]

I am very familiar that particular Scripture.
Yes, unforgiven bodies and unforgiven and unsaved souls will be DESTROYED in hell.

What does that have to do with "LIFE of the body" or "Life of Gods Breath in a soul" ?

God Bless,
Taken

 

[BobRyan]

Apparently, you have not read Matthew 10:28!

Note the word is DESTROY.

I am very familiar that particular Scripture.
Yes, unforgiven bodies and unforgiven and unsaved souls will be DESTROYED in hell.

What does that have to do with "LIFE of the body" or "Life of Gods Breath in a soul" ?

God Bless,
Taken

The point is that we all are living souls - and when the body dies the soul goes dormant (both for saints and for sinners).
That soul is "destroyed" along with the body in the case of the lost who go to the Rev 20 "Lake of Fire".[/QUOTE]

 

[BobRyan]

Solomon says the dead "know not anything".

True - and 1 Thess 4 says they are "Asleep in Jesus" -- in a dormant state.

David prayed that he would not "sleep the sleep of death".

Also true. The dormant state of the soul - while the body "returns to dust".

In this life the body may be killed - but not the soul.

But both body AND soul are "destroyed" in the fiery hell that is the Lake of Fire of Rev 20

 

[Taken]

The point is that we all are living souls - and when the body dies the soul goes dormant (both for saints and for sinners).

The POINT is:
The body of man comes from Dust.
The soul of man comes from God.
Each has LIFE.
The body's LIFE is Blood.
The souls LIFE is Gods Breath.
Both body of a man and the soul of a man, are the man, with one identity.

All body's are Sentenced To DIE.
All living souls Depart out of a Dying Body.

Dependent upon what the Living Flesh Body Chose, will determine Where the Departed soul Shall "DEPART" and "GO TO".

"IF" the living flesh body Chose To Hear, becoming "Enlightened" To the Word of God....( which effects that person receiving "measures" of Faith ... called "tasting" )
"AND"
Such bodily flesh LIFE "Continues" hearing/reading/learning/receiving "Increase" of Faith, from God...
"AND"
Such bodily flesh LIFE ( by such man's own word, from the true thoughts of his heart)...confesses To "ACCEPT" Gods "Conversion" AND Gods Faith-"FULLNESS"...
Then....When that mans bodily Flesh Dies...
His "living soul" will depart his dying body...
"AND GO" TO GOD...

Should a man Fall from Faith, having HAD received "measures" of Faith... then abandoned God...

OR

Outright Rejected God...

When "their" flesh body dies, "their" living soul will depart their dying body, and GO to the heart of the earth....commonly called Hell....and there Wait, separated from God, (per, their choice), WAITING for Judgement and Sentencing (ie. The carrying out of their Judgement).

No, the Living soul does not "go dormant", once departed out of a dying body.

The living soul with God experiences joy and peace with God and the living soul without God experiences anguish and torments without God.

[/QUOTE]That soul is "destroyed" along with the body in the case of the lost who go to the Rev 20 "Lake of Fire".[/QUOTE]

Body's are born daily and Body's die daily.

No departed living souls have YET been Judged or have YET had their Sentence carried out.

Departed living souls Are experiencing "the Consequences" of the Choices their ONCE Living Flesh Body's made.

Some are experiencing....the consequence of Salvation, restoration, forgiveness, joy and peace
While others are experiencing...the consequence of unforgiveness, agony and torments.

Judgement shall commence AFTER All divisions have been accomplished.
The DIVISION;
Those with God...and...Those without God.

LIFE of a dead body, ie its Blood, is dead, and shall not be returned to the body.

LIFE of the soul, ie Gods Breath, does not die, and does Return TO God, who gave it.

The body and soul VOID of LIFE shall Then be Destroyed and remembrance of them shall cease.

God Bless,
Taken

 

[Helen]

"Forever" is not forever as we think...same as " everlasting" ...is not everlasting.

“Eternity,” “eternal,” “forever and ever,” “timeless”, “ageless,” “everlasting.”

Today, such terminology is used frequently throughout the teachings of the Christian church. They are in fact as pervasive within Christendom as they are within secular philosophical circles.
But what if such words were not only found to be unscriptural…but also unknown in the ancient world of the Hebrews and Greeks?


God's Plan and purpose is, and will be, PERFECT...

 

[BobRyan]

The POINT is:
The body of man comes from Dust.
The soul of man comes from God.

