How could the Messiah be sinless?

[Tong2020]

Here it is in the blue letter bible:

Isaiah 9 :: King James Version (KJV)

So, which is which? I'd go with the link I gave you. Not only because it upholds the truth that the person of the Son is not the person of the Father which I too uphold, but because it perfectly is consistent and in harmony with scriptures. For even while Jesus Christ was on earth and even when He had ascended back to heaven, not one apostle or disciple called to Him nor preached about Him as being the Father. What they had known Jesus Christ to be while He was on earth is that He is the Son, and even then after He had ascended back to heaven. That even though they knew that Jesus Christ is God, they never forgot the distinction of His person from the Father and from the Holy Spirit. Also, there is no scriptures where we find Jesus claiming to be the Father nor we find Jesus teaching that He is the Father. So, I find no reason why we should.

Tong
R0962

 

[justbyfaith]

So, which is which? I'd go with the link I gave you. Not only because it upholds the truth that the person of the Son is not the person of the Father which I too uphold, but because it perfectly is consistent and in harmony with scriptures. For even while Jesus Christ was on earth and even when He had ascended back to heaven, not one apostle or disciple called to Him nor preached about Him as being the Father. What they had known Jesus Christ to be while He was on earth is that He is the Son, and even then after He had ascended back to heaven. That even though they knew that Jesus Christ is God, they never forgot the distinction of His person from the Father and from the Holy Spirit. Also, there is no scriptures where we find Jesus claiming to be the Father nor we find Jesus teaching that He is the Father. So, I find no reason why we should.

Tong
R0962

Your link doesn't translate the word for Father in the Hebrew...but it is there.

btw, Jesus does claim to be the Father in John 14:7-11...and in John 8:24, when He says, "Unless you believe that I am he..." they did not understand that He was speaking to them of the Father (John 8:27).

 

[Tong2020]

Your link doesn't translate the word for Father in the Hebrew...but it is there.

The Hebrew word really is "’ă-ḇî-‘aḏ"(אֲבִיעַ֖ד) not "[URL='https://biblehub.com/hebrew/avi_21.htm']’ă·ḇî" [/URL](אֲבִי). I really don't know the Hebrew language, that's why scriptural context is very important in my study. And of the two links in consideration, I find the one in the link I provided as that which is consistent and in harmony with scriptures.

btw, Jesus does claim to be the Father in John 14:7-11...and in John 8:24, when He says, "Unless you believe that I am he..." they did not understand that He was speaking to them of the Father (John 8:27).

John 14:
7 “If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him.”
8 Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us.”
9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works. 11 Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves.

The matter there is not about the Son claiming to be the Father, but that, seeing and knowing the Son is like seeing and knowing the Father. Listen carefully to what Jesus said in explanation to Phillip, "Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me?.....the Father who dwells in Me". That is what Jesus meant to Philip when He told him, "He who has seen Me has seen the Father". Not that He is the Father.

John 8:24 Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”
25 Then they said to Him, “Who are You?”
And Jesus said to them, “Just what I have been saying to you from the beginning.

What was Jesus been saying to them from the beginning? It's not that He is the Father, but that, He is the Christ, who is the Son of God (not the Father), whom the Father had sent.

John 8:26 I have many things to say and to judge concerning you, but He who sent Me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I heard from Him.”
27 They did not understand that He spoke to them of the Father.

What Jesus said in verse 27 relates to verse 26, and not 25. The "He who sent me" and "...from Him" in verse 26 is whom verse 27 is talking about.

Tong
R0963

 

[mjrhealth]

The Son is the Father (Isaiah 9:6....before you change it twice in order to get a more "conventional" interpretation).

Mat_21:37 But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.

I guess they never will.

Joh_8:54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:

Even HE again says He is not God....

 

[justbyfaith]

The Hebrew word really is "’ă-ḇî-‘aḏ"(אֲבִיעַ֖ד) not "’ă·ḇî" (אֲבִי). I really don't know the Hebrew language, that's why scriptural context is very important in my study. And of the two links in consideration, I find the one in the link I provided as that which is consistent and in harmony with scriptures.



John 14:
7 “If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him.”
8 Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us.”
9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works. 11 Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves.

The matter there is not about the Son claiming to be the Father, but that, seeing and knowing the Son is like seeing and knowing the Father. Listen carefully to what Jesus said in explanation to Phillip, "Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me?.....the Father who dwells in Me". That is what Jesus meant to Philip when He told him, "He who has seen Me has seen the Father". Not that He is the Father.

John 8:24 Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”
25 Then they said to Him, “Who are You?”
And Jesus said to them, “Just what I have been saying to you from the beginning.

What was Jesus been saying to them from the beginning? It's not that He is the Father, but that, He is the Christ, who is the Son of God (not the Father), whom the Father had sent.

