How could the Messiah be sinless?

[Enoch111]

If Jesus of Nazareth is and was God, how is He not the Father? Is God not the Father? (see 1 Corinthians 8:6, Ephesians 4:6, James 3:9 (kjv)). How many Gods do you have? If Jesus was God and yet not the Father, that means that either the Father is not God or that there is more than one God.

I did not expect this MODALISTIC HERETICAL NONSENSE from you! Looks like people are falling for this foolishness.

Here is one example which shows us that Jesus if Nazareth is NOT Father nor the Holy Spirit. Now pay close attention to Scripture and abandon your false doctrine.

And Jesus, [GOD THE SON] when He was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto Him, and He saw the Spirit of God [GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT] descending like a dove, and lighting upon Him:
And lo a voice from heaven, [THE VOICE OF GOD THE FATHER] saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. (Matthew 2:16,17)

 

[justbyfaith]

Because God's words in scriptures is that it is the Word (i.e. the Son) who became flesh, not the Father. Must we add some understanding more than what is revealed in scriptures for our understanding? No.

In your line of thinking, did the Father and the Holy Spirit, who indwells the Son, prayed when Jesus prayed to the Father? Did the Father and the Holy Spirit, who indwells the Son, slept when Jesus slept? Did the Father and the Holy Spirit, who indwells the Son, ate bread and fish, when Jesus ate? Did the Father and the Holy Spirit, who indwells the Son, made themselves of no reputation and took the form of a bondservant? Did the Father and the Holy Spirit, who indwells the Son, humbled themselves and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross, etc. etc....? You may think so according to human reasoning and wisdom, but not according to what scriptures says with regards and respect to the distinction of the persons of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

Tong
R0996

My pov is that Jesus is the Son of God in the hypostatic union; in that He is come in human flesh. So, inasmuch as He only did certain things in His humanity, the Father and the Holy Ghost were not included in what He was doing.

But my point has to do with this: you say that God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost are indivisible as a Spirit-being. Iow, they are one Spirit (Ephesians 4:4).

How did this Spirit descend to become a Man, only as the Word become flesh, when the Word was God; and God also did not become flesh? For we know from the holy scriptures that the Father is God (1 Corinthians 8:6, Ephesians 4:6, James 3:9 (kjv)).

I once heard it quoted this way: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with the Father; and the Word was the Father.

They substituted "the Father" for "God".

I don't see any problem with this algebraically; for in 1 Corinthians 8:6, Ephesians 4:6, and in James 3:9 (kjv), it becomes clear that God is the Father; and I have concluded that this means that if the Son is God He is also the Father. For is this not what is taught in Isaiah 9:6? You have to change the wording of that scripture twice in order to come up with any other conclusion.

Also, there is one Lord in holy scripture (Ephesians 4:5); and clearly the Father is the Lord of heaven and earth (Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21). Yet, no one can say that Jesus is the Lord except by the Holy Ghost (1 Corinthians 12:3 (kjv)); even the Spirit of truth. And Jesus is the Lord (1 Corinthians 8:6).

How then, is He not the Father? If He is a separate Lord from the Father, that is two Lords; and you have a contradiction (see Ephesians 4:5, 1 Corinthians 8:6).

 

[justbyfaith]

I did not expect this MODALISTIC HERETICAL NONSENSE from you! Looks like people are falling for this foolishness.

Here is one example which shows us that Jesus if Nazareth is NOT Father nor the Holy Spirit. Now pay close attention to Scripture and abandon your false doctrine.

And Jesus, [GOD THE SON] when He was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto Him, and He saw the Spirit of God [GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT] descending like a dove, and lighting upon Him:
And lo a voice from heaven, [THE VOICE OF GOD THE FATHER] saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. (Matthew 2:16,17)

You should consider what Jesus said in John 4:23-24 and John 14:7-11; and then look at Luke 23:46 and Ephesians 4:10.

