Hell is Forever - Punishment, Torment or Torture - You Would Not Cease to Exist

[Nancy]

Did God create man knowing he would sin? If so, God created sin.

It seems as though you are adding sin and evil to the character of God, who made all things very good. Gen. 1:31 “And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.”

 

[Nancy]

You cannot know God's grace or any of his other attributes apart from sin.

Adam and Eve did.

 

[Taken]

There is not one text in the Bible that describes the "DEAD in Christ" 1 Thess 4 as "the living soul with God".
Paul say by contrast to "the DEAD in Christ" -- "WE who ARE ALIVE and remain shall be caught up together with THEM in the air" 1 Thess 4. (as we all know)

The "DEAD IN CHRIST" is speaking of "those bodies Crucified With Christ"...

IF one IS crucified WITH Christ, they have fulfilled their Death Sentence, and LIVE IN Jesus' risen body....UNTIL the mans Body is Risen in Glory.

Bodies are NOT SAVED, they are Sentenced to DIE.

It is SOULS, that become SAVED, and ONCE Saved, are forever with the Lord.
Be the soul IN the body...it is with the Lord.
Be it OUT of the body......it is with the Lord.

God Bless,
Taken

 

[Dave L]

Adam and Eve did.

Where was the grace of God before Adam sinned?

 

[Dave L]

It seems as though you are adding sin and evil to the character of God, who made all things very good. Gen. 1:31 “And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.”

All was good in God's sight because he created all for his glory. Sin revealed his glory.

 

[Taken]

Luke 16 is a parable about praying to the dead - where Abraham "alone" is prayed to - and is in charge of all the saints - who are sitting in Abraham's lap.

Many Bible scholars (such as R.C. Sproul) admit to this Bible fact even though they share your view on what happens to the soul when someone dies.

next.

Bob....Please explain you mentioning "parable".... Does "parable" mean something particular to you?

No, it is not about praying to Abraham.

God Bless,
Taken

 

[lforrest]

Its interesting how Jesus says: God is God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. Then often refers to dead people as asleep.

And those who he said are dead he does not even respect. Let the dead bury their own.

 

[Nancy]

All was good in God's sight because he created all for his glory. Sin revealed his glory.

His Glory is from eternity. Sin revealed His grace.

 

[BobRyan]

Bob....Please explain you mentioning "parable".... Does "parable" mean something particular to you?

Yes it means it is not a historic account of anything. It is a story meant to illustrate a point -- Christ said in Luke 16 that "the point" is "If they do not listen to Moses - neither will they listen though one rises from the dead" -- which is the very thing He was about to do.

So in the parable where the rich man prays to Abraham - the point is not that Abraham is the sovereign of heaven to whom all must pray - but rather the point of the story is "If they do not listen to Moses - neither will they listen though one rises from the dead" -- which is the very thing He was about to do.

... as Christ said ...

No, it is not about praying to Abraham.

So then even those scholars that argue for immortal soul (such as R.C. Sproul and Matthew Henry) freely admit Luke 16 is a parable when it comes to the rich man and Lazarus - and praying to the dead.

Bible details matter.

 

[Dave L]

His Glory is from eternity. Sin revealed His grace.

How many of God's attributes can you think of that would remain unknown apart from sin? I can think of several right off the bat, and probably more in time.

 

[BobRyan]

Its interesting how Jesus says: God is God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. Then often refers to dead people as asleep.

And those who he said are dead he does not even respect. Let the dead bury their own.

in Matt 22 -- which you quote... Jesus said "but regarding the resurrection of the dead" He then makes the case for the future resurrection of the dead -- against Sadducees who thought they had an iron clad argument against future resurrection. Christ gives them irrefutable proof of the future resurrection that they themselves could not escape.

1. Matt 22 "God is not the God of the dead" (Isaiah 38:18 for example)
2. Matt 22 God says to Moses at the burning bush "I AM the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob" -
3. Christ's argument is that the only way these are both true - is a future resurrection. The Sadducees were "put to silence"

 

[Hidden In Him]

Its a parable -- given to the Jews after they started grousing about Christ's parables. So He gives them one with Abraham in charge of all heaven... Abraham the sovereign of heaven to be prayed to... Abraham Sovereign of heaven to determine if anyone among the dead saints will be enabled/permitted to be "resurrected" so that they can communicate with the living. And in that "story" Jesus said the moral of the story is "if they do not listen to MOSES then they will not listen EVEN though one should rise from the DEAD (Christ's resurrection)"

If Abraham is in Heaven, where is the rich man?

 

[Helen]

Where was the grace of God before Adam sinned?

...slain from before the beginning of the world. In the OT hidden behind the vail ..in the NT released when the vail was rent.

 

[Nancy]

Where was the grace of God before Adam sinned?

His grace for mankind was not needed before sin. And, as grace is part of His character, it has always been there.

 

[Taken]

Yes it means it is not a historic account of anything. It is a story meant to illustrate a point --
... as Christ said ...

No, it is not about praying to Abraham.

Sorry Bob, you have been duped.

Picture it;
Jesus speaking to a CROWD.
Matt 13:34
In the crowd are people who HEAR Jesus speaking IN PARABLES.

Some Have YOUR 'Carnal" reaction....
Awe He is "JUST telling a story to make A point".

You landed on the point Jesus was trying to make, is: "IF men didn't listen to Moses, Why would they listen to a man risen from the dead"?

So look back at the Crowd....left with a question, moreso than a point....and men walk away, saying eh, He's just a story teller.

