How can anyone fall for the errors of Calvinism ?

[Scott Downey]

The unbelievers are unwilling to come to Christ as they are all of them of the flesh and the devil is their father.
You must become of God to hear the words of God and believe the gospel.
John 8
47 He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.”

He who is of God means born again by the Spirit, only they will believe Christ's words.
Those who are not of God, meaning not born of the Spirit, will not hear, will not believe.

More on the unsaved John 5.
Jesus clearly teaches those who do not have HIS WORD abiding inside them, as in born of God, Christ whom God sent, Him they will not believe.
AND the unsaved are unwilling to come to Christ that they may have life.

36 But I have a greater witness than John’s; for the works which the Father has given Me to finish—the very works that I do—bear witness of Me, that the Father has sent Me. 37 And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form.

38 But you do not have His word abiding in you, because whom He sent, Him you do not believe.

39 You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me.

40 But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.

 

[Scott Downey]

So Calvinists make stuff up!
Like the scriptures!
Read this also, something I just made up, yeah like I was around 2000 years ago...

2 Corinthians 4
Therefore, since we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we do not lose heart. 2 But we have renounced the hidden things of shame, not walking in craftiness nor handling the word of God deceitfully, but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God.

3 But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing,

4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them. 5 For we do not preach ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord, and ourselves your bondservants for Jesus’ sake.

6 For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
---------------------------------------------------------
The Gospel is veiled to those who are perishing.

The devil has blinded the minds of all unbelievers, or they will see the light of the glorious gospel of Christ and it will enlighten them to the truth.

God though overrides this darkness and has shone in our hearts, the devil cannot stop God from doing that.
God only saves some people. the rest God gives over to their reprobate mind, reread Romans 1.
God gives over some, and God has mercy on whomever He wishes.
OBVIOUSLY according to the scripture, God does not have mercy on all.
And that is the righteous judgement of God, and not according to YOUR WILL.

Romans 9
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.

 

[Marine0311]

So Calvinists make stuff up!
Like the scriptures!
Read this also, something I just made up, yeah like I was around 2000 years ago...

2 Corinthians 4
Therefore, since we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we do not lose heart. 2 But we have renounced the hidden things of shame, not walking in craftiness nor handling the word of God deceitfully, but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God.

3 But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing,

4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them. 5 For we do not preach ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord, and ourselves your bondservants for Jesus’ sake.

6 For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
---------------------------------------------------------
The Gospel is veiled to those who are perishing.

The devil has blinded the minds of all unbelievers, or they will see the light of the glorious gospel of Christ and it will enlighten them to the truth.

God though overrides this darkness and has shone in our hearts, the devil cannot stop God from doing that.
God only saves some people. the rest God gives over to their reprobate mind, reread Romans 1.
God gives over some, and God has mercy on whomever He wishes.
OBVIOUSLY according to the scripture, God does not have mercy on all.
And that is the righteous judgement of God, and not according to YOUR WILL.

Romans 9
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.

Reread Romans 1 there is a specific reason God gives those who participate in a specific abomination a reprobate mind.

Rom 1:24 - Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
Rom 1:25 - Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
Rom 1:26 - For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
Rom 1:27 - And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman,burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet.
Rom 1:28 - And even as they did not like to retain Godin their knowledge, God gavethem over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

 

[Grailhunter]

You dont understand do you, that people all over the world can freely come of their own initiative, but that they do not do so unless GOD is prodding them towards Christ as the great shepherd.
You also do not acknowledge the unsaved are all of them following the devil and seeking to do the devil's will, reread Ephesians 2.
They are held captive to the devil in their sin and are blinded in their minds by the devil, read 2 Corinthians 4.

AND He is only the Great Shepherd of the sheep, and all of the sheep God gave to Christ, none of them came on their own, they were the 'lost sheep of Christ' whom He came to seek and save. Each of them had wandered away.

Hebrews 2
10 For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. 11 For both He who sanctifies and those who are being sanctified are all of one, for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren, 12 saying:

“I will declare Your name to My brethren;
In the midst of the assembly I will sing praise to You.”

13 And again:

“I will put My trust in Him.”

And again:

“Here am I and the children whom God has given Me.”

Like I said the Calvinist's theology is flawed on the most basic level. In this case, what you are talking about is Judgment Day before creation.

