How do you respond to "Christians are hypocrites"?

[justbyfaith]

Of course you must believe in your heart that God has raised Jesus from the dead at the time that you confess Him as Lord, or the confession isn't valid.

However, we believe unto righteousness (not salvation); and confession is made unto salvation if righteousness is there.

Afterwards the salvation is maintained by faith righteousness.

Now if believing in Jesus is not the door by which we enter into salvation, then

Rom 5:1, Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Rom 5:2, By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

is untrue.

The scripture above teaches us that we do not have access by grace into faith, it is the other way around.

However, you, @Dave L, are so steeped in your Calvinist views that I doubt you will see it or agree with the holy scriptures on this point.

 

[Dave L]

Of course you must believe in your heart that God has raised Jesus from the dead at the time that you confess Him as Lord, or the confession isn't valid.

However, we believe unto righteousness (not salvation); and confession is made unto salvation.

Afterwards the salvation is maintained by faith.

Now if believing in Jesus is not the door by which we enter into salvation, then

Rom 5:1, Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Rom 5:2, By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

is untrue.

The scripture above teaches us that we do not have access by grace into faith, it is the other way around.

However, you, @Dave L, are so steeped in your Calvinist views that I doubt you will see it or agree with the holy scriptures on this point.

I'm not a Calvinist. But I believe the first 3 points are true.

 

[justbyfaith]

I'm not a Calvinist. But I believe the first 3 points are true.

Therefore you are a 3-point Calvinist.

So am I, but I agree with Calvinism on different points than you do.

Total Depravity--check
Unconditional Election--1/2 check (God predestinated us according to foreknowledge of whether we would receive Him or not. God has given us a free will).
Limited Atonement--1/2 check (I believe that it is probable because I do believe in Irresistible Grace; and the alternative with that in mind is Universalism).
Irresistible Grace--1/2 check (1 Corinthians 13:8a, Revelation 19:6). God's love may never fail to give mankind a choice in the matter of his salvation
Perseverance of the Saints--1/2 check (though OSAS is not what I believe in, I do not take it to that extreme, as that is turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness).

So I am in agreement with Total Depravity and 1/2 in agreement with Irresistible Grace, I 1/2 agree with Unconditional Election, I 1/2 agree with Limited Atonement and I 1/2 agree with Perseverance of the Saints (actually I am in full agreement with it when it means that the holiness of the saints will be preserved). That is 3-point Calvinism, if you add everything up.

 

[Marymog]

What scripture?

Sorry, but that is what I am going to say.

Jesus said, you must be born again. The only way to be born again is through hearing accurate, Holy Ghost anointed, preaching. Those who are not born again are not part of the true church, although they may set foot in the building.

At some point you have to educate yourself instead of relying on others to educate you. If you are not aware of those passages from scripture that people use to support their beliefs then please take the time to learn them so that you are better equipped to defend your faith. Do not rely on Marymog to teach you. Teach yourself.

You are right....I am sorry and as I stated that is a circular argument and means nothing.

I believe that the Catholic Church is the congregation where the word of God is uncompromisingly preached and the people are finding real salvation. How do I know it is the CC? Because the Lord has never corrected the CC POV and He has given the CC His Spirit. All Catholics are born again therefore they CAN discern what His decision is.

Since the CC has met all of the criteria you set forth it MUST be The Church with The Truth.

Mary

 

[justbyfaith]

1Ti 2:5, For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

 

[Stranger]

Hi Stranger,

I will try to make my thoughts more clear: As Christians we are all to avoid sin and go make disciples of all nations (preach the faith). If we are preaching the faith and telling others to avoid sin, and then we sin (which we do), then we are hypocrites.

If we call ourselves Christian but don't preach the faith, then we are hypocrites, because we as Christians are supposed to preach the faith.

In both situations the person is being a hypocrite: a person who acts in contradiction to his or her stated beliefs

Mary

Well, Mary, if you are telling others that you are not a sinner because you are a Christian, then yes you are a hypocrite.

I can preach the faith, and still be a sinner. Doesn't make me a hypocrite. Christ came to save sinners.