So what IF another man Listening, thinks the Point of Jesus Parable IS about greedy rich men not sharing a meal with a begger, but instead tossing the begger crumbs?

How do you Decide, If you have understood the POINT or the Other has it right?

Now Look at the crowd of those who DID NOT WALK AWAY.....WHY didn't they?
Didn't they ALL Hear the exact Same Words Jesus spoke?

They DID NOT WALK AWAY....BECAUSE....
It does not matter WHAT Jesus' speech is CALLED....a Parable, a Poem, a Story......

Every Word out of His mouth IS TRUTH!

It was prophecy that He would open His mouth in PARABLES. Matt 13:35

It is revealed HE IS, the TRUTH. John 14:6

It is Revealed He came to REVEAL things that had been KEPT SECRET. Matt 13:35

It is Revealed His PARABLES "ARE" His Doctrine. Matt 4:2

So Brilliantly....Jesus Speaks with ONE speech to ONE Crowd....Matt 13:13

And some will cherry pick and guess what IS His point.....WHILE others will Trust to believe Every Word that comes out of His mouth IS TRUE....and they JUST LEARNED a mystery that had been Kept Secret from their forefathers.

Try reading Jesus' Doctrine; His Parables; IN the spirit of Truth He has given you, and see IF you don't become Enlightened to mysteries Of absolute truth that had not before been revealed.

God Bless,
Taken

 

[BobRyan]

Bob....Please explain you mentioning "parable".... Does "parable" mean something particular to you?

Yes it means it is not a historic account of anything. It is a story meant to illustrate a point -- Christ said in Luke 16 that "the point" is "If they do not listen to Moses - neither will they listen though one rises from the dead" -- which is the very thing He was about to do.

So in the parable where the rich man prays to Abraham - the point is not that Abraham is the sovereign of heaven to whom all must pray - but rather the point of the story is "If they do not listen to Moses - neither will they listen though one rises from the dead" -- which is the very thing He was about to do.

... as Christ said ...

No, it is not about praying to Abraham.

So then even those scholars that argue for immortal soul (such as R.C. Sproul and Matthew Henry) freely admit Luke 16 is a parable when it comes to the rich man and Lazarus - and praying to the dead.

Bible details matter.

Sorry Bob, you have been duped.

It is your own immortal-soul promoting Bible scholars that agree with me on this one...

This is " the easy part "

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said: ↑
Its a parable -- given to the Jews after they started grousing about Christ's parables. So He gives them one with Abraham in charge of all heaven... Abraham the sovereign of heaven to be prayed to... Abraham Sovereign of heaven to determine if anyone among the dead saints will be enabled/permitted to be "resurrected" so that they can communicate with the living. And in that "story" Jesus said the moral of the story is "if they do not listen to MOSES then they will not listen EVEN though one should rise from the DEAD (Christ's resurrection)"

If Abraham is in Heaven, where is the rich man?

Luke 16 is a parable. So then "in real life" we have this -
1. Both of them are in heaven in a dormant state just as 1 Thess 4:13-16 states
2. There is no such thing as praying to the dead because the Bible says "the living know that they will die - but the dead know not anything" Eccl 9:5


Isaiah 38: "18 For Sheol cannot thank You,
Death cannot praise You;
Those who go down to the pit cannot hope for Your truth.
19 The living, the living man, he shall praise You,
As I do this day;
The father shall make known Your truth to the children." (NASB)

18 For Sheol cannot thank You,
Death cannot praise You;
Those who go down to the pit cannot hope for Your truth.(NKJV)

18 For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.(KJV)

18 For Sheol doth not confess Thee, Death doth not praise Thee, Those going down to the pit hope not for Thy truth (Young's Literal Translation)



Matthew 22 "God is not the God of the DEAD"

 

[Nancy]

How many of God's attributes can you think of that would remain unknown apart from sin? I can think of several right off the bat, and probably more in time.

Gods attributes are Gods attributes. He does not change. He makes Himself known in whatever way He chooses, and it is not the same for every person. Adam and Eve walked with Him in the garden, they knew His goodness and His grace and His desire for their obedience, hence, His justness-before they chose to dis-obey. God nor His character and attributes never have and never will change, even despite the circumstances.

 

[BobRyan]

Gods attributes are Gods attributes. He does not change. He makes Himself known in whatever way He chooses, and it is not the same for every person. Adam and Eve walked with Him in the garden, they knew His goodness and His grace and His desire for their obedience, hence, His justness-before they chose to dis-obey. God nor His character and attributes never have and never will change, even despite the circumstances.

A parent loves their child - but does "need" to take them out in the wild and let a lion almost eat them -- only to then rescue them and then say "I had to do that to show you how brave and loving I am - willing to risk my life to save you".

So while I agree that the crisis reveals some really great things about God - I do not agree that infinite wisdom could not show us that - some other, nicer, less-painful way had there been no rebellion.

 

[Truth]

It is written, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord."
The Lord will have all of eternity to exact His vengeance on the souls burning in eternal fire.

When God rained down Brimstone on Sodom & Gomorrah Did the people perish from the Fire caused by the Brimstone? No! the cities were built of limestone and the stone was Mortared with Asphalt, which was a materiel at hand, which is still there today, and even in God's Judgement the burning brimstone, which is sulfur, when it burn's it put's of Sulfur Dioxide, which would render anyone unconscious, and die! So in God's Judgement He still had Mercy, so as the people did not die a horrible death, as being burned to death! Even in His Judgement He also Had Mercy!