 

[Scott Downey]

Like I said the Calvinist's theology is flawed on the most basic level. In this case, what you are talking about is Judgment Day before creation.

That is a strange doctrine your believing, judgement day before creation.
The other point is you and others are using sophistry or human wisdom and not the scriptures.
Do you even know what the Day of Judgement is all about? I doubt it.
The decision about salvation or no salvation is not determined at the Day of Judgement.
That Day is a Day of condemnation for all unbelivers, if you say otherwise, they you do not belive in the neccesity of beliving in Christ to be saved.

The DEAD are judged by their works, the things written in the books and this is against them. And no flesh will be judged worth of life by observing the law of God.

Besides that unbelivers are guilty of dosbedience to the command of God to all men to believe in the Son, read Acts 17. Even though they were seemingly really nice people.

John 5:24
Life and Judgment Are Through the Son
“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

That judgement Christ speaks of, is the final judgement when all the DEAD stand before God and are judged. Since their is no salvation unless someone is born again, there is no salvation for them.

 

[Scott Downey]

If you believe someone can be saved outside of being Born again by God, and believing in Christ, then you have denied the faith.
John 14:6
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

John 10
7 Then Jesus said to them again, “Most assuredly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. 8 All who ever came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them.

John 3:36
He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

 

[Grailhunter]

That is a strange doctrine your believing, judgement day before creation.

Focus....I was saying you were suggesting Judgment Day before creation.

The other point is you and others are using sophistry or human wisdom and not the scriptures.

I understand the idiocy of...if it makes no sense....that is the qualifying factor that it is of God. A sure way to come up with a weird religion....

Do you even know what the Day of Judgement is all about? I doubt it.

I know what Judgment Day is about, but it does not matter in Calvinism.

The decision about salvation or no salvation is not determined at the Day of Judgement.

Workout your salvation with fear and trembling. Salvation is not an instant in time....it is a journey and Christians will be judged on what they have done both good and bad and judged to Heaven or Hell. What you are talking about is the heresy of Once Saved Always Saved.

That Day is a Day of condemnation for all unbelivers, if you say otherwise, they you do not belive in the neccesity of beliving in Christ to be saved.

Like Christ said, Unbelievers are already condemned.

The DEAD are judged by their works, the things written in the books and this is against them.

Not according to Calvinism....that is already decided. Calvinism is a false belief.

 

[Scott Downey]

I say non Calvanists by attacking calvanists, show they are full of hatred, and they don't hide their contempt.
I have seen it a lot and the title of this thread proves that.
And the thing is they have nothing to back up their views except what they think by human reasoning.
Others have said Calvanists turn God into a monster.

 

[Scott Downey]

Here is a logical deduction about the Day of Judgement.
Christians wont come into this Day of Judgement, as they are spiritually alive, Jesus said they have passed from death into life.
When they die, they all go to be with the LORD in Heaven and will be with Him for all eternity.

Non Christians, unbelievers, are DEAD in their sins, they are not spiritually alive.
When they physically die, they go to Hell.

So what some people are saying. God will ressurect the wicked (He does) and judge them either worthy of eternal life or to go into the Lake of Fire.
but these spiritually DEAD have been in Hell for some time already suffering in fiery torments. There is no way God will then bring them into heaven at the Final Judgement. God does not make mistakes, those in Hell will be raised up, judged worth of Hell, and be cast into the Lake of Fire.

For anyone to say they go to Hell and then are judged and go to Heaven, is pure paganism., and also illogical.



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[Marine0311]

I say non Calvanists by attacking calvanists, show they are full of hatred, and they don't hide their contempt.
I have seen it a lot and the title of this thread proves that.
And the thing is they have nothing to back up their views except what they think by human reasoning.
Others have said Calvanists turn God into a monster.

. I do not hate Calvinist I hate that the Calvinist have changed the gospel that Jesus and the apostles taught.

 

[Scott Downey]

. I do not hate Calvinist I hate that the Calvinist have changed the gospel that Jesus and the apostles taught.

Except they do not do that.
Calvanists rely on scripture as proof.
Some of which I pointed out here. Nothing is made up.

 

[farouk]

What does Calvinism teach that is false?
Please be specific if you are going to tell me that reading the Bible has led me to a false gospel.

@atpollard What is referred to as Calvinism seems to mean many things to many ppl, but what you have done - bring it back to what the Scripture actually says - is a good way to proceed indeed...

