How Free Will Destroys the Gospel

[CoreIssue]

Codependence is a toughie, my whole fam is Codependent capital C, hard to see the forest there i guess

Experience, not codependence.

Since you have not done what I have done you are not qualified to judge.

Or was that a shot at Dave?

 

[Dave L]

you are something like witness #10 i guess,
and fwiw this truth has already been established i guess too

Dave will trade you an answer for a question though, lol
anytime you are ready! Ha!

you are something like witness #10 i guess,
and fwiw this truth has already been established i guess too

Dave will trade you an answer for a question though, lol
anytime you are ready! Ha!

Consider it answered. Just ask.

 

[Dave L]

I served on three juries, worked in intelligence, served as a councilman, a mayor and a state arbitrator. Not mentioning debating Bible for over 20 years,

To me, his efforts are juvenile.

Doesn't water seek it's own level?

 

[OzSpen]

Revelation 22:17 invites believers, not unbelievers who cannot hear the call.

Dave,

That's your assertion/opinion.

Exegesis of Rev 22:17 (NIV) is not that simple. The verses states: "The Spirit and the bride say, ‘Come!’ And let the one who hears say, ‘Come!’ Let the one who is thirsty come; and let the one who wishes take the free gift of the water of life"

This verse has 2 possible interpretations:

1. The first half of the verse could be a call by Jesus to 'come' and reward Christians. We have the context of Rev 22:12, 20 and that would suit this interpretation.
2. But, the second half of the verse unexpectedly changes focus. The second invitation in 22:17b is spoken to the world, e.g. 'The one who is thirsty'. If one is to take of the 'free gift of the water of life', this is addressed to those who are spiritually thirsty and need God's free gift of spiritual water. That's the imagery.

Therefore, it seems better to me to interpret 22:17a by 22:17b. So the entire verse is addressed to the world.

It will be too late for the world of unbelievers to come to Christ on his return since time for repentance, forgiveness and faith will not be possible then.

So the invitation to unbelievers, while there is time, is: Anyone who is spiritually thirsty must come now as too late, too late will be the cry when Jesus returns.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Well, let's see. Hitler walked in the light he had. As do abortionists, and thugs......

The light only condemns through the law written on the heart.

You refuse to deal with the text of Romans 1 I've raised.

 

[OzSpen]

Aren't we doing the same avoiding my claim that free will changes the gospel into law? Hummmmm?

Dave,

'Hummmmm?' That doesn't cut it. It's a non-answer of your mumblings!!!

Free will makes the Gospel possible for 'whoever believes' (John 3:16). Since 'believes' is in the Greek present tense, it means 'continues to believe'.

Without free will, you and I can't say to unbelievers what John 3:16 proclaims: 'everyone who believes in him' will not perish but have eternal life.

Your refusal to allow free will means you must say to unbelievers, 'everyone who is forced to believe in him' will have eternal life and the rest 'are forced 'to perish' by God.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

I believe that Greek word is (helkuo) which means to drag.

logabe,

Please provide the evidence from Greek grammarians. 'I believe that Greek word is helkuo' is hardly a statement to bank on. 'I believe' is not based on facts.

Do you read and exegete the Greek NT?

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Paul says were were dead in trespasses and sins.

And???

 

[Dave L]

Dave,

'Hummmmm?' That doesn't cut it. It's a non-answer of your mumblings!!!

Free will makes the Gospel possible for 'whoever believes' (John 3:16). Since 'believes' is in the Greek present tense, it means 'continues to believe'.

Without free will, you and I can't say to unbelievers what John 3:16 proclaims: 'everyone who believes in him' will not perish but have eternal life.

Your refusal to allow free will means you must say to unbelievers, 'everyone who is forced to believe in him' will have eternal life and the rest 'are forced 'to perish' by God.

Oz

This shows a misunderstanding of my OP. When we preach (Greek announce) the gospel we give details about Jesus, his death for sin and his resurrection. Followed by "whoever believes has eternal life". It's like saying whoever has blond hair and blue eyes is probably from Northern Europe. Believing is a characteristic of those with eternal life. We then follow it with the call for baptism and repentance.

