Homosexual Church Dream

[shnarkle]

Can you even imagne the huge load guilt and shame this lying sick minded sexual pervert must carry??

Evidently, it's a load he prefers to carry.

know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers,

The church today is packed with fornicators, idolaters, and adulterers. Why not add homosexuals to the list? Until the church gets honest with itself, there is no way they're going to keep homosexuals from entering their ranks. The churches that have already started ordaining homosexuals, as well as marrying them, they see the writing on the walls. They would rather justify their own sin, and continue to add to their ranks, than deal with the beam in their own eye. The rest of the churches will follow suit. Those who don't must go underground, and drop their tax exempt status.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Perhaps you might present some example of what you're referring to. People are discussing the issue of homosexuality, and whether or not homosexuals should be allowed into church. How is that not judging the homosexual? How does the homosexual enter in without being judged? There are a number of people who have been quite vocal about judging them, even pointing out that they're already damned. I'm not one of those saying that so I don't know why you're asking me this in the first place.

Agree...that is why I asked you. why would I ask someone I might not want to follow the example of?

I'm pointing out that to allow or excuse one abomination while forbidding another is blatant hypocrisy.

agree again. As I am also this hypocrite as we have discussed.

Unlike just about everyone else on this site, I am consistent in my reasoning. I have no double standard. I'm not the one playing with unequal weights here.

maybe true but that hasn’t been determined for certain. The most difficultly I have is in understanding what you are saying. One minute I’m thinking you are saying this or that and then you post something like you did above ”A mother Teresa is just as rotten as a Hitler or a Stalin in comparison to God.” and I realize I speculate a lot about what you are saying without fully knowing what you are saying. BUT agree there are double standards clearly here.

 

[shnarkle]

Agree...that is why I asked you. why would I ask someone I might not want to follow the example of?

You might ask simply to point out that someone is judging. This seems to be a pervasive technique on this forum. That's why I asked.

agree again. As I am also this hypocrite as we have discussed.

Who isn't? Ironically, if you admit you're a hypocrite, by definition, you can't be a hypocrite. If one knowingly sins, there "remains no more sacrifice for sin". That is what is scary.

maybe true but that hasn’t been determined for certain.

I have proven it repeatedly, but again, this isn't rocket science. Simply take your argument justifying your belief that you can profane the Sabbath, disregard the dietary laws, etc. and apply it to homosexuality. It works every time. Now take whatever arguments you have against homosexuality, and apply them to one's own justification of profaning the Sabbath, disregarding the dietary laws, etc. and again, it works every time.

Take whatever proof texts you please for justifying profaning the Sabbath, disregarding the dietary laws, justifying adultery, etc. and I can easily refute each and every one of them with the text itself.

The problem is always the church's inability to rightly divide the word. Everyone who justifies violating Gods' commandments has an inherent and contradictory belief. Whenever we claim that the scriptures are profitable for doctrine, reproof, etc. we must always add the caveat that they are arbitrary and malleable depending on who we're talking about. If one happens to be born into the Jewish faith and vows to be obedient to God, they must keep God's laws while anyone who didn't make that vow, isn't under any compulsion to keep God's laws at all, and can even sin with impunity because God has a double standard for those who place their faith in Christ's sacrifice. Gotta love God's grace, right?

The most difficultly I have is in understanding what you are saying. One minute I’m thinking you are saying this or that and then you post something like you did above ”A mother Teresa is just as rotten as a Hitler or a Stalin in comparison to God.” and I realize I speculate a lot about what you are saying without fully knowing what you are saying.

Everyone operates under assumptions. Most of the time, people view my posts with blatantly false assumptions, and in most cases there are so many false assumptions, that it can take days or even weeks to sort it all out.

The best assumption would probably be to assume that I am a computer generated bot that has had the bible, the dictionary, and a book on elementary grammar downloaded, and installed.

 

[lforrest]

The argument that Christians are hypocrites for allowing some sins but not others...

Reminds me of the verse that goes: The name of God is blaspemed among the gentiles because of you.

This in no way lessens the individual responsibility to flee sin. But it does make their witness ineffective, when Christians do not practice what they preach.

Among Christians trying to sort out rather to allow homosexuality in their church the question should be is it sin or not. If they can agree that it is sin, then it shouldn't be acceptable.
That other sins may go unaddressed is a separate matter, related to their witness.

