Is believing in the trinity necessary to be a christian?

[KingJ]

The way to see the Trinity is like a marriage? I'd like to see the Scripture for that one please . . . ??
Haha. Of course power was given. To who? It was given to the man Christ Jesus, but that man was also the Almighty God who already had All Power.

You know what's really mad? It's this 'madness' that the Jews kept tripping over, and it's this 'madness' that the Greeks call foolish, just as you do now.

1Co 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
1Co 1:24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
The Jews were looking for a different Messiah, which is why they stumbled. And the Greeks called it foolish because they always thought carnally, creating the heavenly family, who sent down someone to earth etc. The Trinity is man's futile attempt to make something that was miraculous explainable. We can't explain how God, the Almighty, could someone fuse himself into the flesh, but we know it happened.

You say that no Trinitarian sees Jesus as inferior? Of course not! But I right now i wish there was a Unitarian here who could show you the error of the Trinity doctrine. If you make Jesus ONLY the Son, you DENY HIS SUPREME DEITY. Look through the Bible and tell me what you see. I see a Son who was SENT. I see a Son who had to PRAY. I see someone who had to EAT, SLEEP, and DRINK! I see a Son who DIED!! Is that God??? No!!! Stop kidding yourself. There is ONE way that you can make Jesus God. Make him ALL of God, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.

The Godhead (deity) is IN Jesus, not Jesus in the Godhead.

Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Jesus isn't IN the Godhead. He IS the Godhead.

Godhead implies.....there is a ''Godhead''. It is Jesus in the Godhead. He has all the power of the Godhead. Just as God the Father does. Ie There is God the Father. There is God the Son. There is God the Holy Spirit.

You are taking one side and ignoring the other. Whilst Meshak in the other thread is taking the other side and ignoring yours. I am taking both and putting them together... ^_^.

Side 1. Three separate beings. Jesus prays to the Father. The Holy Spirit descends on Jesus like a dove. Jesus will sit next to the Father.
Side 2. All three comprise the God-head. As you correctly quoted, Col 2:9 Jesus is God. The Father is God. The Holy Spirit is God.

Side 3. They are three and yet one. The BEST example to draw a parallel to this, that we have, is marriage! Mark 10:8 and the two will become one flesh.' So they are no longer two, but one flesh ..... It is the only ''sane'' example of the trinity. If God can make two into one flesh, surely three can be one spirit.

Haha. Of course power was given. To who? It was given to the man Christ Jesus, but that man was also the Almighty God who already had All Power.

Yes, I agree the ''given'' was out of context with my use. Jesus had all power.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Salvation does not consist of filling out a list of theological questions correctly.

But it does require following correct doctrine, i.e., instruction.

 

[Groundzero]

Godhead implies.....there is a ''Godhead''. It is Jesus in the Godhead. He has all the power of the Godhead. Just as God the Father does. Ie There is God the Father. There is God the Son. There is God the Holy Spirit.

You are taking one side and ignoring the other. Whilst Meshak in the other thread is taking the other side and ignoring yours. I am taking both and putting them together... ^_^.

Side 1. Three separate beings. Jesus prays to the Father. The Holy Spirit descends on Jesus like a dove. Jesus will sit next to the Father.
Side 2. All three comprise the God-head. As you correctly quoted, Col 2:9 Jesus is God. The Father is God. The Holy Spirit is God.

Side 3. They are three and yet one. The BEST example to draw a parallel to this, that we have, is marriage! Mark 10:8 and the two will become one flesh.' So they are no longer two, but one flesh ..... It is the only ''sane'' example of the trinity. If God can make two into one flesh, surely three can be one spirit.

How can Jesus have ALL the power, and the Father have ALL the power at the same time? Unless Jesus and the Father are the same person?

Do you know what Godhead means? It means divinity/deity. Maybe that will help put it in focus. Either Jesus is Lord of all, or he's not Lord at all.