Quantrill

 

[justbyfaith]

At some point you have to educate yourself instead of relying on others to educate you. If you are not aware of those passages from scripture that people use to support their beliefs then please take the time to learn them so that you are better equipped to defend your faith. Do not rely on Marymog to teach you. Teach yourself.

There are no scriptures that support homosexual practice among Christians...only alternate interpretations of the the verses that condemn these behaviours. In this God allows people to harden their hearts to the truth; and gives people over to shameful practices, just as it is written in His word. They feel justified after working hard to make the scriptures that condemn them fit into their minds in such a way that they do not feel condemned by what condemns them.

For the scripture does not contradict itself...and it says that those who practice such things (as homosexuality) shall not inherit the kingdom of God. But, it says, And such were some of you (1 Corinthians 6:11).

 

[Marymog]

That would be the Lord on the day of judgment. In the meantime He has given us His Spirit, those of us who are born of Him. If you are not born again then you cannot discern it. But if you have His Spirit, then His Spirit in you can discern what His decision is concerning the question you have posted above.

That makes ZERO sense. Another circular argument.

Anyone can claim that they are "discerning it" since they were "born again". As you well know Christianity has different definitions of being "born again". Many men from the CC to the Mormon church have claimed to "have His Spirit" which. Since they all claim to have His Spirit that means they can discern His decision. I asked you who decides which Church the word of God is being uncompromisingly preached and the people are finding real salvation? Your answer? "The Lord" will decide on the day of judgment.

According to your theory the true people of the Church, who HAVE TO be born again (even though there is a disagreement on what it means to be born again), will be guided by the Holy Spirit to the Truth HOWEVER it is impossible for us to know which Church that is OR what that truth is until the day of judgment....... According to your theory somebody out there in this world has the Truth...we just don't know who it is. Why is God hiding the Truth from us?

Mary

 

[Dave L]

Therefore you are a 3-point Calvinist.

So am I, but I agree with Calvinism on different points than you do.

Total Depravity--check
Unconditional Election--1/2 check (God predestinated us according to foreknowledge of whether we would receive Him or not. God has given us a free will).
Limited Atonement--1/2 check (I believe that it is probable because I do believe in Irresistible Grace; and the alternative with that in mind is Universalism).
Irresistible Grace--1/2 check (1 Corinthians 13:8a, Revelation 19:6). God's love may never fail to give mankind a choice in the matter of his salvation
Perseverance of the Saints--1/2 check (though OSAS is not what I believe in, I do not take it to that extreme, as that is turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness).

So I am in agreement with Total Depravity and 1/2 in agreement with Irresistible Grace, I 1/2 agree with Unconditional Election, I 1/2 agree with Limited Atonement and I 1/2 agree with Perseverance of the Saints (actually I am in full agreement with it when it means that the holiness of the saints will be preserved). That is 3-point Calvinism, if you add everything up.

I think if you begin proving limited atonement in your personal studies, points 1 & 2 will become clear. It's all about point 3.

 

[justbyfaith]

Well, Mary, if you are telling others that you are not a sinner because you are a Christian, then yes you are a hypocrite.

I can preach the faith, and still be a sinner. Doesn't make me a hypocrite. Christ came to save sinners.

Quantrill

I am a sinner, in that sin dwells in my mortal flesh...however the Bible teaches that as believers we do not have to sin... and therefore we can come to a place in our Christian walk where we Go and sin no more (John 8:11).

1Jo 3:5, And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
1Jo 3:6, Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
1Jo 3:7, Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1Jo 3:8, He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1Jo 3:9, Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Possibly hyperbole is being used here to indicate that if a man is born again he will experience a changed life; that he has changed his direction from towards sin, death, and hell to being towards righteousness, life, and heaven.

Pro 4:18, But the path of the just is as the shining light, that shineth more and more unto the perfect day.

It has been said that we sin because we are sinners, not that we are sinners because we sin.

In that, I can choose not to sin and really still be a sinner; because it is not sinning that makes me a sinner.

If I sin because I am a sinner, then that does not mean that I necessarily will sin for being a sinner, it just means that I have a sin nature; and if it is alive in me, then yes, the practical outworking of that is that I will sin.

