If you think Mary remained a virgin till she died, then bet on it

[Eternally Grateful]

You don't follow Scripture. I know this already.

Sooooo your men have taught you that when you do what Jesus told you to do ("do this in remembrance of me")...you are mocking God? Just because you don't understand how Jesus can give us his flesh and blood on a daily (or as you say weekly) basis, doesn't mean he can't do it. Oh ye' of little faith!!!! Soooo what is the "daily bread" that we are praying for in The Lord's Prayer?

I have studied John 6 and I accept what Jesus said in it. I accept the writings from the earliest Christians 2,000 years ago on this matter. I accept our 2,000-year Christian history. You and your ilk reject it. You accept the writings from men around 500 years ago. When Paul asked, "The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?" Us Christians say YES Paul, it is. Just like Jesus said at The Last Supper, it IS his body. You and your men reject Jesus and Paul. I don't.

Keeping it real with Scripture and Christian history instead of opinions...Mary

once again, I do not listen to men. Stop your arrogant chants of this lie

If you understood John 6 you would have no problem going over it with me, But every time I ask you to do it, this is your answer.

face it, Your afraid to discuss it with me, If you were not you would do it.

Its ok.. Your not the only one, I was actually like this once many years ago..

If you studied john 6, you would not believe as you do, you could not.. Thats why you wont discuss it with me, because you either know I am true, or you have been told by your church never to get into a discussion with someone like this, You could put yourself in danger (I am not just saying this, I have heard first hand people being told not to do this. that they should trust their own church leaders. and not try to look for themselves)

Thats how the reformation happened. People were free to open the word and actually study what it says, And they found out that alot of what they were told did nto line up with the word of God.

It is still happening today. I have a cell group mens meeting of 6 men we started a few months ago. All but one are former Catholics. They did nto leave the church because I said something to them (I did not know them then)

They left because people they knew told them to pick up a bible and read. and study hard. and if what they read lines up with catholic doctrine. they would never say another word to them again.

Well they picked up the word in the privacy of their own rooms, and read. and they learned what so many thousands have learned.

the bible does nto support the catholic church

Thats WHY they have to use history. Thats WHY they have to use sources outside the word of God, Thats why they have to spread faear that you should listen to them and them only. they have the true words of God and perfect understanding. no one else does.. so you should not even dare to believe anything else.

you want to live in that fear. feel free.


Other than that, When your ready to actually look at john 6 as a whole. I will open a thread and we will do it.

otherwise. Don't tell me I am against YOUR CHURCH only because I reject their reading of that passage.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You blindly follow YOU....that is until someone tells you something different that YOU agree with. Then you are following what they told you and YOU determine what they told you is true.

Nope

I follw what God shows me in his word. And if it does not make sence. I gather information from others or seek guidance to see what it does not make sense.

Can you really not see.......never mind. I should stop wasting my time showing you how illogical and anti-Scriptural your beliefs are.

Well when you actually want to show me how illogical my beliefs are. Bring it on

All you continue to do is say I follow men, I reject the church, and I have my own personal interpretation. Which you are either unable or unwilling to prove my interpretation is even in error because you will not discuss it

 

[Eternally Grateful]

When others attack rather than try to share truth just remember this verse and act accordingly !

Romans 16:17 I urge you, brethren, note those who cause divisions and offenses, contrary to the doctrine which you learned, and avoid them.

Titus 3:10 Reject a divisive man after the first and second admonition.........

sadly, some people think disagreeing with them is an attack.

They do this because they think they have the truth. so anything that would attempt to go against them in their view is causing a division.

 

[Augustin56]

Any excuse you will make to listen to men. and not think for yourself.

You are wrong here like you are wrong in so many areas.

Jesus told the disciples to go out and make new disciples. the things he told to the disciples would pass to their new disciples as well.


but.. You would rather listen to every excuse the roman church tells you to scare you into listening to them and them only..

If I remember right, did not the pharisees and priests use this very same tactic??

We need to learn from history. not make the same mistakes..

Jesus trained and formed men to spread His message. He didn't write a book to be self-interpreted to do so. The Apostles, likewise, trained and formed their successors, the bishops, who have done so now for close to 2000 years.

Unless you can prove that Jesus, or an angel from heaven, is appearing to you and interpreting Scripture for you, you are, yourself, "listening to men," be it yourself or one of the self-appointed founders of your man-made denomination. Ever think of that?