We all agree to that.

And "almost all" agree with this -


Matthew 10:28
28 Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Jude 1:7 Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.

Sodom is not still on fire -- rather it is ashes.

2 Peter 2: 5 and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly; 6 and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly; 7 and delivered righteous Lot NKJV

6 and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter; NASB

 

[BobRyan]

The living soul with God experiences joy and peace with God

There is not one text in the Bible that describes the "DEAD in Christ" 1 Thess 4 as "the living soul with God".
Paul say by contrast to "the DEAD in Christ" -- "WE who ARE ALIVE and remain shall be caught up together with THEM in the air" 1 Thess 4. (as we all know)

 

[Enoch111]

There is not one text in the Bible that describes the "DEAD in Christ" 1 Thess 4 as "the living soul with God".

Yes there is at least one text which says exactly that (Rev 6:9,10):

9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

Do you get the picture, or does it have to be spelled out?

1. "Slain for the Word of God..." = killed = martyred = "dead in Christ"

2. "The souls of them that were slain" = their souls and spirits with God

3. "And they cried with a loud voice" = "the living souls with God" crying to God.

So now are you prepared to give up your false belief that the souls and spirits of the saints DO NOT go to be with God and Christ?

 

[Taken]

[QUOTE="BobRyan, post: 448979, member: 7908...Also true. The dormant state of the soul - while the body "returns to dust".

No. Bodies Die, buried, rot, return to Dust.
Read Luke 16, of a picture of Hell, and what Living souls departed their dead buried bodies are experiencing.

In this life the body may be killed - but not the soul.

Men can Kill bodies, they cannot kill the soul.
Godcan AND will Destroy Bodies And Souls in hell.

God Bless,
Taken

 

[BobRyan]

[QUOTE="BobRyan, post: 448979, member: 7908...Also true. The dormant state of the soul - while the body "returns to dust".

Luke 16 is a parable about praying to the dead - where Abraham "alone" is prayed to - and is in charge of all the saints - who are sitting in Abraham's lap.

Many Bible scholars (such as R.C. Sproul) admit to this Bible fact even though they share your view on what happens to the soul when someone dies.

next.

 

[BobRyan]

The living soul with God experiences joy and peace with God

There is not one text in the Bible that describes the "DEAD in Christ" 1 Thess 4 as "the living soul with God".
Paul say by contrast to "the DEAD in Christ" -- "WE who ARE ALIVE and remain shall be caught up together with THEM in the air" 1 Thess 4. (as we all know)

(watch carefully how NOT presenting a text that saying "the dead are living souls with God" - is offered is IF they had such a text)

Yes there is at least one text which says exactly that (Rev 6:9,10):

9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

1. Good use of apocalyptic imagery and symbols
2. Still don't have text that the dead are literally called "alive with God"

So now are you prepared to give up your false belief that the souls and spirits of the saints DO NOT go to be with God and Christ?

No wait! I never claim that the spirit does not go to be with God at death.

You are conflating two different things.

My claim is that the Bible is correct when it says they are those 'who have fallen asleep' in Jesus.

1 Thess 4
13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

TWO groups being contrasted.

"We who ARE ALIVE and remain" -- as compared to

about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Luke 16 is a parable about praying to the dead - where Abraham "alone" is prayed to - and is in charge of all the saints - who are sitting in Abraham's lap.

Many Bible scholars (such as R.C. Sproul) admit to this Bible fact even though they share your view on what happens to the soul when someone dies.

next.

If Jesus' intent was to teach on praying to the dead, why did He have the rich man praying from Hell?

 

[BobRyan]

If Jesus' intent was to teach on praying to the dead, why did He have the rich man praying from Hell?

Its a parable -- given to the Jews after they started grousing about Christ's parables. So He gives them one with Abraham in charge of all heaven... Abraham the sovereign of heaven to be prayed to... Abraham Sovereign of heaven to determine if anyone among the dead saints will be enabled/permitted to be "resurrected" so that they can communicate with the living. And in that "story" Jesus said the moral of the story is "if they do not listen to MOSES then they will not listen EVEN though one should rise from the DEAD (Christ's resurrection)"


Ignoring Christ's own lesson on the parable - some folks focus entirely on the prayers to the dead aspect of it ... Jesus is not endorsing praying to the dead - rather he is using a parable - filled with symbols ... to teach a lesson.