Now your three sides:
First one, I've already explained why Christ prayed. It's because he was flesh. And if I was you, I wouldn't push that point, since praying immediately states that whoever is praying is inferior as he needs help. Now as to the Spirit like a dove, how many Spirits do you think there are? I read that there is ONE spirit! The dove was a sign to John the Baptist that this was the Messiah. Jesus ALREADY had the Spirit of God in him! And as to sitting on the right hand of the Father, isn't it clear that the Father doesn't have literal hands? That it's referring figuratively to Christ being put in a position of power?

Second one: I love the way you say, Col. 2:9, Jesus is God, the Father is God, The Holy Spirit is God. What about we read the verse?
In HIM (Christ) dwelleth ALL the Fullness of Divinity/Deity! Jesus was 1/3 of God, he wasn't a member of God, he WAS God in every sense!

Third one: You clearly saved the best to last. Marriage? Really? And that's the only 'sane' example?
This is what Jesus said about the Father: Joh_14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen‡† me hath seen‡† the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

If you have seen me, you have SEEN the Father. Do you tell people, if you have seen me, you've seen my Dad? I hope not. I really doubt that Jesus would've said what he said unless he WAS the Father. Christ is the image of the invisible God.

2Co_4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

I see a Son who was SENT. I see a Son who had to PRAY. I see someone who had to EAT, SLEEP, and DRINK! I see a Son who DIED!! Is that God??? No!!! Stop kidding yourself. There is ONE way that you can make Jesus God. Make him ALL of God, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.

Uh, yeah... That is part of the great mystery. The logos was made flesh (the son) and died. Did the logos lose his divinity when he was made flesh? Yet he died.

A great mystery.

Start using your carnal mind to see three separate individuals mentioned.

You are limiting yourself to a carnal mind when you grasp a marriage of two and not three.

The carnal mind is death. Why would you tell me to start using it?

Jesus isn't IN the Godhead. He IS the Godhead.

Jesus is the name of the godhead, but the son is not the father.

I read that there is ONE spirit!

I read that there are seven spirits. Now this is really starting to get complicated! What's the right word for a 9-fold marriage? Doesn't this mean we should believe in a Ninity instead of a Trinity?

 

[KingJ]

How can Jesus have ALL the power, and the Father have ALL the power at the same time? Unless Jesus and the Father are the same person?

The same way your mother can have all access to the wedlock bank account and yet not be your father.

Do you know what Godhead means? It means divinity/deity. Maybe that will help put it in focus. Either Jesus is Lord of all, or he's not Lord at all.

You need to look at the context of its use. Why state Godhead and not simply God? Godhead in Col 2:9 implies more then one / ie trinity.

Now your three sides:
First one, I've already explained why Christ prayed. It's because he was flesh. And if I was you, I wouldn't push that point, since praying immediately states that whoever is praying is inferior as he needs help. Now as to the Spirit like a dove, how many Spirits do you think there are? I read that there is ONE spirit! The dove was a sign to John the Baptist that this was the Messiah. Jesus ALREADY had the Spirit of God in him! And as to sitting on the right hand of the Father, isn't it clear that the Father doesn't have literal hands? That it's referring figuratively to Christ being put in a position of power?

You are skimming. You are not looking deep enough at the actual words used in those verses. Consider even when Jesus went to the cross ''My Lord if it were possible take this from me''. Jesus was not inferior. Praying to God did not make Him look inferior as far as His Godliness went. We know that He was put in the flesh. The flesh is weak. He was inferior only in as much as the flesh was weak.

Second one: I love the way you say, Col. 2:9, Jesus is God, the Father is God, The Holy Spirit is God. What about we read the verse?
In HIM (Christ) dwelleth ALL the Fullness of Divinity/Deity! Jesus was 1/3 of God, he wasn't a member of God, he WAS God in every sense!

Whilst earthly marriage is not the best comparison as it suffers with who leads...I can apply a principle here. Say my mother came to pick me up in another country. She can sign my release forms as she fully qualifies as my parent. She also has full access to the wedlock bank account.