St. Peter warns against personal interpretation of Scripture in 2 Peter 1:20-21. Yet, this is what all of Protestantism is based upon.

St. Paul says that it is the Church that is the "pillar and foundation of truth." Nowhere does he say someone picking up a Bible and self-interpreting it through their own filters, is anything of the sort. Ask yourself, if self-interpreting the Bible was the way to go, why are there literally thousands (and counting) of man-made, disagreeing denominations out there?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Jesus trained and formed men to spread His message. He didn't write a book to be self-interpreted to do so. The Apostles, likewise, trained and formed their successors, the bishops, who have done so now for close to 2000 years.

Unless you can prove that Jesus, or an angel from heaven, is appearing to you and interpreting Scripture for you, you are, yourself, "listening to men," be it yourself or one of the self-appointed founders of your man-made denomination. Ever think of that?

St. Peter warns against personal interpretation of Scripture in 2 Peter 1:20-21. Yet, this is what all of Protestantism is based upon.

St. Paul says that it is the Church that is the "pillar and foundation of truth." Nowhere does he say someone picking up a Bible and self-interpreting it through their own filters, is anything of the sort. Ask yourself, if self-interpreting the Bible was the way to go, why are there literally thousands (and counting) of man-made, disagreeing denominations out there?

lol.. yeah, he gave us a book we can;t read or understand.

ok.

like I said, any excuse to keep yourself under the guidance of men.

lets just say this

when a word says 2 + 2 = 4

And someone comes in and says 2 + 2 = 5

then you walk away from the person who can not do basic math

The bible is not really all that complicated. Especially when you are born of God. What does the word say?

John disagrees with you (but you will not read John for yourself either will you. You have to listen to your church?

18 Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the[d] Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.
20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things. 21 I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

26 These things I have written to you concerning those who try to deceive you. 27 But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him.

John makes a point here we should all take heed. The word is written to us concerning those who try to deceive us. We have an anointing (if we do) then we do not need people to teach us, The same anointing that saved us will also teach is.

When someone tells you you should not listen to what you think, but always listen to them so you will not be deceived. Chances are they are the one deceiving you, and you need to read for yourself so you cannot be deceived.

in fact. History of mankind shows this is exactly what happens..

PS. John is not talking to apostles. or priests of leaders here. He is talking to fathers, young men and little children (vs 12 - 14)

don;t take my word for it though. Look it up and see for yourself.

 

[Marymog]

Nope

I follw what God shows me in his word. And if it does not make sence. I gather information from others or seek guidance to see what it does not make sense.

OK....then I will change my statement:

You follow what you THINK God has shown you in his word. If that doesn't make sense to YOU then you gather information or seek guidance from other men or women to see why it doesn't make sense. Once that other man or woman explains it to you in a way that makes sense YOU then decide that it makes sense. That means that you YOU have decided what they told you makes sense.

Sooo how is it that you are following what God shows you?

 

[L.A.M.B.]

sadly, some people think disagreeing with them is an attack.

They do this because they think they have the truth. so anything that would attempt to go against them in their view is causing a division.

I disagree.

I have seen "attacks " against ppl's character, faith and love of the word and God, as have you.

Doctrine is per the word of God without private interpretation from man.
Men's doctrines are corruption of the word used to divide and keep them in darkness rather than leading them into the light !

Zerubbabel 4:1................... `Not by might nor by power, but by MY SPIRIT,' says the LORD Almighty.

Therefore admonish, mark & avoid them, leaving them in God's hands and walk and live in the Spirit !

 

[Marymog]

once again, I do not listen to men. Stop your arrogant chants of this lie

Once again. I know you do not listen to men. I thought I have made it very clear that I understand that.

YOU listen to what other men/women have to say and then YOU decide if what they say is true or not. You change your view once YOU agree with their view and discard your old view.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I disagree.

I have seen "attacks " against ppl's character, faith and love of the word and God, as have you.

Doctrine is per the word of God without private interpretation from man.
Men's doctrines are corruption of the word used to divide and keep them in darkness rather than leading them into the light !

Zerubbabel 4:1................... `Not by might nor by power, but by MY SPIRIT,' says the LORD Almighty.

Therefore admonish, mark & avoid them, leaving them in God's hands and walk and live in the Spirit !

I agree, I have seen attacks

My point is that just telling what we believe, if it disagrees with what another person believes, can be construed as an attack.

when it is merely a disagreement.