But if I render sin crucified and dead (cf. Romans 6:6, Galatians 5:24, Romans 7:8), then it has no authority to make me commit sin in the practical sense. I can indeed be set free (John 8:31-36), because I am not obligated to the flesh (Romans 8:12-13).

 

[Marymog]

There are no scriptures that support homosexual practice among Christians...only alternate interpretations of the the verses that condemn these behaviours. This God allows people to harden their hearts to the truth; and gives people over to shameful practices, just as it is written in His word. They feel justified after working hard to make the scriptures that condemn them fit into their minds in such a way that they do not feel condemned by what condemns them.

For the scripture does not contradict itself...and it says that those who practice such things (as homosexuality) shall not inherit the kingdom of God. But, it says, And such were some of you (1 Corinthians 6:11).

I never said "homosexual practice" I said Gay marriage. A marriage is a ceremony.

 

[justbyfaith]

I think if you begin proving limited atonement in your personal studies, points 1 & 2 will become clear. It's all about point 3.

The only thing about this is, that the Bible teaches that Jesus died as a ransom for all.

1Ti 2:5, For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
1Ti 2:6, Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

So Limited Atonement really cannot be a reality.

 

[Dave L]

The only thing about this is, that the Bible teaches that Jesus died as a ransom for all.

1Ti 2:5, For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
1Ti 2:6, Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

So Limited Atonement really cannot be a reality.

All = Jews and gentiles. Not just Jews as in the OT.

 

[justbyfaith]

I never said "homosexual practice" I said Gay marriage. A marriage is a ceremony.

If they aren't going to engage in a sexual union, then why involve a ceremony?

Just form and keep a solid friendship with that other person; even be roommates without involving sexual contact.

 

[justbyfaith]

All = Jews and gentiles. Not just Jews as in the OT.

I don't buy it.

 

[Dave L]

I don't buy it.

You need to study more.

 

[justbyfaith]

That makes ZERO sense. Another circular argument.

Anyone can claim that they are "discerning it" since they were "born again". As you well know Christianity has different definitions of being "born again". Many men from the CC to the Mormon church have claimed to "have His Spirit" which. Since they all claim to have His Spirit that means they can discern His decision. I asked you who decides which Church the word of God is being uncompromisingly preached and the people are finding real salvation? Your answer? "The Lord" will decide on the day of judgment.

According to your theory the true people of the Church, who HAVE TO be born again (even though there is a disagreement on what it means to be born again), will be guided by the Holy Spirit to the Truth HOWEVER it is impossible for us to know which Church that is OR what that truth is until the day of judgment....... According to your theory somebody out there in this world has the Truth...we just don't know who it is. Why is God hiding the Truth from us?

Mary

I think that my only answer to you is that you need to receive Jesus Christ as your Lord and Saviour; and cease trusting in your own works to save you but rely wholly and completely on the promise of salvation through what Christ did for you on the Cross.

Then you yourself will have the Holy Spirit and the question you have will no longer be a question.

You will be a member of the true church. You will be able to judge these matters yourself.

1Co 6:1, Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?
1Co 6:2, Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
1Co 6:3, Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

 

[justbyfaith]

You need to study more.

More than the three hours a day that I already do?

I would be swamped with reading.

The reason that I study right now is because I enjoy being in God's word and that He has exhorted me to diligence in reading the quota that I have every day.

If I actually put it on myself to do more than I already do, it might indeed amount to legalism concerning my study time...and that is not the heart of the Lord for me.

 

[justbyfaith]

Why is God hiding the Truth from us?

He wants us to seek Him above all else.

Deu 4:29, But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.

Jer 29:13, And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.

Psa 27:8, When thou saidst, Seek ye my face; my heart said unto thee, Thy face, LORD, will I seek.

 

[Marymog]

Well, Mary, if you are telling others that you are not a sinner because you are a Christian, then yes you are a hypocrite.

I can preach the faith, and still be a sinner. Doesn't make me a hypocrite. Christ came to save sinners.

Quantrill

If you "preach the faith" you are telling others not to sin. You and me and everyone are sinners. Therefor you IN FACT would not be practicing what you preach.

What is the dictionary definition of one who does NOT practice what they preach?


Patient Mary