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No, i didnt say they are judged when they die.
Are you writing to the right person???
I said that HELL is where they go, as soon as they die.
They wait there for Revelation 20.
God's Eternal JUDGEMENT, is already on you, if you are not born again.
You are already damned if you are not born again, and are breathing. John 3:36
So, this means that all Christ rejectors, currently breathing, are already DAMNED.
They are just waiting to go where all the Christ rejectors end up, after they die.
= Hell first, and the Lake of fire, eventually and forever.
Hi Behold,
I do believe they will be very sorry but also very angry with God, shaking their fists, thinking they were "good people", without Christ. Course, I do not think they will be repentant, just angry with God. JMHO
A lot of them think its better to serve in hell than be a slave in heaven.
Thats a movie Quote i heard some years ago...
Many think that Hell is a everlasting party where all those who didnt want that "stupid Christ", end up to be together.
These are those who think that "Christ is just a crutch for the weak".
They have no idea what is coming their way.
They have no idea that its a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the Living God and not have the BLood Of Jesus applied to you.
Nancy
Well-Known Member
Ah, yes, I have heard that quote too. Also the "crutch" thing. Funny thing is, the "world" uses so very many "crutches" to get through a life without Him. Oh how I pray for my unsaved friends and loved ones.
This is what you have said previously in this thread (indented paragraphs):
Hell is ... full of people who hate God, rejected Christ and do not want to be a part of God's family, before they died. ...
So, God created the place for them to go, as He can't allow them to be in Heaven with the people who chose to be there, and He will never.
Hell is only filled with Christ rejectors.
So, God created the place for them to go, as He can't allow them to be in Heaven with the people who chose to be there, and He will never.
Hell is only filled with Christ rejectors.
So you seem to be implying that people don't die when they die, i.e. that they don't fall into an unconscious "sleep" (as Jesus and the Apostles likened it), and that therefore they must go somewhere else where they are concious. You say that those with no faith in Jesus go to Hell. Where do the Christians go? They're not yet in heaven, for Paul said (1Th 4:15-17):
"For this we tell you, by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord shall in no way precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself shall come down from heaven with a commanding shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the blast of God’s shofar, and the dead in Messiah shall rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left behind, will be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air—and so we shall always be with the Lord."
So Pauls says that dead Christians are asleep (unconscious) down here on earth and that they are resurrected first, before those that are alive are snatched up to join them. So there is no need to seperate Christians and non-Christians at death. Remember what I quoted above from John 5:
22) For the Father judges no one, but he has given all judgment to the Son,
24) “Most certainly I tell you, he who hears my word, and believes him who sent me, has eternal life, and doesn’t come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
[Those that now hear, believe and obey - Christians - are promised eternal life. They do not go through the 1,000 year period of trial and judgement.]
25) Most certainly, I tell you, the hour comes, and now is, when the dead will hear the Son of God’s voice; and those who hear will live.
[The "and now is" is not in the Sinaitic. With it in it's a repeat of the previous verse, otherwise it is looking forward to the resurrection.]
26) For as the Father has life in himself, even so he gave to the Son also to have life [immortality] in himself.
27) He also gave him authority to execute judgment, because he is a son of man.
28) Don’t marvel at this, for the hour comes, in which all that are in the tombs will hear his voice,
29) and will come out; those who have done good, to the resurrection of life; and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment.
So Jesus said that the dead, both good and evil, both believers and non-believers, are still in their tombs/graves. When the believers (Christians) are resurrected out of their graves, they will have eternal life. The non-believers will be resurrected to live during the 1,000 years of trial and final judgement. Jesus is the saviour of all mankind, not just Christians - "we have set our trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe" (1 Timothy 4:10).
Hell is not about, being punished, as that is the wrong idea.
That is the purpose of Hell. To punish them...
That is the purpose of Hell. To punish them...
Err, you surely can't believe that hell is not about being punished, and yet the purpose of hell is to punish people!
So, when they left their body and were immediately in Hell, came as quite a surprise to them, no doubt.
I think you should consider that ... immediately after you take your last breath ... is going to cause you, in hell, to realize 4 things in a matter of seconds...
I think you should consider that ... immediately after you take your last breath ... is going to cause you, in hell, to realize 4 things in a matter of seconds...
1.) It was all TRUE
2.) I can't get out.
3. ) Im going to burn
4. ) Its never going to stop burning.
2.) I can't get out.
3. ) Im going to burn
4. ) Its never going to stop burning.
So that sounds as though you believe that hell is a place of torment in flames, and that people go there as soon as they die. Therefore they are being punished immediately that they die, even though they have not yet been judged whether they are worthy of eternal life. So not just guilty until proven innocent, but punishment before trial!
Hell, = FOREVER APART from those who want Jesus, love God, and are born again.