 

[shnarkle]

the question should be is it sin or not. If they can agree that it is sin, then it shouldn't be acceptable.

Seems like a great way to allow all sinners into a congregation. All sin can be accepted if the church can't agree on whether it is sin or not. This is what we are seeing in the church today. Once Satan gets his foot in the door, it is only a matter of time before he's able to swing it wide open.

That other sins may go unaddressed is a separate matter, related to their witness.

Put another way, simply ignore the issue altogether. Just pass the basket, and move on, right?

The popular slogan at one denomination is "Come as you are. Leave with a blessing".

 

[Hidden In Him]

My point was:
"What's the difference between a GOOD sinner and a BAD sinner?"
Ans. In comparison to the Righteousness of Christ (as opposed to ours by the Law), there is no such thing as a "good" sinner. We are either a "new creature" in Christ, or we are not! Romans 8:9.

Oh, ok : )

But now, you would then have to establish (through scripture) that those practicing homosexuality are not new creatures in Christ.
What passages would you use?

 

[Hidden In Him]

1Corinthians 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers nor homosexuals , nor nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1Corinthians 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
1Corinthians 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

I think they apply the "customs have changed" argument here, i.e that what was condemned in NT culture is now more accepted...
but I could be wrong. Either way, it's a rather weak argument, because morality has clearly loosened in society towards "fornicators" as well, and seems to be gradually slackening towards virtually everything else.

The argument relegates God's sense of morality to that of culture.

Good passage

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Oh, ok : )

But now, you would then have to establish (through scripture) that those practicing homosexuality are not new creatures in Christ.
What passages would you use?

...then neither are fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals , nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1Corinthians 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners,

as they are of the same lump ...

 

[Waiting on him]

...then neither are fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals , nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1Corinthians 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners,

as they are of the same lump ...

Forgot flesh and blood.
Though all the above falls under that.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

You might ask simply to point out that someone is judging. This seems to be a pervasive technique on this forum. That's why I asked.





Who isn't? Ironically, if you admit you're a hypocrite, by definition, you can't be a hypocrite. If one knowingly sins, there "remains no more sacrifice for sin". That is what is scary.






I have proven it repeatedly, but again, this isn't rocket science. Simply take your argument justifying your belief that you can profane the Sabbath, disregard the dietary laws, etc. and apply it to homosexuality. It works every time. Now take whatever arguments you have against homosexuality, and apply them to one's own justification of profaning the Sabbath, disregarding the dietary laws, etc. and again, it works every time.

Take whatever proof texts you please for justifying profaning the Sabbath, disregarding the dietary laws, justifying adultery, etc. and I can easily refute each and every one of them with the text itself.

The problem is always the church's inability to rightly divide the word. Everyone who justifies violating Gods' commandments has an inherent and contradictory belief. Whenever we claim that the scriptures are profitable for doctrine, reproof, etc. we must always add the caveat that they are arbitrary and malleable depending on who we're talking about. If one happens to be born into the Jewish faith and vows to be obedient to God, they must keep God's laws while anyone who didn't make that vow, isn't under any compulsion to keep God's laws at all, and can even sin with impunity because God has a double standard for those who place their faith in Christ's sacrifice. Gotta love God's grace, right?





Everyone operates under assumptions. Most of the time, people view my posts with blatantly false assumptions, and in most cases there are so many false assumptions, that it can take days or even weeks to sort it all out.

The best assumption would probably be to assume that I am a computer generated bot that has had the bible, the dictionary, and a book on elementary grammar downloaded, and installed.

okay...here is my question what is least in the kingdom? the “you have heard it said” or the “but I say...” . The Pharisees kept the Sabbath but didn’t enter into His Rest and prevented others from entering into His rest?

 

[Hidden In Him]

...then neither are fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals , nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1Corinthians 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners,

as they are of the same lump ...

I meant tying it specifically to verses which mention becoming a new creation in Christ, LoL.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

I meant tying it specifically to verses which mention becoming a new creation in Christ, LoL.

a lump leavened with sin is no different than a homosexual as they are of the same lump with those listed above.
1 Corinthians 5:7-13 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: [8] Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. [9] I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators: [10] Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world. [11] But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. [12] For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? [13] But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

I meant tying it specifically to verses which mention becoming a new creation in Christ, LoL.

just so you know I’m completely uncertain here so just posting what comes to mind for the sake of discussion.

