Irrefutable biblical proof that death is abolished at the second coming
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I take this as a compliment. If there were holes in the Op you would be the first to expose them.
What is "personal" in the Op? Nothing! Again, if you had something you would quote it.
I suspect your avoidance/frustration emanates from the fact that the Scriptures presented are so clear and compelling. You can certainly challenge my opinions, but, I do not know how Premils could refute (or explain away) the watertight texts submitted.
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Your discussion style, as demonstrated throughout this thread.
That is, IF I thought there were good reason. Again, why should I? I've seen how you respond to those who disagree with you, and I am not interested in that sort of discussion.
This is a very self-serving opinion.
I realize that.
I'm hoping you will take to heart what I've been saying here.
Much love!
I refer you back to the Op. I am not interested in your personal attacks. That seems to be all you want to do here.
If you are interested in discussing Scripture then do that. If not, then I do not know why you are here, apart from attack fellow believers or derail the thread.
Ronald D Milam
Active Member
The Scripture I presented forbids your thesis. All you are bringing to the table is your mistaken location of Revelation 20 which contradicts all the Scripture. Where is your support for your opinion of Revelation 20?
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Very good point!
Revelation 20:7-9 KJV
7) And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8) And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9) And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
This is clearly death following the second coming. It should put the matter to rest.
Much love!
This is more proof of how Premils force a square peg into a round hole. It simply doesn't fit. You prove my thesis: you interpret every Scripture through the lens of your mistaken view of Rev 20. That is your misguided obsession. Amils prefers what Paul the apostle in their hermeneutics: "what saith the Scripture?" (Rom 4:3). They interpret the highly-debated Rev 20 by the rest of Scripture. If you do that you will see that we are there now.
This is what i previously asked: where is your support for your opinion of Revelation 20? Where?
Corroboration to Premils tend to be interpreting their opinion of Revelation 20 by their opinion of Revelation 20. It is ridiculous. That is all they have.
I am happy to show you why Revelation 20 is not chronological to Revelation 19 in time. That seems to be all you have.
Premils constant avoidance of the Op (and Amil arguments) only serves to reinforce the fact that the Op is pretty watertight. That alone is a testimony to the strength of the Amil position and the great lack in the Premil position.
Revelation is full of recaps. Revelation 20 is the last of 7 recaps pertaining to the intra-Advent period. Revelation 19 is the second coming. It is also the end of the world. The fact is: there are no wicked left to rule over. All flesh is destroyed in Revelation 19 (as in every other Old Testament and New Testament second coming passage). Revelation 20 takes us back to Christ's victory over sin and death at the first resurrection and depicts the enlightenment of the Gentiles. It finishes with the general resurrection/judgment.
Revelation 19 is a picture of the glorious return of Christ. Jesus comes in majesty and power to execute judgment upon all. The all-consuming nature of the destruction and the all-inclusive degree of the judgment described in Revelation 19 fits with multiple Scripture that indicate that all the wicked will be destroyed at the appearing of Christ at the end. He destroys His enemies with the sword of His mouth – His very command. This is the power of His Word. His judgment cannot be thwarted or avoided.
Revelation 19 is the end of the world. All flesh is destroyed in that chapter. There is no one left to inhabit a future Premillennialist millennium. This is another text that forbids Premil.
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John 11:23-24 KJV
23) Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
24) Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
Daniel 12:12-13 KJV
12) Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
13) But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.
Much love!
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We have the "last days" (plural) which refer to the intra-Advent period and the "last day" (singular) that refer to resurrection/judgment day. This is the end.
Revelation 2:25-29 KJV
25) But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.
26) And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
27) And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
28) And I will give him the morning star.
29) He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
Who will they rule over? Living or dead? Mortal or immortal?
Much love!
25) But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.
26) And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
27) And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
28) And I will give him the morning star.
29) He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
Who will they rule over? Living or dead? Mortal or immortal?
Much love!
2 Resurrections:
Revelation 20:4-5 KJV
4) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5) But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Much love!
Revelation 20:4-5 KJV
4) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5) But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Much love!
