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Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
Uh, no...
"2By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you." 1 Corinthians 15:2
The verbs are in the present tense. Everybody who is presently holding fast to the gospel message, believing, is presently saved.
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
That is one thing i have noticed that all men who are contrary to the truth in any denomation
or atheist or whateverist do . THEY always ACCUSE YOU of what THEY ARE GUILTY OF themselves .
They cannot see . We must point the peoples to CHRIST and to ensure that they follow HIM
they need to learn the BIBLCAL ONE WELL . As well as all sound doctrine which was written for our learning .
Too many sit under men who have allured them by the means of the carnal nature and led them into
an idea that they are safe and fine and yet grave danger is what they are in .
Tis why i remind so often , LEARN that bible , ENSURE ITS that JESUS YE DO FOLLOW AND LOVE
for no other gospel and no other jesus is gonna save ya . ONLY THE TRUE CHRIST JESUS can save a soul .
And a true conversion is seen for a lamb loves HIS LORD above all and then His neighbor as himself .
AND ya cant seperate what one does , what one obeys , from love . WHAT WE LOVE , WHO WE LOVE , WHO WE OBEY
is whose we are . BUT MEN have loved darkness and thus it too is seen by their disobediance , NON LOVE , FOR CHRIST
AS a sinner i obeyed and loved my flesh , my sin , but then i loved darkness ,
BUT when GOD by grace drew me to CHRIST , HE HAD PUT HIS LOVE WITHIN MY HEART . A NEW MAN
WHO LOVED NOT the old darkness , but rather the TRUTH . PRAISE GOD FOR HIS WONDEROUS GRACE and MERCY
upon such a wicked vile one as myself . TRULY shows us that GOD desires not the death of the wicked
CAUSE I was worse than most , YET GRACE APPEARED . AND now by that same grace , by that same SPIRIT
i remind all and share that grace unto all . ONLY MANY WILL NOT . Desiring none to perish , YET MANY WILL
for they will not come to the saving knowlege of CHRIST but chose and have chosen another image of said CHRIST
one which serves the old man , the flesh and yet promises them eternal life . NO LAMB WILL HEED that voice .
THEY heed the voice of the great shepard . AND THEY LOVE and embrace HIS teachings and all biblical sound doctrine reminders .
AND THEY look out for one another and will warn ,rebuke , exhort and instruct . THEY will keep the original pattern
which was given them of CHRIST and later the apostels . FOR a lamb loveth truth and knows
that all things written are for the good of their soul to the hearer and the doer of said words .
So when they had faith in Christ........as you said they had it..........That does not mean they are born again..
Well, thats not true.
See, God does not Lie, and He said that if you give Him your faith, He will save you.
You Say something that contradicts this.... you say that its continuing to Have Faith, that keeps you saved.
But its actually the fact that when God saved you, when you gave Him your faith, ONCE, you were born again, ONCE.
There is your Salvation.
Your NT says that you become a "new Creation"...........and you say, "if you keep faith, you stay saved".
Jesus says, you shall never Perish once you have BELIEVED......ONCE.
You say that this isnt true.
No, i said you didnt understand your verse....... that boasting is excluded., because Faith, has no works, no self effort, no enduring to the end, no holding unto anything.......as when you are trying not to lose your salvation, as you are doing, then you are not trusting in Christ to keep you saved.
The reason its impossible for you to state on this forum, that you can't lose your salvation, is because you are not trusting in Christ to keep you saved.
You are trusting in..>"holding onto your faith".....to keep yourself saved.
That's simply Legalism, that tries to sound spiritual.
Its actually pretending to have faith in Christ, that doesn't' really exist.
See real faith in Christ, TRUSTS that Christ will get you to heaven.
Having FAITH ins FAITH, as you do, is not the same at all.
Ferris Bueller..
You teach that Jesus does not keep you saved after you are a born again new Creation in Christ.
That's the devil's lie.
God keeps you saved, after you become a Son of God, as How can you not remain saved, when God is in you?
You dont believe this for at least 15 yrs.
You apparently have been taught the doctrine of devils that teaches that becoming "one with God" "in Christ", as a born again Spirit, can be changed because you dont think the way they did on that day when God recreated the person's Spirit to exist in HIM.
You believe that you can be "un-Born again", and that is truly the devil's lie to teach it, as you do....what now nearly 20 years?
You are an "unbeliever" till you are born again.
Being born again is proof you have eternal life and exist as "one with God".
You've become a Son of God, exiting IN GOD, with "Christ In you the hope of Glory".