The Spirit of Jesus, according to the first of these passages, is the Father; and He also released His Spirit back to the Father, who inhabiteth eternity (and therefore, when He descended, He did not cease to dwell in eternity; for someone who dwells in eternity is by definition there eternally)...so the Father dwelt side-by-side with the Father in eternity (see John 1:1) as the Holy Ghost; and was also able to descend to any place in time and dwell in the hearts of men. So, He was also able to descend to a point in his own life and descend upon Himself and the Father who inhabits eternity was able to speak from heaven in that instance.

This sufficiently answers your objection.

Let me say also that I do not deny that Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are distinct from each other; there are clear differences between the three. But they are one and the same Spirit, one and the same Lord, and one and the same God (1 Corinthians 12:4-6, Ephesians 4:4-6).

And I am also not preaching modalism.

For there must be an understanding of the relationship between time and eternity for you to come to the knowledge of this truth.

 

[justbyfaith]

Col 2:8, Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
Col 2:9, For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

 

[Cooper]

Because God's words in scriptures is that it is the Word (i.e. the Son) who became flesh, not the Father. Must we add some understanding more than what is revealed in scriptures for our understanding? No.

In your line of thinking, did the Father and the Holy Spirit, who indwells the Son, prayed when Jesus prayed to the Father? Did the Father and the Holy Spirit, who indwells the Son, slept when Jesus slept? Did the Father and the Holy Spirit, who indwells the Son, ate bread and fish, when Jesus ate? Did the Father and the Holy Spirit, who indwells the Son, made themselves of no reputation and took the form of a bondservant? Did the Father and the Holy Spirit, who indwells the Son, humbled themselves and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross, etc. etc....? You may think so according to human reasoning and wisdom, but not according to what scriptures says with regards and respect to the distinction of the persons of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

Tong
R0996

The three legs of a three-legged stool are separate and distinct, but are One stool.
.

 

[Tong2020]

My pov is that Jesus is the Son of God in the hypostatic union; in that He is come in human flesh. So, inasmuch as He only did certain things in His humanity, the Father and the Holy Ghost were not included in what He was doing.

But my point has to do with this: you say that God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost are indivisible as a Spirit-being. Iow, they are one Spirit (Ephesians 4:4).

How did this Spirit descend to become a Man, only as the Word become flesh, when the Word was God; and God also did not become flesh? For we know from the holy scriptures that the Father is God (1 Corinthians 8:6, Ephesians 4:6, James 3:9 (kjv)).

I once heard it quoted this way: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with the Father; and the Word was the Father.

They substituted "the Father" for "God".

I don't see any problem with this algebraically; for in 1 Corinthians 8:6, Ephesians 4:6, and in James 3:9 (kjv), it becomes clear that God is the Father; and I have concluded that this means that if the Son is God He is also the Father. For is this not what is taught in Isaiah 9:6? You have to change the wording of that scripture twice in order to come up with any other conclusion.

Also, there is one Lord in holy scripture (Ephesians 4:5); and clearly the Father is the Lord of heaven and earth (Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21). Yet, no one can say that Jesus is the Lord except by the Holy Ghost (1 Corinthians 12:3 (kjv)); even the Spirit of truth. And Jesus is the Lord (1 Corinthians 8:6).

How then, is He not the Father? If He is a separate Lord from the Father, that is two Lords; and you have a contradiction (see Ephesians 4:5, 1 Corinthians 8:6).

It seems you are confused with your own concept of the triune nature of God. While you do believe that the three persons are distinct from each other, you equally believe that they are the same persons such as that you say that the Son is the Father.

From eternity to eternity, God is the Father, the Word (i.e. the Son), and the Holy Spirit. He is spirit, in contrast to flesh, material, or physical. In time, of the three, the Word (i.e. the Son, not the Father, not the Holy Spirit) became flesh and dwelt among man. Now, if scriptures had spoken of this in that way, why would you speak of it in a different way as though the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit all became flesh, which is an addition and a changing of the revelation in those scriptures? That should not be. Where scriptures speaks of God in a sense rather than in a general sense, such as have distinction between the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, it must be taken that way and not take it as to remove such distinction and take what is said in the general sense. For I believe, as it is obvious, that God meant for us to understand and take those scriptures in that sense than take it in the general sense. To substitute the Father for God therefore is erroneous as that was not the intention of God who is the author of scriptures.