Revelation 2:25-27: “And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end [Gr. telos], to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule [Gr. poimaino] them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be ‘broken to shivers’ [Gr. suntribo]: even as I received of my Father.”
The unindoctrinated mind will have no difficulty understanding the truth being presented here. It's very clear and unambiguous. We are looking at the total wholesale destruction of the wicked. That is what awaits the ungodly when Jesus comes.
The coming of Christ is not to high-five sin and mollycoddle sinners. It is to judge sinners and banish sin from the earth forever. Premil ushers countless mortal rebels unto the new earth, but Scripture shows they are all totally destroyed. The new earth is incorrupt! Only the incorrupt can possess it. Your argument conflicts with clear and repeated Scripture.
There is no reward awaiting these proud Christ-rejecters. When a pot is broken with an iron rod it is destroyed, not subjugated. It's state changes completely and it does not continue in its prior state. When therefore the wicked are “broken,” “dashed to pieces,” “cut off,” then “the wicked shall be no more” at the second coming. This is not an exercise in rulership, subjugation, or discipline; but rather their total obliteration; thus, the meaning of the analogy of the rod and the pottery. The vivid picture painted is of the potter destroying an unwanted useless vessel.
The original Greek in Revelation 19:15 states “he should smite [Gr. patasso ho ethnos kai autous poimaino autous] the nations, and shepherd them with a rod of iron.”
You need to see what the word poimaino means and how similar kindred words are interpreted elsewhere in Scripture. The word poimaino in this reading which is rendered “rule” in the AV, carries the consistent meaning of shepherd and shepherding in Scripture.
The picture here is of a Shepherd with a rod. However, this is NO ordinary Shepherd with no ordinary rod. The Shepherd here is Christ, and He is coming in His wrath at the end of this age to deal with the wicked thus the significance of the rod of iron. He is a jealous Shepherd who is finally coming to destroy those that have rejected Him. The shepherding is clearly associated with the FINAL separation.
There is no sense or mention of, or allowance for, survivors, as you imagine. All the wicked are destroyed. There is no one left to inherit this supposed future millennium full of sin and sinners, dying and crying, decay and disease.
Premils ignore the crucial words suntribo (to break to shivers) in Revelation 2:25-27 and patasso (to smite) in Revelation 19:15.
The same Shepherd who will comfort His sheep (the elect) will also destroy the goats (the wicked). This teaching is taken from Psalm 2:1-12. See what it is saying: “Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing? The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying, Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us. He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision. Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure. Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion. I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.Thou shalt break [Heb ra` a`] them with a rod of iron; ‘thou shalt dash them in pieces’ [Heb naphats] like a potter's vessel. Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth. Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling. Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.”
The Hebrew word ra` a` means to spoil: literally, by breaking to pieces; figuratively, to make (or be) good for nothing. The Hebrew word naphats here derives from a primitive root; to dash to pieces, or scatter.
The picture here is of a Shepherd with a rod. However, this is NO ordinary Shepherd with NO ordinary rod. The Shepherd here is Christ, and He is coming in His wrath at the end of this age to deal with the wicked thus the significance of the rod of iron. He is a jealous Shepherd who is finally coming to destroy those that have rejected Him. The shepherding is clearly associated with the FINAL separation.
There is no sense or mention of, or allowance for, survivors, as you imagine. All the wicked are destroyed. There is no one left to inherit this supposed future millennium full of sin and sinners, dying and crying, decay and disease.
The Lord encounters only 2 types of people when He comes – saved or lost, sheep or goats. The sheep enter into their eternal inheritance; the goats receive their eternal punishment. Nothing could be simpler. You invent some 3rd group of humans that are too righteous to be destroyed at the second coming, yet too wicked to be rescued, yet Premil argue among themselves who they actually are. The reality is: they don't exist.
Nowhere in any of these passages is there any insinuation of a 1,000 years shepherding (or ruling) over the nations -as Premil alleges. What is more, Nowhere in Rev 20 is there any mention of (1) a rod of iron, (2) Christ on earth, (3) and therefore Christ ruling on earth with a rod of iron for 1,000 years. You will only find that in the Premil textbooks.
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