John 8:26 I have many things to say and to judge concerning you, but He who sent Me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I heard from Him.”
27 They did not understand that He spoke to them of the Father.

What Jesus said in verse 27 relates to verse 26, and not 25. The "He who sent me" and "...from Him" in verse 26 is whom verse 27 is talking about.

Tong
R0963

What Jesus said in John 8:27 also applies to John 8:24.

In John 14:7-11, it should be compared to John 4:23-24; where it says that the Father is a Spirit. That Jesus is in the Father and the Father in Him means that the Father is the Spirit of Jesus.

And notice that Jesus says, "Have I been with you so long a time and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? He that hath seen me hath seen the Father", whereas previously to that Philip had asked Him to show them the Father, and it would suffice them. Think about what is being said here. Reading the passage through a couple of times might really help you.

It may be, that the only reason why you cannot accept the truth, is that you have not yet been baptized in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth for the remission of sins. When you "get this one done", it is promised that you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. And thus you will be able to confess that Jesus is the Lord; in light of Ephesians 4:5, Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21, and 1 Corinthians 8:6....for that is what is taught by 1 Corinthians 12:3 (kjv).

1Co 12:3, Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

I know that I am both dispersing and concealing knowledge here...for that is my style (see Proverbs 12:23, Proverbs 15:7). You can look up the references...or not.

If you don't, then the pearls are not cast before swine. If you do, then perhaps you are not swine but are rather a sincere seeker of the truth of the Lord.

 

[Cooper]

The "Son is the Father"? That by itself says a clear, plain, and obvious truth. The person of the Son is not the person of the Father.

Isaiah 9:6 Hebrew Text Analysis

Tong
R0959

Millions of people know who Jesus was before he came among us, and that for only 33 years. It is a shame others deny it, but to their misfortune, they will know right enough when he returns in His former glory and condemns the nay-sayers to hell.
.

 

[Tong2020]

What Jesus said in John 8:27 also applies to John 8:24.

In John 14:7-11, it should be compared to John 4:23-24; where it says that the Father is a Spirit. That Jesus is in the Father and the Father in Him means that the Father is the Spirit of Jesus.

And notice that Jesus says, "Have I been with you so long a time and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? He that hath seen me hath seen the Father", whereas previously to that Philip had asked Him to show them the Father, and it would suffice them. Think about what is being said here. Reading the passage through a couple of times might really help you.

I already told you why I believe that the Father is not the Son or that the Son is not the Father. Scriptures clearly presents the two as distinct persons. And I already addressed the scriptures you take as that which says that the Son is the Father, which shows that you misused the passages, at least in my view.

And here you make reference to another passage, that is, John 4:23-24, which by it you want to prove that the "Father in Him" means that the Father is the Spirit of Jesus.

John 4:23 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. 24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.

But then the passage does not say any of that. God is Spirit. That means, the Father is Spirit, the Son is Spirit, the Holy Spirit is Spirit. One Spirit, as God is one.

It may be, that the only reason why you cannot accept the truth, is that you have not yet been baptized in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth for the remission of sins. When you "get this one done", it is promised that you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. And thus you will be able to confess that Jesus is the Lord; in light of Ephesians 4:5, Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21, and 1 Corinthians 8:6....for that is what is taught by 1 Corinthians 12:3 (kjv).

1Co 12:3, Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

I know that I am both dispersing and concealing knowledge here...for that is my style (see Proverbs 12:23, Proverbs 15:7). You can look up the references...or not.

If you don't, then the pearls are not cast before swine. If you do, then perhaps you are not swine but are rather a sincere seeker of the truth of the Lord.

Your guess is wrong. And what you say there is not in any way a refutation of what I said in my post. You seem to claim doing that of a prudent and wise man spoken of in the proverbs, which also is not in any way shape or form, a refutation either.

Tong
R0964

 

[Tong2020]

Millions of people know who Jesus was before he came among us, and that for only 33 years. It is a shame others deny it, but to their misfortune, they will know right enough when he returns in His former glory and condemns the nay-sayers to hell.
.

But saying that does not prove anything nor is truth of it is found in scriptures.

Tong
R0965

 

[mjrhealth]

The Hebrew word really is "’ă-ḇî-‘aḏ"(אֲבִיעַ֖ד) not "’ă·ḇî" (אֲבִי). I really don't know the Hebrew language, that's why scriptural context is very important in my study. And of the two links in consideration, I find the one in the link I provided as that which is consistent and in harmony with scriptures.



John 14:
7 “If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him.”
8 Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us.”
9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works. 11 Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves.

The matter there is not about the Son claiming to be the Father, but that, seeing and knowing the Son is like seeing and knowing the Father. Listen carefully to what Jesus said in explanation to Phillip, "Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me?.....the Father who dwells in Me". That is what Jesus meant to Philip when He told him, "He who has seen Me has seen the Father". Not that He is the Father.