 

[farouk]

Exactly. All those who do come to Jesus are those whom the Father has drawn. It looks like our choice and it sure is, but we wouldn't have been able to make it unless God gives us eyes to see and ears to hear.

Hi @dhh712 What you say reminds me of John 6.37:

All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

 

[atpollard]

Calvinism teaches the saved were elected to salvation before God created the heavens and the earth

I presented scripture [Ephesians 1] that said the same thing already, so your axe to grind is with Paul and God rather than ‘Calvinists’.

and those not elected are destined by God’s will and predetermination to eternal hell.

As you claim this works, it is both not Biblical and not-Calvinism. This, too was already addressed and you can read the Westminster Confession of Faith (Reformed) or the London Confession (Baptist) for a more detailed explanation of the official teaching on predestination and the role of God in salvation.

Both contradict scripture and the gospel that Jesus and the apostles taught.

Since you teach a false ‘Calvinism’, refuse correction on your erroneous claims of the teachings of others, and then choose to repeat attacks against claims of belief that have been demonstrated to NOT BE CALVINISM, you must have some other motivation and goal for this false witness.

Clearly you will not listen to the truth of what Calvinists believe (irrespective of whether you agree or disagree with that belief), there is little point in attempting to dissuade you from attacking your delusional parody of Calvinism … Go Don Quixote, attack the windmill, for to you it is a giant.

 

[farouk]

I presented scripture [Ephesians 1] that said the same thing already, so your axe to grind is with Paul and God rather than ‘Calvinists’.


As you claim this works, it is both not Biblical and not-Calvinism. This, too was already addressed and you can read the Westminster Confession of Faith (Reformed) or the London Confession (Baptist) for a more detailed explanation of the official teaching on predestination and the role of God in salvation.


Since you teach a false ‘Calvinism’, refuse correction on your erroneous claims of the teachings of others, and then choose to repeat attacks against claims of belief that have been demonstrated to NOT BE CALVINISM, you must have some other motivation and goal for this false witness.

Clearly you will not listen to the truth of what Calvinists believe (irrespective of whether you agree or disagree with that belief), there is little point in attempting to dissuade you from attacking your delusional parody of Calvinism … Go Don Quixote, attack the windmill, for to you it is a giant.

@atpollard The free offer of the Gospel - to the surprise of many critics - is indeed held by so many ppl who might be referred to as Calvinists - completely compatible with the important Biblical truth of the sovereignty of God.

 

[atpollard]

Like I said the Calvinist's theology is flawed on the most basic level. In this case, what you are talking about is Judgment Day before creation.

Could you be specific?
Which is “Judgement Day”?

• Ephesians 2
• Hebrews 2
• 2 Corinthians 4

(Scott was linking these to some belonging to Jesus [“the Father has given me”] and others blinded to the gospel by the devil.)

As a ‘Particular Baptist’ (there is no Calvinist Church) I would place “Judgement” in your sense of when the guilty were declared guilty at the moment when Adam ate and God cursed (Genesis 3). At that point, we were all GUILTY and began to follow natural fallen desires away from God (see Adam and Eve hiding or Cain for an illustration). The amazing part of the story is that God was unwilling to allow EVERYONE the freedom to follow our hearts to death, damnation and eternal separation, so God set in motion a plan to DRAW (John 6:44) some to the second person of the Godhead (The Son) who God had predetermined was going to be incarnated and walk among the fallen creation as a sinless man to become the perfect High Priest and Sacrifice (Hebrews). This plan of action was decided before creation (Ephesians 1).

 

[Scott Downey]

Calvinism is right here in v14 and 15, purifying their hearts by faith. That would be a God given faith as His gift. Romans 12:3

Acts 15:17, For all those gentiles who are called to belong to Christ, not all gentiles. And God is the one who is doing that, not man, nor man's will nor his mind, this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God lest any should have reason to boast about their salvation being of their doing.

14 Simon has declared how God at the first visited the Gentiles to take out of them a people for His name. 15 And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written:

AND

17 So that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord,
Even all the Gentiles who are called by My name,
Says the Lord who does all these things.’

God knows the heart, that it is deceitful above all things, Jeremiah 17:9, and so God then must give to us a new heart and a new spirit else you cannot believe and be saved.

Ezekiel 36:25-27
25 Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.


