How Important Truth?

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bbyrd009

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and I guess I should say I don't even fault you, really, we are indoctrinated into the idea of Holy Scripture real early, which we understand to mean incorruptible and inviolate, so it never occurs to us to be our own translators, that seems sacrilegious, right, Lexicons are for scholars or whatever, those that we allow to come between us and the Bible, ha, we even elect them lol.

"Let Moses talk to us, bc if we listen to Him again we will die"
 

bbyrd009

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you wanna pick a single favorite translation and slavishly adhere to it, don't be surprised when you are deemed a homosexual prolly, I bet that's what that is. Bc God will let you worship Easter and pretend you got that from a Holy Bible if you want I guess
 
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brakelite

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We as humans recoil in abhorrence at the very thought of any man torturing another, for any reason. Such dictators/despots/sadists/...we have many names for them...are the lowest of the low, and not even the hardest among us approve...except of course when it is our own lives potentially at risk then waterboarding for information yeah, why not? Go for it. Out of self interest we quell those conscientious objections which we know are morally right, compromise our God-given conscience in order to save the world, and us, from harm. And we still know its wrong. but there is no issue with those whose morality is diametrically the opposite of all we are taught and raised to cherish. Hitler and his cronies and all other evil cruel creatures that crawled upon the earth deserve hell right? Or at least they deserve to be justly punished, and we trust God to do that right?
But then we throw all that right out the window and justify God doing what no human has ever dreamed of nor is capable of doing...torturing some for ever, and deliberately keeping them alive every moment so that they cannot die. This is somehow a holy righteous expression of the love, justice, mercy, of the Creator we know as Jesus. This we attribute to His character...the willingness...no, the deliberate premeditated plan that never brings satisfaction to His sense of justice, and we then improve on that by claiming that at the same time, knowing many of our loved ones are there while we enjoy the pleasures of heaven somehow conclude that they all thoroughly deserve every excruciatingly agonizing moment, and such knowledge of our mothers and sisters and children and brothers and fathers enduring this torment has absolutely no effect on our reasoning powers...our sympathies are completely gone...and our overwhelming joy and happiness remains perfectly untarnished and unaffected.
Such a plan is not born from the mind of any reasonable human being, let alone a holy just righteous God. Such a concept is pure Satanic. And it astonishes me that anyone professing to know their God can blithely attribute such evil and wickedness to the God they claim they know and understand. I used to believe it. Until I was informed of the alternative. Then I realised my abject folly. When I read scripture without the glasses that previous ministers had provided me with, I discovered a God who cannot be measured by our own human perceptions...and when He establishes within us His own Spirit, we can trust that Spirit to accurately reflect God's passion for life...for justice...for righteousness...nd folk, eternal conscious torment does not belong anywhere near such a God. I am ashamed I once accepted it...and all Christianity should repent of so misjudging the character of God and attributing to Him such a mindless and evil concept.
 

Soverign Grace

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My heart agrees with this but my body want redress. I saw a movie recently called 'The Brave One'. It evoked all manner of contradictory emotions one being the satisfaction in forced justice. It's thrust was about a couple who got violently mugged, the lady of which thereafter purchased a firearm.
Circumstances then colluded where pressure to defend herself violently rolled over into vigilante behaviours, you know, swift 'justice'.

I think of Daniel in the lions den or his three friends in the furnace....God is able to quench the power of the flames and shut the lions mouth.
Yes, we are to be witnesses of his character by submitting to his judgements not our own. My own says, get 'em back, my spirit says, God can and will deliver in his ways and in his time. Faith is trusting in God's judgement.
I think I saw that movie. I've been through a number of things that have made me crave "swift justice." I tend to be proactive and it's hard to not take action, and often it's hard to discern when and if you should take action. Some of the wrongs committed by even Christians are shocking in their evil. God must know how it's troubling to not see that "redress." This is a point I struggle with in my walk. I don't know why - I have faith in many other things but I haven't always seen God bring evil people to justice. It's something of a stumbling block.
 