 

[lforrest]

Seems like a great way to allow all sinners into a congregation. All sin can be accepted if the church can't agree on whether it is sin or not. This is what we are seeing in the church today. Once Satan gets his foot in the door, it is only a matter of time before he's able to swing it wide open.



Put another way, simply ignore the issue altogether. Just pass the basket, and move on, right?

The popular slogan at one denomination is "Come as you are. Leave with a blessing".

Nevertheless identifying gay relations as sinful is a necessary step, because the argument that it is not sinful is prevalent and the basis homosexuals use to gain acceptance of their behavior without repentance.

Hipocracy is a separate issue and should not be conflated.

 

[Hidden In Him]

just so you know I’m completely uncertain here so just posting what comes to mind for the sake of discussion.

LoL! Love you sister : )
Thanks for this last part. I haven't done a search yet on the verses specifically mentioning or referencing the new creation, so I don't know if it's actually provable or not myself. Just seeing if he can demonstrate his argument by tying his point directly to another text.

 

[Earburner]

Well put. A mother Teresa is just as rotten as a Hitler or a Stalin in comparison to God. Telling a homosexual they can't be admitted into a church is complete nonsense, and the epitome of hypocrisy.

Correct!
Jesus died for all of us, no matter what our condition is! Therefore, now God is calling everyone to repent towards Him, by coming to His Son FOR HIS FORGIVENESS and the FREE GIFT of His Holy Spirit. There are NO hoops and hurdles to jump over, stumble over, or avoid for the FREE GIFT of HIS MERCY and SECURITY of Eternal Life.
That IS WHAT salvation is- to be SAVED BY HIM, and nothing else!

How we walk with Him after that transaction, is now in His Hands. Prior to that, we didn't even belong to Him! We were "condemned already" for unbelief. John 3:18.
Only He KNOWS how and when to correct each and every one of us, NOW that we have become His children through Jesus!

 

[shnarkle]

okay...here is my question what is least in the kingdom?

There is no such thing as "least in the kingdom". Your reference is to this:

"Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven" Matt. 5:19


The author is using the figure Synoeceiosis, or Cohabitation. The repetition of the same word in the same sentence with an extended meaning.

"Syn'-oe-cei-o'-sis from "sun", together with, and "oikeiosis", dwelling in the same house.

This figure is so called because two words are used, and in the general sense, but with a different and more extended signification. They dwell together as it were in the same house; and yet, while one speaker takes up the word and uses it in the same sense, he yet means a different thing."

The Latins called it Cohabitatio, cohabitation, a dwelling together.

In the former place, the allusion is to the distinction which the Pharisees made between different commandments (think of the Catholic distinction between 'venial' and 'mortal' sins).

There is no such distinction, and therefore, when in the latter place Christ says "he shall be called least," he means that he will not be there at all, for there will be no such distinction there. There is no least in either case.

the “you have heard it said” or the “but I say...” .

Here again, you are probably conflating what the Pharisees taught through the Oral tradition which is necessarily heard rather than what is written in the book of Moses. Note that every time Jesus says anything referring to what is heard, or said, he isn't referring to the Mosaic law at all. Every time he is referring to the Mosaic law, he will explicitly state that fact, e.g. 'Haven't you READ what it says in the book of Moses...etc."

The Pharisees kept the Sabbath but didn’t enter into His Rest and prevented others from entering into His rest?

Christ kept the Sabbath as well. Keeping God's commandments is NOT what allows one to enter into the kingdom. Keeping the commandments is NOT what saves anyone. Just because one keeps all of the commandments doesn't then mean they are saved. Two can be keeping God's commandments;" one will be taken, one will be left."

One keeps the commandments because they are created for good works. They are begotten from above as a new creation in Christ. The other must rely upon their own "will and effort"( Romans 9:16) which will never be enough to save anyone.

This isn't to say that they shouldn't keep God's commandments because all of God's commandments are created for the benefit of all humanity, regardless of whether one is saved or not. They are not meant to save anyone. They are what the saved believer does.