I also agree, doctrine is the word of God without private interpretation of men, Sadly we can stick 4 men in a room, and all 4 men can have different views on what a passage says, yet they will all say it is the word of God. not their private interpretation.

now there are a few cases, where a particular word or passage can say what all 4 believe. it just speaks to the 4 in a different way, and non of them are wrong.. (which is one reason sayign I am right and you are wrong is damaging, because you can not seethat all of you are right)

but 90% of the time, Only one of the 4 are right in their interpretation.


what of the 3 who are wrong?

well. some will scream fight, yell attack the other three saying they are right and everyone else is wrong. and in doing so never come to truth

some will not even fight, they will just say I am right you are wrong, you have a private interpretation. and that is how it is

still others will question the others.. You say this, But does not the bible say that, And then let the other talk, and try to show them what they believe, Much of the times I have changed my view. this is how it happened. I questions a person. and listened to him, then went to my room and looked it up. studied it and asked God. Sadly. just me asking questions again can be seen as an attack, when it is not

In the same token, I have done the same thing, and came back and said I still do not see it. and either asked more questions. or asked them to sit down and see why I believe the way I do


I do not want that person to blindly follow me, I want them to listen, then go investigate for themselves. ask me questions. If at the end we can not see eye to eye.. then we should agree to disagree.

sadly many times it does not end their. the other person may continue to attack those who do not agree with them, and generally say things about them which is not true.. This causes the person to come back in and explain what they really believe, which again, can be seen as an attack.

Sadly it can happen that the attacks get out of hand and the lies said about others get so deep. that people react. and say things to repond to them which may not be very appealing to others (Jesus, and john and many other in the bible did this) and then all Hell breaks lose. even people who are just listening will rip that person apart and yet they have not said a word to the other person. And then division comes in between the brethren, because I can;t believe you said this

sadly, I have come to learn in my many years in christian chat (I think I am going on 10 years now) its a no win situation.


I do not know why, But God lays some people on your heart. and you genuinely try to talk to them to show them things they can not see.. And sadly, because of it, many of us (myself included) have been hurt from those we really care about..

I will say, When I was hard and prideful and not willing to listen to anyone else. I am thankful that someone stuck with me, that they kept comming back and did not give up. Until my pride could be broken and I could see my error

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Once again. I know you do not listen to men. I thought I have made it very clear that I understand that.

YOU listen to what other men/women have to say and then YOU decide if what they say is true or not. You change your view once YOU agree with their view and discard your old view.

lets see

I should follow what I see after thoroughly investigating what is said. and my eternity should be based on what I work hard to do

or I should blindly follow men who tell me to listen to them and no one else. And my eternity is dependent on them

See the difference?

 

[Marymog]

lets see

I should follow what I see after thoroughly investigating what is said. and my eternity should be based on what I work hard to do

or I should blindly follow men who tell me to listen to them and no one else. And my eternity is dependent on them

See the difference?

Yes EG, I think I see the difference.

You, like the Bereans, thoroughly investigate what is said to you in regard to the Truth of Scripture. Once your investigation is complete you then come to what you believe is the Truth. By doing this your eternity is in YOUR hands and NOT in the hands of men who tell you to listen to them and no one else.

Is that a good summary?

Adding to that what you previously said on this matter: Once your investigation is completed and have the Truth, another man or woman could come along and reveal something that you didn't take into consideration and your view, or understanding of the Truth, would then change. You are not blindly following that man or woman. That man/woman just gave you more information so that NOW your investigation is finally thorough and done.

Is that a fair summary?

Mary

 

[Marymog]

All you continue to do is say I follow men, I reject the church, and I have my own personal interpretation. Which you are either unable or unwilling to prove my interpretation is even in error because you will not discuss it

Once again EG. I do not think you are following men. YOU decide what is true or not true on what YOU have taught yourself and convinced yourself is true. You are not following or listening to or adhering to the doctrines of other men.....you are following, listening to, adhering to your doctrines/beliefs etc. You have come up with those beliefs by thoroughly investigating what Scripture says and compare that to what you believe and what other people believe about it. You then decide if you are right or if they are right. It is all on YOUR shoulders, not the shoulders of another person.

You DO reject The Church because you don't belong to a church that has elders that you, according to Scripture, are to be submissive to and obey them.

By your own admittance you DO have your own personal interpretation of Scripture because you REJECT anyone's interpretation that you don't agree with and accept their interpretation if you agree with them. That means that YOU come to your own interpretation! How hard is that to understand?