So, the BELIEVING< has been accepted by God, "faith is counted as righteousness".... and the New Creation in Christ that has become the believer, will never change, no matter how they THINK later on.
When God accepts your faith ONE TIME, you are born again ONE TIME, and that does not change later, if you have some crisis of faith that might last 2 weeks, 2 yrs, or 2 hrs.
One thing you need to realize, Ferris Bueller, is that your mind is not born again......only your spirit is born again.
So, its always possible for your mind to have its issues, after you are born again, but your born again spirit, is secure, as a SON OF GOD, for as long as God, exits.
Philippians 1:6
I probably should Thread these verses for the benefit of those who are not familiar with them.
Maybe.
First of all, "if you have believed in VAIN"........is not a person who was saved , then lost again.
This is John talking about the "sower and the seed" and those who seemed to have been converted but really were not.
So, to hold firmly, is that person who hears the world, and it has real root and they become born again, vs, the people that dont really believe..yet for a while they behave like a disciple of Christ.
Next..... ""let what you have heard remain in you, and you shall remain in the Son and in the Father".
Ok,
What you didnt do, was read more of this chapter, and instead what you probably did, was just cut and paste some online heretics verse, that he is using to try to deceive people about their salvation, as your post to me.
So, there is a context for what John is telling these believers.... and its this verse..
See that?
That is John talking about deceivers who try to cause people to fall from Grace, and into Works.
That would be you that John is talking about , Ferris Bueller.
Thats what you are doing on my Thread.
So, To understand all this by comparing scripture with scripture, you have to read Paul's letter to the Galatians.
As He describes the Seducers, who "bewitch" real believers with their LEGALISM that causes them to Fall from Grace.
That is your ministry here that John and Paul are describing.
Galatians 1:8, is written to you, Ferris Bueller.
What you wrote is typical of a deceiver.
You post some truth and then you post what isn't, in the same sentence.
Its true that You are saved by God's Grace.
Its true that God's Grace, imparts righteousness, based on the Blood of Jesus.
What isn't true is that God requires you to do something ELSE, or he will take it all away as you deceive to teach.
You are teaching the same deception for the 1.5 yrs im here on this forum.
You are teaching that "God and Christ and the Holy Spirit will leave you, if you dont hold unto your faith".
You are teaching that you can be "un-born again" if you dont hold unto your faith.
You are teaching that FAITH, and not GOD,.... Keeps you saved.
You are deceiving people here, who will be deceived, if possible.
So, your Legalism, is Galatians 1:8
To hold firmly to the word......is to have not believed in vain.
This means, that your faith you gave to God was real.....It is not the "and the word fell on stoney ground"...type of emotional experience.
Its not a "campfire conversion", in other words....
If its that type of "faith"...., then you have believed in vain., there is no ROOT.
If it was real, then God accepted it, and "faith is accepted as Righteousness', ONE TIME....and you are born again....ONE TIME.
You can never stop being Born again.
AceWestfall08
Active Member
True faith sticks with you. Throughout your whole life. It is tested.
Storytime....a few years ago, i was tripping out mentally due to Schizophrenic issues. I ended up going to jail and when I got I was forced to move.
I ended up moving in with my schizophrenic mother and a month later i was kicked out of there by her landlord.
I checked myself into a mental hospital....having no support from anybody, or a license or a vehicle in a small town.
My faith kept my demeanor cheery on the outside, although I was terrified. I remember thinking and crying out to God for a solution. I had nowhere to go, nobody to help me. I was flat broke and nowhere to turn. My thoughts the prior months while I was in schizo trip was focused on God, but now was the big test for me.
Well a social worker ended up telling me about a homeless shelter and helped me get my ID so I could work. I started working at McDonalds and I am still working there. This is 2 1/2 years ago. While I was at the homeless shelter working and saving up money, about 2 months staying there. A random guy shows up at the homeless shelter and offers people a room. Being unsocial, i was reluctant to accept, but after some pushing from other homeless people there telling the dude I would be a good fit, because i was holding a job. I ended up renting a room of him. Especially because it was within walking distance of where I worked.
The guy in particular turned out not to be a nice guy at all, and has had problems with the law. But God gave me an open door in the form of a homeless shelter and then a room to rent. Guiding me from place to place. I ended up renting that room for over a year. I wasn't happy with the company that I was keeping, but I was grateful to have somewhere to stay. When it started to become unbearable for me and my mental health started to slip, another opportunity came up in the form of my co-workers offering me a place. I've been here for a couple months now, and I am much happier. Especially since these guy Im living with, we all work together. All 4 of us.