We ought to see and know God in the person of the Father, in the person of the Son, and in the person of the Holy Spirit.

Tong
R0997

 

[Tong2020]

The three legs of a three-legged stool are separate and distinct, but are One stool.
.

Still falls short to illustrate the triune nature of God. God is not composed of parts nor is 1/3 Father and 1/3 Son and 1/3 Holy Spirit. Also, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, are distinct but not separate. God is spirit and is indivisible.

Tong
R0998

 

[justbyfaith]

In time, of the three, the Word (i.e. the Son, not the Father, not the Holy Spirit) became flesh and dwelt among man.

I'm afraid that you have either a 2nd God incarnating, or else 1/3 of God. What happened to Father, Son, and Holy Ghost being indivisible?

 

[justbyfaith]

The Son is the Son in that He is come in the flesh, via the hypostatic union.

Before that He was the Word (the Father, God).

 

[Tong2020]

I'm afraid that you have either a 2nd God incarnating, or else 1/3 of God. What happened to Father, Son, and Holy Ghost being indivisible?

Don't be. There is not a second God nor a 1/3 of God.

It seems you have a problem understanding God being indivisible. The persons of the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit are not parts of God, for God have no parts since God is spirit and is indivisible.

Tong
R0999

 

[Earburner]

No. The ONLY BEGOTTEN Son of God has been in the bosom of the Father for eternity.

No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. (John 1:18

Amen!!

 

[Earburner]

Still falls short to illustrate the triune nature of God. God is not composed of parts nor is 1/3 Father and 1/3 Son and 1/3 Holy Spirit. Also, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, are distinct but not separate. God is spirit and is indivisible.

Tong
R0998

The sacrifice for God the Father is, that He literally did "give" His Son to us for our salvation John 3:16.
However, Jesus was also Spirit before His incarnation, but ever since His Resurrection/Ascension, He is now the God/Man, being both Spirit and Immortal Flesh. God the Father himself remains to be "A spirit" only.

 

[Cooper]

Still falls short to illustrate the triune nature of God. God is not composed of parts nor is 1/3 Father and 1/3 Son and 1/3 Holy Spirit. Also, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, are distinct but not separate. God is spirit and is indivisible.

Tong
R0998

It is impossible to divide a three-legged stool. If you do you have not got a three legged-stool any longer. Sad to say that is what you have done with your own personal God, You have removed the creator and are left with nothing except your own personal fantasy.
.

 

[justbyfaith]

Don't be. There is not a second God nor a 1/3 of God.

It seems you have a problem understanding God being indivisible. The persons of the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit are not parts of God, for God have no parts since God is spirit and is indivisible.

Tong
R0999

You have mentioned that only the Son descended to become a Man. That would make the Son a completely separate entity from the Father and the Holy Ghost. If they did not descend with Him, then God is not indivisible but can be divided into parts. But if God is, in fact, indivisible, then when the Son descended, so did the Father and the Holy Ghost.

 

[justbyfaith]

Who is the Word? We know that the Bible teaches that the Word became flesh and dwelt among us. Who was He before He became flesh?

If you look at Matthew 1:20 and Luke 1:35, you will find that Jesus was conceived of the Holy Ghost. We can determine from this that the Holy Ghost is the seed of the woman; that the Holy Ghost became one with the egg in the womb of the virgin Mary to produce the zygote who would become the Son of God.

So then, Jesus is 100% Holy Ghost and 100% Man. He is the Holy Ghost become a Man.

And therefore His preincarnate form was the Holy Ghost.

And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us...

Then in Luke 23:46, Jesus released His human spirit (which I would think is infinite, since He is God) back to the Father; and this Spirit is the Holy Ghost. This Spirit, that dwelt in Jesus Christ, was also the Father (John 4:23-24, John 14:7-11).

Jesus is the Son in the hypostatic union.