I have on MULTIPLE occasions discussed your interpretations and pointed out how you are in error by using Scripture, Christian history, hermeneutics and logic! Do you really not recall those conversations????

Mary

 

[Rockerduck]

No Holy Spirit, no Salvation. The body of Christ is the church, and His Chosen are the Temple of the Holy Spirit. When Jesus returns, real soon, He returns for His Chosen sheep who know His voice. Do not rely on a church organization to save you, it will not. The Body of Christ is the Church and Jesus is the High Priest.

 

[Taken]

Thank you for repeating the 500-year teaching of some, not all, Protestant men.

You are welcome, but think you have a misconception on the Time Frame.

Me and my ilk choose to adhere to the 2,000-year teaching of “The Church”.

2,000 + years ago the JEWISH Messiah Jesus established “His Church” with Jewish Believers Becoming the First Members of “His Church”.

and hold fast to the traditions that were taught by word of mouth or letter.

In what record of teaching DID Jesus or any Jewish member of Jesus’ 2,000+ year old Church teach…
Mary was naturally born without Sin?
Mary would or did remain a virgin forever?
Mary would or did bodily ascend into Heaven?
Mary was the Mother of Father God?

I have not, do not, see you having claimed yourself to be Jewish.

Seems you are speaking of another Church, establish by Gentiles, not Jews.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

lol.. yeah, he gave us a book we can;t read or understand.

ok.

like I said, any excuse to keep yourself under the guidance of men.

lets just say this

when a word says 2 + 2 = 4

And someone comes in and says 2 + 2 = 5

then you walk away from the person who can not do basic math

The bible is not really all that complicated. Especially when you are born of God. What does the word say?

John disagrees with you (but you will not read John for yourself either will you. You have to listen to your church?

18 Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the[d] Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.
20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things. 21 I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

26 These things I have written to you concerning those who try to deceive you. 27 But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him.

John makes a point here we should all take heed. The word is written to us concerning those who try to deceive us. We have an anointing (if we do) then we do not need people to teach us, The same anointing that saved us will also teach is.

When someone tells you you should not listen to what you think, but always listen to them so you will not be deceived. Chances are they are the one deceiving you, and you need to read for yourself so you cannot be deceived.

in fact. History of mankind shows this is exactly what happens..

PS. John is not talking to apostles. or priests of leaders here. He is talking to fathers, young men and little children (vs 12 - 14)

don;t take my word for it though. Look it up and see for yourself.

@Augustin56 and @Marymog I have opened a new thread to take this even deeper so as to not keep diverting this thread against its purpose.

John 6 and the bread from heaven

I hope you can come in with open minds and actually look at it. and discuss it.

However, if your just going to tell me I do not listen to the church, so I am wrong, Don't bother. It will be there for others to see and discuss..

 

[Marymog]

@Augustin56 and @Marymog I have opened a new thread to take this even deeper so as to not keep diverting this thread against its purpose.

John 6 and the bread from heaven

I hope you can come in with open minds and actually look at it. and discuss it.

However, if your just going to tell me I do not listen to the church, so I am wrong, Don't bother. It will be there for others to see and discuss..

Hey EG,

I will join you there.

BTW....I have only told you what Scripture says. Scripture says that The Church is the pillar and foundation of truth....not me. Not you. Not @Augustin56! The Church....

Scripture says that The Church decides who is repeating the Truth/telling the truth who is right (however you want to word it) and if you disagree with The Church you are excommunicated. I am not telling you that....Scripture tells you that.

If you have a problem with me repeating Scripture OR you don't like what Scripture says, then there is nothing to discuss.

None the less....Off to a new thread. See ya soon.

Mary

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Hey EG,

I will join you there.

BTW....I have only told you what Scripture says. Scripture says that The Church is the pillar and foundation of truth....not me. Not you. Not @Augustin56! The Church....

Scripture says that The Church decides who is repeating the Truth/telling the truth who is right (however you want to word it) and if you disagree with The Church you are excommunicated. I am not telling you that....Scripture tells you that.

If you have a problem with me repeating Scripture OR you don't like what Scripture says, then there is nothing to discuss.

None the less....Off to a new thread. See ya soon.

Mary

Oh I believe those words

I just believe “the church” would teach the oracles of God. And do what God said.

I do not believe your church fits that defenition.. so i do nto believe your church is that church

I believe the church is the body of Christ. Not a religious organization.