Soverign Grace

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We as humans recoil in abhorrence at the very thought of any man torturing another, for any reason. Such dictators/despots/sadists/...we have many names for them...are the lowest of the low, and not even the hardest among us approve...except of course when it is our own lives potentially at risk then waterboarding for information yeah, why not? Go for it. Out of self interest we quell those conscientious objections which we know are morally right, compromise our God-given conscience in order to save the world, and us, from harm. And we still know its wrong. but there is no issue with those whose morality is diametrically the opposite of all we are taught and raised to cherish. Hitler and his cronies and all other evil cruel creatures that crawled upon the earth deserve hell right? Or at least they deserve to be justly punished, and we trust God to do that right?
But then we throw all that right out the window and justify God doing what no human has ever dreamed of nor is capable of doing...torturing some for ever, and deliberately keeping them alive every moment so that they cannot die. This is somehow a holy righteous expression of the love, justice, mercy, of the Creator we know as Jesus. This we attribute to His character...the willingness...no, the deliberate premeditated plan that never brings satisfaction to His sense of justice, and we then improve on that by claiming that at the same time, knowing many of our loved ones are there while we enjoy the pleasures of heaven somehow conclude that they all thoroughly deserve every excruciatingly agonizing moment, and such knowledge of our mothers and sisters and children and brothers and fathers enduring this torment has absolutely no effect on our reasoning powers...our sympathies are completely gone...and our overwhelming joy and happiness remains perfectly untarnished and unaffected.
Such a plan is not born from the mind of any reasonable human being, let alone a holy just righteous God. Such a concept is pure Satanic. And it astonishes me that anyone professing to know their God can blithely attribute such evil and wickedness to the God they claim they know and understand. I used to believe it. Until I was informed of the alternative. Then I realised my abject folly. When I read scripture without the glasses that previous ministers had provided me with, I discovered a God who cannot be measured by our own human perceptions...and when He establishes within us His own Spirit, we can trust that Spirit to accurately reflect God's passion for life...for justice...for righteousness...nd folk, eternal conscious torment does not belong anywhere near such a God. I am ashamed I once accepted it...and all Christianity should repent of so misjudging the character of God and attributing to Him such a mindless and evil concept.
Are you saying that it's Satan who throws people into hell?

I like the analogy of "glasses" that ministers provided you with.
 
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bbyrd009

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I think I saw that movie. I've been through a number of things that have made me crave "swift justice." I tend to be proactive and it's hard to not take action, and often it's hard to discern when and if you should take action. Some of the wrongs committed by even Christians are shocking in their evil. God must know how it's troubling to not see that "redress." This is a point I struggle with in my walk. I don't know why - I have faith in many other things but I haven't always seen God bring evil people to justice. It's something of a stumbling block.
"Cartman buys an amusement park" is a good reflection for that imo, cartman buys an amusement park - Bing
 

charity

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Nice to meet someone who 'gets it' as far as eternal torment is concerned. Your avatar/photo...is that Auckland? Oh and BTW, my Fathers dad's family are from Neath...just round the corner from Torfaen. Would love to go there one day for visit.
I thought there had to be some Welsh blood in your veins, @brakelite. ;)
 

charity

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End time judgment leads to Hell (the Lake of Fire) which is indeed eternal conscious punishment. The Bible is crystal clear, and the words of Christ regarding this are also crystal clear. Evidently you pick and choose which words of Christ suit you, and which don't.

MARK 9
42 And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.
43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell [GEHENNA], into the fire that never shall be quenched:
44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell [GEHENNA], into the fire that never shall be quenched:
46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:[GEHENNA]
48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

"Gehenna ("hell"), the place of post-resurrection torment (judgment), refers strictly to the everlasting abode of the unredeemed where they experience divine judgment in their individual resurrection-bodies. Each of the unredeemed receives one at the Great White Throne Judgment (Rev 20:11-15), i.e. a body that "matches" their capacity for torment relating to their (unique) judgment."
From HELPS Word-studies in Bible Hub

Since this thread is about THE IMPORTANCE OF TRUTH it should be an incentive for the naysayers to seek the truth about Hell, not believe the lies of Satan through false teachers who reject the doctrine of Hell.

The critical question should be "Why would the Lord Jesus Christ repeat Himself three times, and tell us three times *Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched* if this was not the truth?"
Hello @Enoch111,

The Scriptural truth concerning the correct usage and interpretation of that middle English word, Hell, can only be fully appreciated by investigating the way that each Hebrew and Greek word so translated is used by the Holy Spirit, within it's context. For concordance definitions of the word Hell are influenced by tradition.