"Forever apart" implies the judgement has taken place and that there is no chance for anyone who has arrived in "hell". And you are also saying that they'll be tortured there in flames for over 1,000 years, and then they will be taken out of hell and judged before the white throne mentioned in Rev 20, and yet you're sure they will all be found guilty and destroyed (second death) - although it sound's as though you believe that the second death is also not a death and that everyone has eternal life!
John 3:36 is the prophet John the Baptist saying, "One who believes in the Son has eternal life, but one who disobeys the Son won’t see life, but the wrath of God remains on him". We all have the wrath of God on us and are condemned to death because of sin, but all who believe in our saviour Jesus will be granted eternal life, whether they believe now and become Christians, or whether they believe during the 1,000 years of Christ's rule after the resurrection. Those who still disobey during that trial and judgement for eternal life, will then have God's wrath remain on them, rather than be lifted, and they will be punished with the second (eternal) death.
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Its obvious that whatever religion or similar you are a part of, has not explained to you some reality regarding the Spiritual Realm.
Let me.
You, the real you, is your SPIRIT.
It LIVES inside a BODY made of DIRT (Flesh), that is going to DIE.
Feel that heartbeat inside your chest? That is not your Spirit, that is your BODY., and it is going to DIE.
You are exactly one stopped heartbeat from leaving your body, and entering into what lies beyond your last breath.
Do you follow me so far?
You are a living Spirit, inside an EARTH SUIT.
You are a living Spirit, experiencing life on earth, in a BODY.
The earth suit, is your body, and your body will die.
Your Spirit that lives in your body, that is your real SELF, = will never die, and it will go somewhere after your body dies.
Where?
1. HELL
2. HEAVEN
See....Where your Spirit will end up after your body dies, is up to YOU.
YOU get to decide, while you are breathing, were your SPIRIT,.....and this can be define as your "soul", tho this is not Theologically accurate, but as you are not familiar with any of this, .......you can think of your Spirit as your Soul........and that Spirit/Soul is ETERNAL.
That real YOU< your SPIRIT... will never die, and it is going somewhere after your body returns to the DIRT.
Do you want to go to heaven?
Then do what Jesus told you to do. "you must be BORN AGAIN".
If you do not want to go to heaven, then just die, never having been born again, and you will immediately go to Hell, according to your choice.
God will honor in eternity, what you chose on earth.
Believe it.
Final answer.
BARNEY BRIGHT
Well-Known Member
The scriptures began to be written in the Hebrew language. When the Hebrew scriptures spoke where the dead go it used a word Sheol. Sheol represented a place where the righteous and unrighteous went when they died. So Sheol simply referred to the abode of the dead and suggested no moral distinctions. Because of that, the english word Hell isn't an accurate word to use to replace Sheol or Hades. People today define the word Hell as a place of only the unrighteous go when they die and many people believe their souls are in cruel pain because they're alive and on fire. But as I said Sheol wasn't referred to this way because both righteous and unrighteous went there we they died. When someone replaces a word such as Sheol or Hades that word must accurately represent an abode where both the righteous and unrighteous go when a person dies. The meaning given to the word hell today is the one portrayed in Dante's Divine Comedy and Milton's Paradise Lost which meaning is completely foreign to the original definition of the word.
Well, you left something out that matters.
You left out Jesus.
Do you remember Him?
He's kinda important, .. would you agree?
So, This Same Christ, spoke more about Hell then He spoke about Heaven.
He told YOU, that its better that YOU tear out your own eye, or cut off your own hand then to end up in Hell.
"Hell".
So, does that sound like the Sheol you are misunderstanding?
Does that sound like the Grave?
Consider it, carefully.
You are not providing any Bible verses to confirm your conjecture. You are assuming that everyone already has eternal life and are effectively immortal (immortal meaning that you cannot possibly die, an indestructible existence that is not dependent on food, drink or conditions of any kind), but you are providing no evidence to confirm that. And yet Pauls says of God, "who alone has immortality" (1 Timothy 6:16). He also tells us, "Christ Jesus, who abolished death, and brought life and immortality to light through the Good News" (2 Timothy 1:10). It was Jesus who revealed the path to eternal life, and the opportunity for immortality by becoming part of God's new creation in Christ, to become one of God's sons, to be given the divine nature, similar to God's nature, and to Jesus', who since his resurrection also has an immortal nature. Until that point there was no hint that anyone could possibly become immortal.
(Rom 8:29) Because whom he has foreknown, he has also predestinated to be conformed to the image of his Son, so that he should be the firstborn among many brethren.
(1Co 15:49) And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
Paul revealed this mystery in 1 Corinthians 15 (he was revealing something that was previously hidden and unknown):
51) Behold, I tell you a mystery: We all shall not sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52) in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53) For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
So no human is immortal yet (and in order to become immortal they need to be changed so they won't be human any longer).