John 8:24 Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”
25 Then they said to Him, “Who are You?”
And Jesus said to them, “Just what I have been saying to you from the beginning.

What was Jesus been saying to them from the beginning? It's not that He is the Father, but that, He is the Christ, who is the Son of God (not the Father), whom the Father had sent.

John 8:26 I have many things to say and to judge concerning you, but He who sent Me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I heard from Him.”
27 They did not understand that He spoke to them of the Father.

What Jesus said in verse 27 relates to verse 26, and not 25. The "He who sent me" and "...from Him" in verse 26 is whom verse 27 is talking about.

Tong
R0963

Thanks, we need some fresh air around here. What they dont realize, is that by making Jesus God, It is no longer Jesus that died on the cross but God, and so Christ is removed from teh Gospel and Christianity becomes a lie , because our salvation is no longer calilng upon Christ and believing in His works.

For God so loved teh world that He gave His only begotten son so that all who believe in HIm will be saved.

How easy it is for the enemy to deceive men.
Make Jesus God and John3:16 is a lie.

 

[Cooper]

But saying that does not prove anything nor is truth found in scriptures.

Tong
R0965

The truth IS there in scripture from beginning to end, and the fallacious arguments I read from others, proves a great deal to me.
.

 

[Tong2020]

Thanks, we need some fresh air around here. What they dont realize, is that by making Jesus God, It is no longer Jesus that died on the cross but God, and so Christ is removed from teh Gospel and Christianity becomes a lie , because our salvation is no longer calilng upon Christ and believing in His works.

For God so loved teh world that He gave His only begotten son so that all who believe in HIm will be saved.

How easy it is for the enemy to deceive men.
Make Jesus God and John3:16 is a lie.

Nobody is making Jesus God here. It is scriptures that tells us about Jesus Christ, that He is the Lord God, whose way John the baptist had prepared. And John 3:16 for certain isn't a lie.

Tong
R0966

 

[justbyfaith]

I already told you why I believe that the Father is not the Son or that the Son is not the Father. Scriptures clearly presents the two as distinct persons.

I have not said that they are not distinct from each other.

But then the passage does not say any of that. God is Spirit. That means, the Father is Spirit, the Son is Spirit, the Holy Spirit is Spirit. One Spirit, as God is one.

Consider this:

There is one Spirit (Ephesians 4:4); the Father (John 4:23-24, Ephesians 4:6), the Son (Colossians 1:27, 1 John 5:12), and the Holy Ghost (John 7:37-39, 2 Timothy 1:14).

There is one Lord (Ephesians 4:5, 1 Corinthians 8:6); the Father (Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21), the Son (1 Corinthians 8:6, 1 Corinthians 12:3), and the Holy Ghost (2 Corinthians 3:17).

There is one God (Ephesians 4:6, 1 Corinthians 8:6); the Father (1 Corinthians 8:6, James 3:9, Romans 15:6, Ephesians 4:6); the Son (Hebrews 1:8-9, John 8:58, John 8:59, John 10:31-33, Exodus 3:14, John 8:24), and the Holy Ghost (Acts of the Apostles 5:3-4, Romans 8:26-27).

There are not nine members in the Trinity.

But if you keep these things in mind when you look at Ephesians 4:4-6, 1 Corinthians 12:4-6, in your normal reading time, as you read these verses in their immediate context, I believe that you may get a revelation.

It is written,

Tit 2:1, But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine:

 

[Tong2020]

I have not said that they are not distinct from each other.

So, say not that the Son is the Father, for that shutters their distinction and you contradict yourself by that. But I understand why you say that. That comes to many Christians who have knowledge of the triune God. I too, some time in the past, came to such thinking. But it's not supposed to be what we think that should prevail, but what scriptures revealed. So then, if you say they are distinct, by all means, speak of them as distinct from each other. For example, it can't be said that the Father was crucified and had resurrected, because you believe that the Son is the Father.

Consider this:

There is one Spirit (Ephesians 4:4); the Father (John 4:23-24, Ephesians 4:6), the Son (Colossians 1:27, 1 John 5:12), and the Holy Ghost (John 7:37-39, 2 Timothy 1:14).

There is one Lord (Ephesians 4:5, 1 Corinthians 8:6); the Father (Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21), the Son (1 Corinthians 8:6, 1 Corinthians 12:3), and the Holy Ghost (2 Corinthians 3:17).

There is one God (Ephesians 4:6, 1 Corinthians 8:6); the Father (1 Corinthians 8:6, James 3:9, Romans 15:6, Ephesians 4:6); the Son (Hebrews 1:8-9, John 8:58, John 8:59, John 10:31-33, Exodus 3:14, John 8:24), and the Holy Ghost (Acts of the Apostles 5:3-4, Romans 8:26-27).