I endured hardships and have felt helpless, but God was always in my thoughts during my dark times. And when you endure, he will bring you through if you just keep holding onto him in whatever way you can. The faith and gratitude that comes from it, is well....hard to put in words.
Faith changes a person. It makes a room in their heart and doesn't go away. It stays there. Many people can say they believe, or got had an emotional event that makes them temporarily believe.
In my experience, to actually experience fruit of the gift of Faith, one must do the required work to care for the seed that was planted.
Storytime....a few years ago, i was tripping out mentally due to Schizophrenic issues. I ended up going to jail and when I got I was forced to move.
I ended up moving in with my schizophrenic mother and a month later i was kicked out of there by her landlord.
I checked myself into a mental hospital....having no support from anybody, or a license or a vehicle in a small town.
My faith kept my demeanor cheery on the outside, although I was terrified. I remember thinking and crying out to God for a solution. I had nowhere to go, nobody to help me. I was flat broke and nowhere to turn. My thoughts the prior months while I was in schizo trip was focused on God, but now was the big test for me.
Well a social worker ended up telling me about a homeless shelter and helped me get my ID so I could work. I started working at McDonalds and I am still working there. This is 2 1/2 years ago. While I was at the homeless shelter working and saving up money, about 2 months staying there. A random guy shows up at the homeless shelter and offers people a room. Being unsocial, i was reluctant to accept, but after some pushing from other homeless people there telling the dude I would be a good fit, because i was holding a job. I ended up renting a room of him. Especially because it was within walking distance of where I worked.
The guy in particular turned out not to be a nice guy at all, and has had problems with the law. But God gave me an open door in the form of a homeless shelter and then a room to rent. Guiding me from place to place. I ended up renting that room for over a year. I wasn't happy with the company that I was keeping, but I was grateful to have somewhere to stay. When it started to become unbearable for me and my mental health started to slip, another opportunity came up in the form of my co-workers offering me a place. I've been here for a couple months now, and I am much happier. Especially since these guy Im living with, we all work together. All 4 of us.
I endured hardships and have felt helpless, but God was always in my thoughts during my dark times. And when you endure, he will bring you through if you just keep holding onto him in whatever way you can. The faith and gratitude that comes from it, is well....hard to put in words.
Faith changes a person. It makes a room in their heart and doesn't go away. It stays there. Many people can say they believe, or got had an emotional event that makes them temporarily believe.
In my experience, to actually experience fruit of the gift of Faith, one must do the required work to care for the seed that was planted.
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
This is funny.
Paul gives the reason for them potentially believing in vain and it has nothing to do with whether or not they really believed what he told them. The potential vanity of their faith is not because they didn't really believe. The potential vanity of their faith is if Christ didn't really rise from the dead - vs.14 & 17. And as far as whether or not they were really saved at his preaching Paul states that they did indeed believe and were saved at the preaching of the gospel. But you will think of a way to ignore that...
"1Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, and in which you stand firm. 2By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain." 1 Corinthians 15:1-2
You can't make the plain words of Paul go away that say you are saved IF you hold firmly to the word (you say you do not have to hold firmly to be saved). I don't care about whether or not it's possible for a real believer to stop believing. That's a meaningless argument (you probably don't even know that the original OSAS argument says you must continue to believe). The important point of what he is saying is you must be a believing person to be a saved person. Your Freegrace junk doctrine says that is not true. See, your main problem is you simply do not know the scriptures. And you don't know them because you only know and talk about the scriptures that your Freegrace teachers know and talk about.
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
You are completely ignorant of the passage. IN CONTEXT to hold firmly to the word that Paul preached to them means to hold firmly to the gospel of a risen savior. To not believe in a risen savior, or if Christ really hasn't been raised from dead, is a vain belief. To believe that Christ is not risen is to believe in vain. All you have to do is read the passage and this is all explained right there. I don't where you're getting this stuff about them not really believing. The passage says the exact opposite, and plainly explains what is potentially vain about their believing.
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
I don't care about the OSAS argument, for or against. It's a meaningless contention. Sometimes interesting, but meaningless and impractical. What matters, what counts is that you are presently believing. For Paul plainly says that you are presently saved if you are presently believing. That's what we are to seek to be sure we are doing. This junk about not believing and somehow being saved in that state of rejecting Christ is pure heresy. I do consider it a doctrine of devils. It's so outrageous, yet so widely embraced that I have to conclude that it is energized by lying spirits at work in the world. A clear minded, level headed person, uninfluenced by dark powers would instantly reject such a ridiculous, ear tickling doctrine. What a joke - unbelievers who are saved.