As I've already mentioned, when we die we go into an unconscious state, a sleep. Jesus and the apostles said this, but it is also stated in the Old Testament, e.g. :
(Deu 31:16) Yahweh said to Moses, “Behold, you shall sleep with your fathers.
(2Sa 7:12) When your days are fulfilled, and you sleep with your fathers
(Job 14:12) so man lies down and doesn’t rise. Until the heavens are no more, they shall not awake, nor be roused out of their sleep.
(Psa 13:3) Behold, and answer me, Yahweh, my God. Give light to my eyes, lest I sleep in death;
(Dan 12:2) Many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
This is totally contradictory to your idea that when we die we will be conscious and could be tormented in any way.
(Psalm 146:4) His breath goes forth; he returns to the earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
No! It is up to God.
No, it is not eternal. You're believing Satan's first lie!
(Mat 10:28) Don’t be afraid of those who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul. Rather, fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.
Jesus is here clearly saying that the "spirit/soul" can be destroyed, and that he has the power, and authority from God, to destroy those who are incorrigible at the end of the 1,000 years of his reign.
You cannot do that. He didn't command us to be born again, as if it was something we could do. He merely stated that we would have to be born again in order to have a share in God's kingdom. It is God, through Jesus, who causes us to be born again, and changes us to have the divine spirit nature.
Are you sure you don't want to phone a friend?
You've claimed that before, but I suspect that is not true. Just a quick count of the number of times Jesus used the words hell and heaven gives hell = 16 times, heaven = 125 times. So I remain unconvinced of your claim.
Kingdom Hall doesn't overrule the Scriptures. Nor do your opinions.
Revelation 20:10 (NKJV)
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Amen! Not to mention Luke 16 is perfectly clear.
"The rich man also died"
"being in torments"
"he cried"
"I am tormented in this flame"
"this place of torment"
Luke 16:22-28 (NKJV)
22 The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.' 25 But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.' 27 Then he said, 'I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house, 28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.'
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Another Kingdom Hall disciple?You are not providing any Bible verses to confirm your conjecture. You are assuming that everyone already has eternal life and are effectively immortal (immortal meaning that you cannot possibly die, an indestructible existence that is not dependent on food, drink or conditions of any kind), but you are providing no evidence to confirm that. And yet Pauls says of God, "who alone has immortality" (1 Timothy 6:16). He also tells us, "Christ Jesus, who abolished death, and brought life and immortality to light through the Good News" (2 Timothy 1:10). It was Jesus who revealed the path to eternal life, and the opportunity for immortality by becoming part of God's new creation in Christ, to become one of God's sons, to be given the divine nature, similar to God's nature, and to Jesus', who since his resurrection also has an immortal nature. Until that point there was no hint that anyone could possibly become immortal.
(Rom 8:29) Because whom he has foreknown, he has also predestinated to be conformed to the image of his Son, so that he should be the firstborn among many brethren.
(1Co 15:49) And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
Paul revealed this mystery in 1 Corinthians 15 (he was revealing something that was previously hidden and unknown):
51) Behold, I tell you a mystery: We all shall not sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52) in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53) For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
So no human is immortal yet (and in order to become immortal they need to be changed so they won't be human any longer).
As I've already mentioned, when we die we go into an unconscious state, a sleep. Jesus and the apostles said this, but it is also stated in the Old Testament, e.g. :
(Deu 31:16) Yahweh said to Moses, “Behold, you shall sleep with your fathers.
(2Sa 7:12) When your days are fulfilled, and you sleep with your fathers
(Job 14:12) so man lies down and doesn’t rise. Until the heavens are no more, they shall not awake, nor be roused out of their sleep.
(Psa 13:3) Behold, and answer me, Yahweh, my God. Give light to my eyes, lest I sleep in death;
(Dan 12:2) Many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
This is totally contradictory to your idea that when we die we will be conscious and could be tormented in any way.
(Psalm 146:4) His breath goes forth; he returns to the earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
No! It is up to God.
No, it is not eternal. You're believing Satan's first lie!
(Mat 10:28) Don’t be afraid of those who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul. Rather, fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.
Jesus is here clearly saying that the "spirit/soul" can be destroyed, and that he has the power, and authority from God, to destroy those who are incorrigible at the end of the 1,000 years of his reign.
You cannot do that. He didn't command us to be born again, as if it was something we could do. He merely stated that we would have to be born again in order to have a share in God's kingdom. It is God, through Jesus, who causes us to be born again, and changes us to have the divine spirit nature.
Are you sure you don't want to phone a friend?