 

[Marymog]

I believe the church is the body of Christ. Not a religious organization.

Yes, members of The Church due make up the body of Christ.

Scripture says The Church is an organization with elders/deacons at the head of that Church. The 1st century Christians had elders/deacons as the head of their Church. They were told to go to The Church to settl their differences. They were told to obey and submit to those elders. It is DEFINATLY an organization. Without organization you have chaos. Protestantism brought us chaos.

The first elders ORGANIZED and had a meeting and made a decision at the Council of Jerusalem on what ALL Christians were to believe/teach on a matter. Those elders at the Council were NOT the Apostles only. There were other men there chosen by the Apostles to lead The Church.

none the less....thank you for your opinion

 

[Pierac]

Here is one question that no Protestant of your ilk has been able to answer. I hope you can:

Scripture, the word of God, equates being married to having children. Protestants of your ilk say there is a requirement to have sex when you are married. Having the child of another man means that you are married, or according to Scripture, should be married to that man.

Mary gave birth to God's child. We consider God a man. Yet, according to Protestants of your ilk, Mary still had sex with Joseph and had children with another man. Does that mean she committed adultery?

Mary

Are you Serious??? Did you actually write this???

What Man did Mary have sex with other than her husband??? and how many children did she have with that other man????

You hold a poor image of the Mother of our Jesus....

WOW.... You take making stupid comments ... to a whole new level!!!!

Paul

 

[Pierac]

Again you speak out of ignorance, and I don't want you to be ignorant of the Truth, so I'll share more Truth with you. I'll preface by saying in the 1940's Maria Valtorta was chosen by Jesus to be His "pen," to show her scenes from the Blessed Virgin Mary's life, as well as His own, then write all she heard, saw, and was told by Him to say.

All of Maria Valtorta's writings were compiled into a total of five volumes entitled: The Gospels As They Were Revealed To Me, or The Poem of the Man-God. They are a loving gift from Jesus that gives a more detailed look into the stories we read about in the Bible and others, including the marriage of Joseph and Mary, which you can read about in full in The Poem of the Man-God: Vol. I, ch. 12, pp. 36-39. Below is an excerpt.

Now, the Law prescribed that each man be given a woman of his own stock (Lev. 21:14). Therefore, at the request of the High Priest, many men of the race of David gathered in the Temple, and out of them all He appointed Joseph of Jacob of Bethlehem, a Nazirite (Hebrew who had taken special vows of abstinence, see Num. 6), as Mary's spouse. When Joseph and Mary met for the first time, each expressed their vows, and these are their words:

Joseph said to Mary, "I am a Nazirite," and Mary replied, "Also I am all of the Lord, Joseph. I do not know whether the High Priest told you..."

"He only told me that You are good and pure, that You wish to inform me of a vow, and that I must be good to you. Speak, Mary. Your Joseph wants You to be happy in all Your desires. I do not love You my with body. I love You with my soul, holy girl given to me by God! Please see in me a father and a brother, in addition to a husband. And open Your heart to me as to a father and rely on me as on a brother..."

"Since My childhood I have consecrated Myself to the Lord. I know this is not the custom in Israel. But I heard a voice requesting My virginity as a sacrifice of love for the coming of the Messiah. Israel has been waiting for Him for such a long time!... It is not too much to forgo the joy of being a mother for that!"

Joseph gazes at Her as if he wanted to read Her heart, then he takes Her tiny hands which are still holding the branch in blossom and he says: "I will join my sacrifice to Yours and we shall love the Eternal Father so much with our chastity that He will send His Savior to the world earlier, and will allow us to see His Light shining in the world."

After Joseph and Mary married, and She had conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit, Joseph noticed She was pregnant with a child not conceived by him, and thus considered divorcing Her quietly. So, an angel of God came to Joseph to explain why he was not to be afraid to keep (not divorce) his wife. Joseph decided against divorce and he and Mary continued to be chaste in their marriage for God.

Now, again, you haven't come back with an attempt at refuting the scriptural verses and testimonies in post #161 that prove those believed to be Jesus's siblings were actually His cousins. I say "attempt" because I know what I've proven to be the Truth can't be refuted, only accepted or rejected.

I get it.... You have Mommy issues...

BUT.... Trust me.... Joseph... banged little Mary like no tommorow after Jesus was born!

BTY..... Your Mommy and Daddy did it too... and still did after you were born... Shocking for sure!!!!