The translators chose the word 'Hell' to translate the words, 'sheol', and 'Hades', because it most readily gives the intended meaning, which is, 'to hide away': For the use the Holy Spirit makes of either word is related to the place of the dead, or gravedom.

Gehenna, also translated, 'Hell', is still dealing with the place of the dead, but one of fire, the fires of destruction, following end time judgement. Whereas, Tartaroo, the other word translated in this way, is the place where the 'spirits' or angels are imprisoned, who fell prior to the flood.

In Christ Jesus
Chris
 
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quietthinker

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I think I saw that movie. I've been through a number of things that have made me crave "swift justice." I tend to be proactive and it's hard to not take action, and often it's hard to discern when and if you should take action. Some of the wrongs committed by even Christians are shocking in their evil. God must know how it's troubling to not see that "redress." This is a point I struggle with in my walk. I don't know why - I have faith in many other things but I haven't always seen God bring evil people to justice. It's something of a stumbling block.
Our patience herein is taken out of the dictionary and put into real life not to mention our faith in God's righteous ways for as the scripture says, everything will be brought into judgement at the appointed time. What appears as winners now will certainly be revealed as having had their reward.
 

Phoneman777

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I think we're starting to see that - where it's unsafe for Christians. I am very concerned with what is ahead. I know that most Christians think that it's supposed to get bad as foretold in the Scriptures but are we to lay down our arms? I think we should still act. The media is all owned, and colleges are anti-God. What is you take on Trump? I think Christians have misplaced faith in him. He lies and we know where lies come from. I think he's fulfilling the union of Canada and Guatemala, Honduras etc. right in line with the NWO>
I hold to the Traditional Protestant interprettaion of prophecy: Historicism, which teaches the Antichrist is the papal system in Rome, but most others here adopt the JESUIT version of prophecy which says there's a 2,000 year gap between the 69th and 70th Week of Daniel, that the Antichrist is a single evil dude coming during the "last seven years of trib", etc. Therefore, I also believe that the means by which Protestantism will be overthrown in America is directly tied to papal influence.

You can literally draw a line that separates the abject poverty, out of control crime, and gross immorality that characterizes Catholic countries in contrast to the (once upon a time) moral, prosperous, Christian fundamentalist nations that are Protestant. The massive influx of poor Catholics to America, along with the Secret Society Lucifer worshiping politicians who enable this with the 150B/year wasted on "solving" the problem of illegal immigration, will help to usher in a new Protestant Minority which will be fleeced of its wealth to support lazy, shiftless, criminals from the South who breed like rabbits and possess no family values whatsoever. I gave up on a political solution a long time ago. Only the coming of Jesus will stop those who make war against God and His faithful. They will run to the rocks and mountains and cry out to them to bury them from the face of our Lord, but they will pay for their crimes just the same.
 

Waiting on him

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End time judgment leads to Hell (the Lake of Fire) which is indeed eternal conscious punishment. The Bible is crystal clear, and the words of Christ regarding this are also crystal clear. Evidently you pick and choose which words of Christ suit you, and which don't.

MARK 9
42 And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.
43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell [GEHENNA], into the fire that never shall be quenched:
44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell [GEHENNA], into the fire that never shall be quenched:
46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:[GEHENNA]
48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

"Gehenna ("hell"), the place of post-resurrection torment (judgment), refers strictly to the everlasting abode of the unredeemed where they experience divine judgment in their individual resurrection-bodies. Each of the unredeemed receives one at the Great White Throne Judgment (Rev 20:11-15), i.e. a body that "matches" their capacity for torment relating to their (unique) judgment."
From HELPS Word-studies in Bible Hub

Since this thread is about THE IMPORTANCE OF TRUTH it should be an incentive for the naysayers to seek the truth about Hell, not believe the lies of Satan through false teachers who reject the doctrine of Hell.