Third one: You clearly saved the best to last. Marriage? Really? And that's the only 'sane' example?

Yes it is. Consider yours. You are saying that Jesus told the disciples to pray to God the Father who art in heaven, when He was actually standing right their in front fo them.....He lied?

Just a side note. The three sides work like a trig equation without the angle. If we know side 1 and 2, we can better deduce the answer (side 3).

This is what Jesus said about the Father: Joh_14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen‡† me hath seen‡† the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

My mother qualifies to teach me what please my parents as she is my mother. If I accept her, I accept my Father as they are one. How can I say, I accept my mother and not my father, as they are one as parents. Of course we need to imagine perfect parents in perfect harmony with each other.

If you have seen me, you have SEEN the Father. Do you tell people, if you have seen me, you've seen my Dad? I hope not. I really doubt that Jesus would've said what he said unless he WAS the Father. Christ is the image of the invisible God.

You are doing it again. You still only take one side. Jesus said that AND He said 'I am the Son of God'. It is clear that Jesus is not a Son of God in the same manner as I am a son of my dad. United in a different sense. Hence I said...parents in marriage is a better example....not a perfect example. ^_^

2Co_4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

You getting nasty now?

 

[Episkopos]

But it does require following correct doctrine, i.e., instruction.

Good instruction comes FROM life and when properly received produces life.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Good instruction comes FROM life and when properly received produces life.

That's true, and it will align with scripture, i.e., the teachings of those who went before us, every time.

 

[KingJ]

The carnal mind is death. Why would you tell me to start using it?

We still have to and can use our brain.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Well I didnt want to say brain. As in ''use your brain'' -_- .

So I'm not using my brain when I extrapolate in 4 dimensions, and you confine yourself to 3?

 

[KingJ]

So I'm not using my brain when I extrapolate in 4 dimensions, and you confine yourself to 3?

I was not aware that I was confining :unsure:. I did re-word that. Sorry as it is sarcastic.

Perhaps in time I will see it your way, but at the moment it sounds like madness, not that I think you are a mad Christian. ^_^ ^_^

I should and do have complete peace with you and anyone else who believes Jesus is God!

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

I was not aware that I was confining :unsure:. I did re-word that. Sorry as it is sarcastic.

Perhaps in time I will see it your way, but at the moment it sounds like madness, not that I think you are a mad Christian. ^_^ ^_^

I should and do have complete peace with you and anyone else who believes Jesus is God!

Cool. Peace and love to you. It really is a non-essential doctrine. People see what they see now "through a glass darkly', but then face to face. That is what matters - that we arrive there. Godspeed, brother.

 

[Butch5]

Jesus is the Potentate, King of kings, and Lord of lords, not the father. The father is the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see, except Jesus.

The passage says that Jesus will show who is the only Potentate, the King of kings who alone has immortality which no man can see. "Which no man can see" is not a description of Jesus, but rather of the Father. Jesus said He came out of the Father, He is the begotten God, immortality belongs to the Father, He give it to the Son.

14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen. (1Ti 6:14-16 KJV)

 

[Groundzero]

Uh, yeah... That is part of the great mystery. The logos was made flesh (the son) and died. Did the logos lose his divinity when he was made flesh? Yet he died.

A great mystery.

I read that there are seven spirits. Now this is really starting to get complicated! What's the right word for a 9-fold marriage? Doesn't this mean we should believe in a Ninity instead of a Trinity?

Hahaha. I should study Revelation one day so I actually have an idea about what the seven spirits are. . Totally valid though. Why should we stop at three? i mean, seven is God's number? lol

The same way your mother can have all access to the wedlock bank account and yet not be your father.


You need to look at the context of its use. Why state Godhead and not simply God? Godhead in Col 2:9 implies more then one / ie trinity.