It is only the carnal mind, or the carnal man who can never be under the law because the carnal mind or man is of the flesh while the law is spiritual.(see Romans 8 for more)

 

[shnarkle]

Correct!
Jesus died for all of us, no matter what our condition is! Therefore, now God is calling everyone to repent towards Him, by coming to His Son FOR HIS FORGIVENESS and the FREE GIFT of His Holy Spirit. There are NO hoops and hurdles to jump over, stumble over, or avoid for the FREE GIFT of HIS MERCY and SECURITY of Eternal Life.
That IS WHAT salvation is- to be SAVED BY HIM, and nothing else!

How we walk with Him after that transaction, is now in His Hands. Prior to that, we didn't even belong to Him! We were "condemned already" for unbelief. John 3:18.
Only He KNOWS how and when to correct each and every one of us, NOW that we have become His children through Jesus!

If we're honest, we have to look at the fact that we're not perfect yet, therefore we have no right to tell others to hurry up and get right with God because we're not there yet either. However, this isn't to say that those who do enter into the New Covenant are in any way imperfect. They are perfectly sinless. We know this because this is explicitly how the New Covenant is described.

Christ's sacrifice only covers those who are under the Old Covenant who then enter into the New Covenant, and do not require any further sacrifices. There 'remains no more sacrifice for sin' when one has been given a new heart for the expressed purpose of keeping God's commandments. That is the only reason it is given in the first place.

For those who know only sin, to be given the free offer of a fresh start in, with, and through Christ is a 'no-brainer'. Unlike Adam, we know where our sinful life originated in, and where it's going. Unlike Adam, we know that the alternative to our sinful existence has to be unimaginably, and incomprehensibly better so we run headlong, and leap into it with significantly more zeal than Adam and Eve spent hiding from God.

 

[shnarkle]

Nevertheless identifying gay relations as sinful is a necessary step,

It's a step that cannot be taken when one is living a life of fornication or adultery already. This is the case with the church. The church is not going to repent of its own sin, therefore it must accept homosexuals into her ranks.

because the argument that it is not sinful is prevalent and the basis homosexuals use to gain acceptance of their behavior without repentance.

It's the same basis used to excuse fornication, adultery, etc., etc.

Hipocracy is a separate issue and should not be conflated.

I'm not conflating the two at all. I'm showing how they're related to each other, and why the hypocrite will eventually allow anything and everything until he is able to repent of his own sin. It is the blind leading the blind. Sinners preventing other sinners from joining a church full of sinners is idiotic.

Again, the church has agreed to redefine sin with regards to a number of God's commandments, they will necessarily continue down this path to their own destruction. Justifying their blatant disregard for their own sin can only lead to confusion. This is the case. My arguments are not only based upon the texts themselves, but simple straightforward logic which no one else is using.

To simply say, "the bible says...therefore that's the truth" is nonsense. Hence, the reason so many professing Christians have no other reason to do anything other than simply because of the interpretation they've been taught. They really don't know why they do what they do. They have no justification whatsoever. They have no ability to engage their critical thinking skills, if they even have any left.

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

nice 4 paragraph response but we are talking what the scriptures has to say..your missing the point

And You are giving them licence.

If God gave the Law it was for our own good, because without it you would be dead, such needed the Law to bring them to Jesus.
Jesus never got rid of the Law, not one jot !

Take away modern tec in medical progress and see how modern society will crash, prevention is always better than the cure, but people nowadays are so childish that they claim ok well I just go see the doc and be cured. and here it is nowadays look at all the fools who think ok there will be a cure for AIDS soon, so all is ok and not to mention that the law has been changed that if you give another AIDS it's not a crime any more, because it's not a death sentence as one can live with such for many years now. not to mention freely spread it around at will.

Scriptures condemn all such in fact, it's only modern day dolts that are peddling scriptures in ignorance of the Light.
A father or mother who loves their children does not say, it's ok abuse others, or let other degenerates abuse them. so dad gets a knock on the door and some slob says hi I am here to abuse your daughter. well such a one would be punched in the face directly all through history, but for nowadays all is ok !
Or a School insist on brainwashing all the children with modern day gender freak show lies and depravity that will destroy a whole generation that is so messed up that it will be a total disaster. no one will have any virtue worth talking about.
A social gospel is all that is being peddled in the Churches nowadays and controlled by the Government who is there god. Political Correctness over rules the Church nowadays and not to mention that it's a Slave to such.