The critical question should be "Why would the Lord Jesus Christ repeat Himself three times, and tell us three times *Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched* if this was not the truth?"
How or why would there be a worm in Hell
 

Waiting on him

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We as humans recoil in abhorrence at the very thought of any man torturing another, for any reason. Such dictators/despots/sadists/...we have many names for them...are the lowest of the low, and not even the hardest among us approve...except of course when it is our own lives potentially at risk then waterboarding for information yeah, why not? Go for it. Out of self interest we quell those conscientious objections which we know are morally right, compromise our God-given conscience in order to save the world, and us, from harm. And we still know its wrong. but there is no issue with those whose morality is diametrically the opposite of all we are taught and raised to cherish. Hitler and his cronies and all other evil cruel creatures that crawled upon the earth deserve hell right? Or at least they deserve to be justly punished, and we trust God to do that right?
But then we throw all that right out the window and justify God doing what no human has ever dreamed of nor is capable of doing...torturing some for ever, and deliberately keeping them alive every moment so that they cannot die. This is somehow a holy righteous expression of the love, justice, mercy, of the Creator we know as Jesus. This we attribute to His character...the willingness...no, the deliberate premeditated plan that never brings satisfaction to His sense of justice, and we then improve on that by claiming that at the same time, knowing many of our loved ones are there while we enjoy the pleasures of heaven somehow conclude that they all thoroughly deserve every excruciatingly agonizing moment, and such knowledge of our mothers and sisters and children and brothers and fathers enduring this torment has absolutely no effect on our reasoning powers...our sympathies are completely gone...and our overwhelming joy and happiness remains perfectly untarnished and unaffected.
Such a plan is not born from the mind of any reasonable human being, let alone a holy just righteous God. Such a concept is pure Satanic. And it astonishes me that anyone professing to know their God can blithely attribute such evil and wickedness to the God they claim they know and understand. I used to believe it. Until I was informed of the alternative. Then I realised my abject folly. When I read scripture without the glasses that previous ministers had provided me with, I discovered a God who cannot be measured by our own human perceptions...and when He establishes within us His own Spirit, we can trust that Spirit to accurately reflect God's passion for life...for justice...for righteousness...nd folk, eternal conscious torment does not belong anywhere near such a God. I am ashamed I once accepted it...and all Christianity should repent of so misjudging the character of God and attributing to Him such a mindless and evil concept.
I really like this!!
 
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brakelite

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Are you saying that it's Satan who throws people into hell?
No, I am saying that hell is simply the grave. All inferences that it is a place of fire and brimstone comes from first, Greek philosophy, then picked up by the Catholic church as she was plunging headlong into apostasy. She picked up a few other heresies along the way which Protestants seem reluctant to give up...like I said, hell is just the grave. No-one is now currently burning, anywhere. And only those in heaven are those who have been specially resurrected such as Moses' along with Enoch and Elijah. There are some others who were raised at the time of Jesus resurrection...His firstfruits...but everyone else are still in the grave waiting their resurrection, either of the righteous, or the wicked. There is no fire that destroys anyone until after the conclusion of the 1000 years, when fire destroys everything on the planet in preparation for its recreation.
Whereas, Tartaroo, the other word translated in this way, is the place where the 'spirits' or angels are imprisoned, who fell prior to the flood.
I think this also suffers from philosophical influences from Greece. The place the fallen angels were 'bound' to was the earth. There are fallen angels all around us...I have seen them on occasion. Felt their presence more than once. They are not bound up in a prison somewhere unable to escape...Jesus met many of them...knew who they were, and they Him...and they knew what is coming to them in the end, pleading with Jesus, "not yet". But their time, and of wicked humanity, is surely coming, and it will come all at once, of varying degrees of intensity as befitting the crimes committed. Those people who knew not Christ, but lived but a short time in sin and rebellion will suffer the least (with few stripes) before they are destroyed, the devil and his angels, the demons, will suffer the longest, but eventually, they also will be destroyed. No-one is immortal...not even angels.
 
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farouk

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I think I saw that movie. I've been through a number of things that have made me crave "swift justice." I tend to be proactive and it's hard to not take action, and often it's hard to discern when and if you should take action. Some of the wrongs committed by even Christians are shocking in their evil. God must know how it's troubling to not see that "redress." This is a point I struggle with in my walk. I don't know why - I have faith in many other things but I haven't always seen God bring evil people to justice. It's something of a stumbling block.
I think the point is that for the church God will vindicate His cause in the Gospel and it's this that is the believer's chief aspiration.

Some believers think that the law is the rule of the believer's life, but as a dispensationalist I would say rather that it's the Gospel that is the rule; it's why we are here.