You are skimming. You are not looking deep enough at the actual words used in those verses. Consider even when Jesus went to the cross ''My Lord if it were possible take this from me''. Jesus was not inferior. Praying to God did not make Him look inferior as far as His Godliness went. We know that He was put in the flesh. The flesh is weak. He was inferior only in as much as the flesh was weak.


Whilst earthly marriage is not the best comparison as it suffers with who leads...I can apply a principle here. Say my mother came to pick me up in another country. She can sign my release forms as she fully qualifies as my parent. She also has full access to the wedlock bank account.


Yes it is. Consider yours. You are saying that Jesus told the disciples to pray to God the Father who art in heaven, when He was actually standing right their in front fo them.....He lied?

Just a side note. The three sides work like a trig equation without the angle. If we know side 1 and 2, we can better deduce the answer (side 3).


My mother qualifies to teach me what please my parents as she is my mother. If I accept her, I accept my Father as they are one. How can I say, I accept my mother and not my father, as they are one as parents. Of course we need to imagine perfect parents in perfect harmony with each other.


You are doing it again. You still only take one side. Jesus said that AND He said 'I am the Son of God'. It is clear that Jesus is not a Son of God in the same manner as I am a son of my dad. United in a different sense. Hence I said...parents in marriage is a better example....not a perfect example. ^_^


You getting nasty now?..

Uh. I don't know what happens where you come from, but my mother CAN'T access my Father's bank account unless BOTH of them have signed it . . . .

Look at the context? I've looked at the context alright! In Matthew 28:19, it tells me that I should baptise in THE NAME of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. All three of them have the same name! Since when was it compulsory to divide up deity? God never asked us to do that, in fact, he consistently emphasised that he was ONE.

I'm skimming? You've just explained precisely what I believe, except that I say that Jesus' Spirit wasn't just 1/3 of God, but it was ALL of God! :/

But Jesus said, if you have seen me, you have seen the Father. That is impossible except that Jesus was the Father.

You clearly failed to read the verse where Jesus said that he will answer whatever we ask in His name. I'll repost it for you.
Joh 14:14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

I would recommend looking in the mirror before you accuse me of taking one side. I can debate as a Unitarian as well as a Trinitarian. I think you completely missed the point, or more likely, you don't want to address the point. The point is that Jesus CAN say that if you see Him you see the Father, because he was the IMAGE of the Father.

And no. I'm not getting nasty. (if you were paying attention to the topic, you would see why I posted that verse, it refers to Christ being the image of the invisible God.)

I have a question: Since you believe the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are all separate, then WHO was the Father of the Son?

 

[KingJ]

I'm skimming? You've just explained precisely what I believe, except that I say that Jesus' Spirit wasn't just 1/3 of God, but it was ALL of God! :/

But Jesus said, if you have seen me, you have seen the Father. That is impossible except that Jesus was the Father.

And Jesus also says we must pray to the Father....Like I said, I take both sides.

You clearly failed to read the verse where Jesus said that he will answer whatever we ask in His name. I'll repost it for you.
Joh 14:14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

Yes. If I ask my dad for something that my mom approved, he will get it for me.

I would recommend looking in the mirror before you accuse me of taking one side. I can debate as a Unitarian as well as a Trinitarian. I think you completely missed the point, or more likely, you don't want to address the point. The point is that Jesus CAN say that if you see Him you see the Father, because he was the IMAGE of the Father.

Yes, my mother is the image of my parents. In me are genes from both mother and father.

I have a question: Since you believe the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are all separate, then WHO was the Father of the Son?

God the Father ''is'', God the Son ''is'', God the Holy Spirit ''is''.

Zebra, sure a marriage is not a perfect example but it helps me quite a lot in grasping a fraction of God's ability to be three separate individuals and yet one.

The trinity is a mystery. But the facts that are not up for debate we agree on.

ChristRose made a good point in post #153 ''we look through a glass darkly''. But in our spirits we KNOW that Jesus is God!!!!!!