Indeed. But he wasn't expressing his opinion, just facts. So let's consider the Scriptures. The Hebrew word sheol occurs 65 times in the Old Testament. It is translated in the KJV as 'hell' 31 times, 'grave' 31 times and 'pit' 3 times. The KJV was translated over 400 years ago, and the old English Anglo-Saxon word "helan" or "hell" that they used meant "to cover" or "to hide out of sight". When farmers put potatoes or other root crops in underground cellars to prevent winter freezing, they called it "helling them", i.e. putting them into the ground and covering them up. Putting a roof on a new house was called "helling". It was entirely natural for the translators to use either hell or grave for "sheol", SINCE BOTH WORDS MEANT THE SAME THING! "Hell" is very simply the "grave"! They appear to have chosen to use the word 'grave' when it referred to good people, and the word 'hell' when it referred to bad people, but there is no logical reason to do that.
Jacob expected to go to "sheol" when he died (Gen 37:35, 42:38 - translated as 'grave' in the KJV). Godly Job, in his sorrow, wished that he had died at birth and gone to "sheol" (Job 3:11-19). In those same verses he describes it as a place where "the wicked cease from troubling; and there the weary be at rest ... they hear not the voice of the oppressor". Hardly a place of screams and torture and fire! Job 3:11-19 (TLV):
11) Why did I not die at birth and expire as I exited the womb?
12) Why did the knees welcome me, and breasts that I might nurse?
13) For now I would be lying down and quiet; I would be asleep and at rest
14) with kings and counselors of the earth, who built for themselves places now desolate,
15) with princes who had gold, who filled their houses with silver.
16) Or why was I not hidden like a stillborn, like infants who never saw light?
17) There the wicked cease from turmoil, and there the weary are at rest.
18) Prisoners are at ease together; they do not hear the voice of the taskmaster.
19) Small and great are there; and slave is free from his master.
Job 14 (WEB):12) Why did the knees welcome me, and breasts that I might nurse?
13) For now I would be lying down and quiet; I would be asleep and at rest
14) with kings and counselors of the earth, who built for themselves places now desolate,
15) with princes who had gold, who filled their houses with silver.
16) Or why was I not hidden like a stillborn, like infants who never saw light?
17) There the wicked cease from turmoil, and there the weary are at rest.
18) Prisoners are at ease together; they do not hear the voice of the taskmaster.
19) Small and great are there; and slave is free from his master.
10) But man dies and is powerless. Man expires—and where is he?
11) As water evaporates from the sea and a river drains away and dries up,
12) so a person lies down and does not rise; until the heavens are no more, people will not awake, or be roused from their sleep.
13) “Oh that You would hide me in Sheol, and conceal me until Your wrath has passed! Oh that You would set a time for me and then remember me!
Ecclesiastes 9:10 tells us that "there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom in the grave [sheol], whither thou goest", and that "the dead know not any thing" (vs 5,10). Psalm 6:5 says, "For in death there is no memory of you. In Sheol, who shall give you thanks?", which is similar to Psalm 115:17, "The dead don’t praise Yah, neither any who go down into silence".11) As water evaporates from the sea and a river drains away and dries up,
12) so a person lies down and does not rise; until the heavens are no more, people will not awake, or be roused from their sleep.
13) “Oh that You would hide me in Sheol, and conceal me until Your wrath has passed! Oh that You would set a time for me and then remember me!
Everyone who dies go to sheol - "What man is he who shall live and not see death, who shall deliver his soul from the power of Sheol?" (Psalm 89:48).
The symbolic lake of fire and brimstone is not sheol! Indeed, sheol is destroyed in the lake of fire:
"Then death and Sheol were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death—the lake of fire." (Rev 20:14).
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Then why are you doing the JW TWIST? Belief in Hell is not required for residency therein.
"Symbolic is your word, not God's. Death does not mean cease to exist. Sure you're not JW?
Just because the Jehovah's Witnesses believe in something that does not mean it's not true. They also believe in Jesus, that he was the son of God who gave his life in sacrifice for all mankind, and who was resurrected to life again by God. Do you not believe that because the Jehovah's Witnesses believe it? Believe the word of God beause it is the truth.
This is a quick answer to your statement...
Jehovah witnesses do NOT believe Jesus is God... they consider Him lesser than God... therefore they REJECT the trinity. Anyone who rejects the trinity are not entering the kingdom of heaven.
This is what they say about WHO JESUS IS.... (taken from the Jehovah Witness website).
We believe in Jesus, who said: “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” (John 14:6) We have faith that Jesus came to earth from heaven and gave his perfect human life as a ransom sacrifice. (Matthew 20:28) His death and resurrection make it possible for those exercising faith in him to gain everlasting life. (John 3:16) We also believe that Jesus is now ruling as King of God’s heavenly Kingdom, which will soon bring peace to the entire earth. (Revelation 11:15) However, we take Jesus at his word when he said: “The Father is greater than I am.” (John 14:28) So we do not worship Jesus, as we do not believe that he is Almighty God.
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