But when we offer salvation, we turn the gospel into law that people must keep in order to earn salvation. If you do this, God will do that. Quid pro quo, that results in salvation for the self-righteous who of their own goodness comply.

 

[Dave L]

And???

Go ahead, clue me in.....

 

[OzSpen]

All men = Jews and Gentiles alike. Not just Jews as in the old days.

Yep! That means the grace of God has been revealed to all people, bringing/offering salvation to ALL of them.

'For the grace of God has been revealed, bringing salvation to all people' (Titus 2:11 NLT).

 

[Dave L]

Yep! That means the grace of God has been revealed to all people, bringing/offering salvation to ALL of them.

'For the grace of God has been revealed, bringing salvation to all people' (Titus 2:11 NLT).

It's not an offer. It's a proclamation about Christ and eternal life for those who believe in him. Jews and gentiles alike.

 

[bbyrd009]

Experience, not codependence.

Since you have not done what I have done you are not qualified to judge.

Or was that a shot at Dave?

i meant to refer to him, yes, but i hate it to be taken as a shot; i am a recovering codependent, after all

 

[OzSpen]

This shows a misunderstanding of my OP. When we preach (Greek announce) the gospel we give details about Jesus, his death for sin and his resurrection. Followed by "whoever believes has eternal life". It's like saying whoever has blond hair and blue eyes is probably from Northern Europe. Believing is a characteristic of those with eternal life. We then follow it with the call for baptism and repentance.

But when we offer salvation, we turn the gospel into law that people must keep in order to earn salvation. If you do this, God will do that. Quid pro quo, that results in salvation for the self-righteous who of their own goodness comply.

Dave,

Your Gospel offer is not for everyone to give them the opportunity to accept or reject. Your Gospel forces people to believe as it promotes unconditional election.

When you proclaim the Gospel, you need to be honest with people and say: 'This is the Gospel of good news of eternal salvation, but it is NOT available to all people. It is only FOR God's special elect. The rest of you are damned by the will of the loving God'.

What? A loving God who sends the bulk of humanity to damnation for eternity??? That's a redefinition of the meaning of 'love' to mean 'hate'.

Oz

 

[Dave L]

i meant to refer to him, yes, but i hate it to be taken as a shot; i am a recovering codependent, after all

It's OK boys. We all have problems we like to take out on others. That's a part of growing up.

 

[OzSpen]

It's not an offer. It's a proclamation about Christ and eternal life for those who believe in him. Jews and gentiles alike.

So your Gospel provides NO invitation to the unbeliever to be saved?

What's the point of proclamation if a certain number of people are already predestined to heaven but the bulk are predestined to damnation?

Sounds like a god who is a monster to me!!!

 

[Dave L]

Dave,

Your Gospel offer is not for everyone to give them the opportunity to accept or reject. Your Gospel forces people to believe as it promotes unconditional election.

When you proclaim the Gospel, you need to be honest with people and say: 'This is the Gospel of good news of eternal salvation, but it is NOT available to all people. It is only FOR God's special elect. The rest of you are damned by the will of the loving God'.

What? A loving God who sends the bulk of humanity to damnation for eternity??? That's a redefinition of the meaning of 'love' to mean 'hate'.

Oz

Any one who believes can seek baptism and repent. It excludes nobody but unbelievers. But if you promise pie in the sky, and offer it to the self-righteous on condition they meet the requirements, you flood the church with false converts and deceive them even further.

 

[OzSpen]

I see only empty claims against me with no substance.

Dave,

Sadly, that's a lie. I've given you post after post of Scripture and some exegesis to refute your claims.

'Only empty claims' is fake news about what I've posted.

Oz

 

[CoreIssue]

i meant to refer to him, yes, but i hate it to be taken as a shot; i am a recovering codependent, after all

 

[Dave L]

Dave,

Sadly, that's a lie. I've given you post after post of Scripture and some exegesis to refute your claims.

'Only empty claims' is fake news about what I've posted.

Oz

Why am I not convinced?