Whole section ACTS 15
6 Now the apostles and elders came together to consider this matter. 7 And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them: “Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8 So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, 9 and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. 10 Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? 11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they.”

12 Then all the multitude kept silent and listened to Barnabas and Paul declaring how many miracles and wonders God had worked through them among the Gentiles. 13 And after they had become silent, James answered, saying, “Men and brethren, listen to me: 14 Simon has declared how God at the first visited the Gentiles to take out of them a people for His name. 15 And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written:

16 ‘After this I will return
And will rebuild the tabernacle of David, which has fallen down;
I will rebuild its ruins,
And I will set it up;
17 So that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord,
Even all the Gentiles who are called by My name,
Says the Lord who does all these things.’

Your calling can be thought of as your employment by God to be a saved believer in Christ.
The calling of God is not revocable, it will be established, completed in your life, you cannot fight against God and win.
And for further proof about that calling not being for all, scripture says

1 Corinthians 1
26 For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called. 27 But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty; 28 and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are, 29 that no flesh should glory in His presence. 30 But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God—and righteousness and sanctification and redemption— 31 that, as it is written, “He who glories, let him glory in the Lord.”

The numbers just went crazy, but that is this web site.

AND

1. Romans 1:1
   Paul, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated to the gospel of God
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
2. Romans 1:6
   among whom you also are the called of Jesus Christ;
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
3. Romans 1:7
   To all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

1. 1. Romans 8:28
      And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.
      In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
   2. Romans 8:30
      Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Romans 9:23-25
23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

 

[Scott Downey]

The Final Judgement, is the final judgement of the Great DAY of GOD.
It is the final consummation of the end of this age, and the beginning of the age to come, the age of the resurrection.
Only those worthy to partake of that age will participate and it is the eternal state.

Luke 20
35 But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.

For unbelievers stand already condemned as they have not believed, this final judgement signifies in a formal way for all who watch the transition into the age of the resurrection. It is formally finalized. But the wicked were condemned long ago way before that DAY.
These men denied the LORD, so of course He also denies them before the Father.
Examples.

Jude
3 Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints. 4 For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ.

1. John 3:18
   “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
2. John 3:19
   And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
3. John 5:29
   and come forth— those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

Thankfully Believers will not come under this final DAY of judgement as it is one of wrath, not salvation
What happens at the final judgment? | GotQuestions.org
As God the Son, Jesus Christ will be the judge (John 5:22). All unbelievers will be judged by Christ at the “great white throne,” and they will be punished according to the works they have done. The Bible is very clear that unbelievers are storing up wrath against themselves (Romans 2:5) and that God will “give to each person according to what he has done” (Romans 2:6).

And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. John 3:19

 

[Grailhunter]

As a ‘Particular Baptist’ (there is no Calvinist Church)

That is a good point, Calvinists are infiltrators, right now the Baptist churches are under attack.

Why John Calvin Is Shaking Things Up For Southern Baptists

And referencing Judgment before creation....the Calvinist belief that God determines who will be saved and who will be damned before creation.

Calvinists believe that God picked those whom he will save and bring with him to Heaven before the world was created. They also believe that those people God does not save will go to Hell.
Book III, chapters 21-23, of his Institutes of the Christian Religion
So effectively the Calvinist believe that Judgement Day occurs before creation.

Then you have the other heretical doctrines.
total depravity, unconditional election, limited atonement, irresistibility of grace and final perseverance of the saints.

 

[Scott Downey]

That is a good point, Calvinists are infiltrators, right now the Baptist churches are under attack.

Why John Calvin Is Shaking Things Up For Southern Baptists

And referencing Judgment before creation....the Calvinist belief that God determines who will be saved and who will be damned before creation.

Calvinists believe that God picked those whom he will save and bring with him to Heaven before the world was created. They also believe that those people God does not save will go to Hell.
Book III, chapters 21-23, of his Institutes of the Christian Religion
So effectively the Calvinist believe that Judgement Day occurs before creation.

Then you have the other heretical doctrines.
total depravity, unconditional election, limited atonement, irresistibility of grace and final perseverance of the saints.

The saved were chosen from the beginning to be the saved
2 Thessalonians 2
13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth, 14 to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.

16 Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself, and our God and Father, who has loved us and given us everlasting consolation and good hope by grace, 17 comfort your hearts and establish you in every good word and work.