There are not nine members in the Trinity.

But if you keep these things in mind when you look at Ephesians 4:4-6, 1 Corinthians 12:4-6, in your normal reading time, as you read these verses in their immediate context, I believe that you may get a revelation.

It is written,

Tit 2:1, But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine:

The scriptures revealed there is one Spirit, one Lord, one God. The scriptures revealed of the one God, in three distinct persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

Tong
R0969

 

[justbyfaith]

So, say not that the Son is the Father, for that shutters their distinction and you contradict yourself by that. But I understand why you say that. That comes to many Christians who have knowledge of the triune God. I too, some time in the past, came to such thinking. But it's not supposed to be what we think that should prevail, but what scriptures revealed. So then, if you say they are distinct, by all means, speak of them as distinct from each other. For example, it can't be said that the Father was crucified and had resurrected, because you believe that the Son is the Father.

I emphasize the Oneness of the Lord in the Trinity in order to combat the heresy of Tritheism.

In saying that the Son is the Father I am not denying the distinctiveness of the members of the Godhead. You simply have to understand where I am coming from. All three members can be the same, one Spirit, the same, one Lord, and the same, one God (1 Corinthians 12:4-6, Ephesians 4:4-6) and yet be distinct from each other; and you can understand the details.

The scriptures revealed there is one Spirit, one Lord, one God. The scriptures revealed of the one God, in three distinct persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

I do not disagree. But to be more specific, here is may take on what the Trinity is all about:

True Trinity.

 

[Tong2020]

I emphasize the Oneness of the Lord in the Trinity in order to combat the heresy of Tritheism.

In saying that the Son is the Father I am not denying the distinctiveness of the members of the Godhead. You simply have to understand where I am coming from. All three members can be the same, one Spirit, the same, one Lord, and the same, one God (1 Corinthians 12:4-6, Ephesians 4:4-6) and yet be distinct from each other; and you can understand the details.

We can combat the false belief of Tritheism as we do with other false beliefs, that is, by scriptures. Tritheism is easily refuted by scriptural truth that there is only one God, not three.

As I said, I understand where you are coming from, only that, I object to the saying that the Son is the Father which shutters the distinction of the persons of the trinity of God, truth which is all over scriptures. Let's use truth in scriptures to refute falsehoods and not anything else. For anything else beyond the truth in scriptures is in danger of leading to other falsehood and misunderstanding of truth.

Also, if you noticed, I do not refer to the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, being members of the Godhead, for I see that as a danger to being misunderstood as though God have 3 parts, which is a mistake. For scriptures revealed of the Godhead, that God is one and is Spirit. Now the Spirit is invisible and is indivisible. Isn't that not where you are coming from?

Tong
R0970

 

[justbyfaith]

Tritheism is easily refuted by scriptural truth that there is only one God, not three.

Yes; however, there are many who misunderstand the Trinity as saying that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are separate rather than distinct. And I think that you may even have this misconception to a certain degree in the back of your mind So, i would encourage you to read my thread, that I linked to in a post above. While I do not deny the distinctiveness of the members of the Triune Godhead, I also do emphasize their Oneness; and I believe that in the reading you will come to a better understanding on the subject.

For scriptures revealed of the Godhead, that God is one and is Spirit. Now the Spirit is invisible and is indivisible. Isn't that not where you are coming from?

Yes, that is where I am coming from.

 

[Tong2020]

Yes; however, there are many who misunderstand the Trinity as saying that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are separate rather than distinct. And I think that you may even have this misconception to a certain degree in the back of your mind So, i would encourage you to read my thread, that I linked to in a post above. While I do not deny the distinctiveness of the members of the Triune Godhead, I also do emphasize their Oneness; and I believe that in the reading you will come to a better understanding on the subject.

Well, their misunderstanding of the trinity of God, as a being Tritheism does not change the truth of it. And I don't have any such misconception concerning the truth revealed in scriptures about God regarding the persons of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

Tong
R0971

 

[Cooper]

Well, their misunderstanding of the trinity of God, as a being Tritheism does not change the truth of it. And I don't have any such misconception concerning the truth revealed in scriptures about God regarding the persons of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

Tong
R0971

And you think Jesus was just a man raising the dead. Ha!
.

 

[Tong2020]

And you think Jesus was just a man raising the dead. Ha!
.

What do you mean? Where is that coming from?

Tong
R0972

 

[Cooper]

What do you mean? Where is that coming from?

Tong
R0972

You are pulling JBF up for saying Jesus is God, so denying the Biblical truth that Jesus is "God with us."

Well in heaven's name, who do you think the miracle worker, that was raising the dead is?
.