Ferria Bueller....
I'll give you something to figure out.
Its this...
If you are born again, =You.....then you are "seated in heavenly places, in Christ".. right now, and that is not a symbolic verse.
That is to be "ONE WITH GOD", as a New Creation "In Christ".
Now, if you lost your faith, in the next 5 seconds....you'll still be ""seated in Heavenly places."" "In Christ"
Why is that?
Why is that?
Now Try not to let that rattle your "faith is my savior as long as i keep believing" cage.
Now, let me show you what happens to a person when they don't "stand firm".. regarding "what they have BELIEVED"...and PAUL'S context is being born again.
Paul says..>"""Who has bewitched you, that you NO LONGER Believe the TRUTH""
See that?
Thats a Believer BORN AGAIN...., who has no faith, or broken faith, and it really IS the same thing, as if you believe wrong, your faith is gone.
This is Paul talking to the born again, in Galatians.
He tells them that the are "in the Flesh," "Fallen from Grace".
Do you know what he DOES NOT tell them? He does not tell them that they are going to hell because their faith is gone.
However You, Ferris Bueller will tell them that because you have the idea that FAITH is your Savior, and that is why you believe not in CHRIST to keep you saved,... as you surely do NOT>.... but you believe in YOURSELF, to try to stay saved, by "as long as i dont lose my Faith".
You are certainly supposed to Do what Jude says..>"contend for the real faith", and as Paul says.>>"test yourself to see that you are in the Faith".
= This is Faith in Christ, not faith in Faith.
You failed the faith test, because you are ignorant of the Gospel, and the Grace of God.
You are anything but that clear minded person who is not under the influence of doctrines of demons.
Believe it.
And, Im not posting anything about your obsession with OSAS, unless you bring it up.
See....You have that Obsession with that idea, not me. You bring it up, not me.
You talk about it in your sleep, probably, but, i dont talk about it, unless someone asks me about it, or posts as you do.
I can define it for you, so that you'll have the correct understanding.
Its this..
'Jesus who saves you, keeps you saved"
"The Blood of Jesus that God used to redeem you, always keeps you redeemed"
"I give unto you eternal life and you shall never perish.... Jesus said"
Or, just go here.
Philippians 1:6
no the church is an extension of Christ and has authority from him to teach all nations Matt 28:19
Christ and his church are inseparable!
Jesus Christ extends his mission, power, and authority to His church of His apostles!
Even His judging!
Matt 19:28
His teaching authority!
Matt 28:19 and Jn 20:21
His power to forgive sins!
Jn 20:23
His being the light of the world!
Matt 5:14
His ministry of reconciliation!
2 cor 5:18
His authority in governing the church and administering the kingdom!
Matt 16:18-19 & 18:18 Jn 21:17
Lk 22:29
Apart from me you can do nothing. Jn 15:5
So the church is subject to Christ!
Eph 5:24
Christ shares His glory! 2 thes 1:10 rev 12:1
Jesus Christ continues HIS ministry in His new covenant church thru Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Matt 18:17 Acts 1:17 acts 8:31 & 35 acts 9:4 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 15:5 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20 acts 2:42 1 Tim 3:15
eternal life yes!
Saved no!
eternal life is the life of God!
And the life of God in us is grace!
so yes we have grace or eternal life but not salvation
Romans 13:11
And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.
Redemption, Justification, Sanctification, and Salvation!
Redemption: 100 percent the work of God, thru the life, death, resurrection, and ascension of Jesus Christ! All mankind are redeemed in Christ! Eph 2
Galatians 2:16 3:13
Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law...
Christ alone accomplished the redemption of mankind apart from any works on our part!
(Redemption is not Salvation)
Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
Justification: our acceptance of redemption thru faith and baptism! Become a disciple and member of Christ and His Church! Jn 3:5 acts 2:38 Mk 16:16 He who believes and is baptized shall be saved. 1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Sanctification: the life of grace in the holy sacrifice of the mass and sacraments, prayer, virture, and good works, the just living by faith, and faith working thru love! Phil 1:29 called to suffer with Christ.
All done in Christ thru His grace! Jn 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
Salvation: a christian in the state if grace at the moment of death we enter into the salvation of the Lord! Mt 24:44-47 faithful servant! Jn 15:1-5 abide in me. Mt 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Heb 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
Heb 6:11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:
Heb 4:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
Rom 13:11 ...for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.
Suffering required for glorification with Christ!
Romans 8:17
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
2 Timothy 2:12
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
Justification and salvation are not the same rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