In Isaiah 9:6, you will find that the name of the son that is given shall be called among other things the everlasting Father. To come up with a "more orthodox" interpretation, one has to change the wording twice within that passage. But the interpretation that is truly orthodox is the one that we get from reading it literally and at face value. This interpretation, which will be known and believed by all in due time because of the zeal of the LORD of hosts, is that Jesus is the Father come in human flesh.

There is one God (James 2:19). This one God descended to become a Man; and the Man who came to exist is a distinct individual from the Father who became Him. He is distinct because His personality is affected by His humanity. Whereas the Father, who inhabiteth eternity as an eternal Spirit, remains unaffected by humanity; for He is not human, but God alone. However, Jesus is both God and Man. But the same Spirit that inhabiteth eternity, dwells in Jesus Christ. For God took on human flesh. And He is one God. One and the same Spirit. One and the same Lord. And one and the same God (1 Coritnhians 12:4-6, Ephesians 4:4-6).

 

[Tong2020]

You have mentioned that only the Son descended to become a Man. That would make the Son a completely separate entity from the Father and the Holy Ghost. If they did not descend with Him, then God is not indivisible but can be divided into parts. But if God is, in fact, indivisible, then when the Son descended, so did the Father and the Holy Ghost.

The Son is not a completely separate entity from the Father and the Holy Spirit as you think by that. God is spirit, and thus is indivisible. God who is spirit, revealed Himself to be three distinct persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, in scriptures, and that there is only one God (not three), and that there is no other God besides Him.

Scriptures said:
John 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

Clearly, it is the Word that became flesh.The invisible Word was made visible, and as such, His glory was beheld, and His person revealed, that is, the Son (the only begotten of the Father).

I already told you, the three persons indwell each other in the one being of God. So, the Father and the Holy Spirit indwells the Word. That means, when the Word became flesh, the Father and the Holy Spirit are in Him. However, the persons of the Father and the Holy Spirit did not become flesh, but the Word, that is, the Son. That is according to scriptures, not according to my thinking.

You are obviously appealing to your human wisdom and by it, try and expect to explain the nature of God. But that is like trying to explain the miracles and supernatural wonders written in scriptures, things that human wisdom could not explain but are truth. If you cannot, by your human wisdom, explain how water turned to true wine, how do you expect to explain the nature of God, or perhaps the miracle of the incarnation? All you could ever have, using human wisdom and reasoning, is but a theory. You need to go by Scripture, not your thinking. Believe what has been revealed in scriptures, not go beyond what is revealed, and make not your own conclusion what to believe.

Tong
R1000

 

[Cooper]

The Son is not a completely separate entity from the Father and the Holy Spirit as you think by that. God is spirit, and thus is indivisible. God who is spirit, revealed Himself to be three distinct persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, in scriptures, and that there is only one God (not three), and that there is no other God besides Him.

Scriptures said:
John 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

Clearly, it is the Word that became flesh.The invisible Word was made visible, and as such, His glory was beheld, and His person revealed, that is, the Son (the only begotten of the Father).

I already told you, the three persons indwell each other in the one being of God. So, the Father and the Holy Spirit indwells the Word. That means, when the Word became flesh, the Father and the Holy Spirit are in Him. However, the persons of the Father and the Holy Spirit did not become flesh, but the Word, that is, the Son. That is according to scriptures, not according to my thinking.

You are obviously appealing to your human wisdom and by it, try and expect to explain the nature of God. But that is like trying to explain the miracles and supernatural wonders written in scriptures, things that human wisdom could not explain but are truth. If you cannot, by your human wisdom, explain how water turned to true wine, how do you expect to explain the nature of God, or perhaps the miracle of the incarnation? All you could ever have, using human wisdom and reasoning, is but a theory. You need to go by Scripture, not your thinking. Believe what has been revealed in scriptures, not go beyond what is revealed, and make not your own conclusion what to believe.

Tong
R1000

Seeing as Jesus is God's Word, who is he?

And do not forget God and His Word are indivisible.

And remember God created the heavens and earth by his Word.
.

 

[Tong2020]

Who is the Word? We know that the Bible teaches that the Word became flesh and dwelt among us. Who was He before He became flesh?

Scriptures said:
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God.

John 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

Clearly, it is the Word that became flesh. The invisible Word was made visible, and as such, His glory was beheld, and His person revealed, that is, the Son (the only begotten of the Father). So, the Word was and is the Son. The Word was revealed to be the Son and so the Son was revealed then. Obviously that does not mean that He was the Son only then or is not the Son before that. But that, He was Son even before He incarnated and His person revealed to the world. Clearly too, the Word was God. Now God is eternal. The Word then is obviously the Son from eternity, as is the Father, and as is the Holy Spirit.

Tong
R1001

 

[Tong2020]

If you look at Matthew 1:20 and Luke 1:35, you will find that Jesus was conceived of the Holy Ghost. We can determine from this that the Holy Ghost is the seed of the woman; that the Holy Ghost became one with the egg in the womb of the virgin Mary to produce the zygote who would become the Son of God.

So then, Jesus is 100% Holy Ghost and 100% Man. He is the Holy Ghost become a Man.

That's what your human wisdom tells you. So, that is not coming from scriptures but from you. Scriptures did not explain the miracle of the incarnation. So, I don't go beyond that. How the virgin Mary conceived is a miracle and so is supernatural and thus could not be explained by the natural man, even the most brilliant of all scientists. God created Adam from dust and Eve from out of Adam's rib. You believed that without the satisfaction of an explanation from your human wisdom. So, why can't you seem to believe the incarnation in the same way, and now seek to explain it by your human wisdom? Why can't you not now accept, that how the incarnation was done by God is not an issue and is not in any way what makes it true or false?

And therefore His preincarnate form was the Holy Ghost.

And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us...

His preincarnate form is spirit, invisible, without flesh and blood.

Then in Luke 23:46, Jesus released His human spirit (which I would think is infinite, since He is God) back to the Father; and this Spirit is the Holy Ghost. This Spirit, that dwelt in Jesus Christ, was also the Father (John 4:23-24, John 14:7-11).

Jesus is the Son in the hypostatic union.

In Isaiah 9:6, you will find that the name of the son that is given shall be called among other things the everlasting Father. To come up with a "more orthodox" interpretation, one has to change the wording twice within that passage. But the interpretation that is truly orthodox is the one that we get from reading it literally and at face value. This interpretation, which will be known and believed by all in due time because of the zeal of the LORD of hosts, is that Jesus is the Father come in human flesh.

There is one God (James 2:19). This one God descended to become a Man; and the Man who came to exist is a distinct individual from the Father who became Him. He is distinct because His personality is affected by His humanity. Whereas the Father, who inhabiteth eternity as an eternal Spirit, remains unaffected by humanity; for He is not human, but God alone. However, Jesus is both God and Man. But the same Spirit that inhabiteth eternity, dwells in Jesus Christ. For God took on human flesh. And He is one God. One and the same Spirit. One and the same Lord. And one and the same God (1 Coritnhians 12:4-6, Ephesians 4:4-6).

You have been saying that for the longest, and I have addressed that for the longest as well. I think there is nothing new here that I haven't addressed. Let me just say this again:

You are obviously appealing to your human wisdom and by it, try and expect to explain the nature of God and of Jesus Christ. But that is like trying to explain the miracles and supernatural wonders written in scriptures, things that human wisdom could not explain but are truth. If you cannot, by your human wisdom, explain how water turned to true wine, how do you expect to explain the nature of God and of Jesus Christ? All you could ever have, using human wisdom and reasoning, is but a theory. And most likely than not, error and confusion is where that leads to. You need to go by Scripture, not your thinking. Believe what has been revealed in scriptures, not go beyond what is revealed, and make not, by your human wisdom and reasoning, your own conclusion what to believe.

Tong
R1002

 

[Tong2020]

Seeing as Jesus is God's Word, who is he?

And do not forget God and His Word are indivisible.

And remember God created the heavens and earth by his Word.
.

Please get to your point. Thanks.

Tong
R1003