I respect you and your view!! Sorry that we couldn't have a friendlier discussion ^_^. I am done with this topic now.

 

[Groundzero]

And Jesus also says we must pray to the Father....Like I said, I take both sides.


Yes. If I ask my dad for something that my mom approved, he will get it for me.


Yes, my mother is the image of my parents. In me are genes from both mother and father.


God the Father ''is'', God the Son ''is'', God the Holy Spirit ''is''.

Zebra, sure a marriage is not a perfect example but it helps me quite a lot in grasping a fraction of God's ability to be three separate individuals and yet one.

The trinity is a mystery. But the facts that are not up for debate we agree on.

ChristRose made a good point in post #153 ''we look through a glass darkly''. But in our spirits we KNOW that Jesus is God!!!!!!

I respect you and your view!! Sorry that we couldn't have a friendlier discussion ^_^. I am done with this topic now.

Wow. After reading this I think I rest my case. What in the world do your first four sentences even mean?? You can't take both sides. God wants either hot or cold, not in the middle. I don't know what this gibberish about your mum is, but Jesus said that if we ask HIM, HE will do it. No other person is mentioned. And No, you wouldn't have the audacity to tell someone that if they saw you, they had seen your mother! Because that would probably get you put in the looney bin. I'll guess I'll just keep repeating my points and by some stroke of luck, you might suddenly realise what I'm saying. . . .

That's not an answer. How can God the Son be the Father of God the Son? Who are you trying to fool?
The trinity is a mystery? Can you show me Scriptural evidence that supports this 'mystery'?

Of course Jesus is God. That's what I've been saying all along. I make him all that God is, and my contention is that the Trinity removes Jesus from his rightful place as supreme deity by making just one member in a 'holy' (sic) Trinity.

Jesus is the One and only God. It will never change no matter what man says or does.

 

[KingJ]

Wow. After reading this I think I rest my case. What in the world do your first four sentences even mean?? You can't take both sides. God wants either hot or cold, not in the middle. I don't know what this gibberish about your mum is, but Jesus said that if we ask HIM, HE will do it. No other person is mentioned. And No, you wouldn't have the audacity to tell someone that if they saw you, they had seen your mother! Because that would probably get you put in the looney bin. I'll guess I'll just keep repeating my points and by some stroke of luck, you might suddenly realise what I'm saying. . . .

That's not an answer. How can God the Son be the Father of God the Son? Who are you trying to fool?
The trinity is a mystery? Can you show me Scriptural evidence that supports this 'mystery'?

Of course Jesus is God. That's what I've been saying all along. I make him all that God is, and my contention is that the Trinity removes Jesus from his rightful place as supreme deity by making just one member in a 'holy' (sic) Trinity.

Jesus is the One and only God. It will never change no matter what man says or does.

Sure, reading my reply does sound odd (even when I re-read it ^_^), referring to mother and father etc etc....but as I said it is not a perfect example ObvIoUsLy, but is the best example we have imho. Scripture teaching that two flesh can and does become one does not sound odd to you?

You laugh at my view, but I laugh at your view because you are IGNORING and DODGING repeatedly, scripture that clearly mentions THREE SEPARATE beings! interacting with each other on many occasions!!!

SURE, there is scripture that says Jesus is the Godhead bodily. But there is ALSO, ALSO, ALSO scripture that says the Holy Spirit descended on Jesus. Jesus sits next to God. Jesus prayed to God, '''if it be thy will take this cup from me.........??????????!!!!!!!!''

I know you tried to explain the above, but I can't accept your answer. It makes no sense to me that Jesus would pray to Himself, why pray?.

Now I said NICELY, we CAN come into agreement that Jesus IS God! That is NOT up for debate. There is God the Father. God the Son and God the Holy ghost. Joined in some difficult to explain spiritual manner ^_^.

We will only grasp this properly in heaven I guess.

 

[Groundzero]

Sure, reading my reply does sound odd (even when I re-read it ^_^), referring to mother and father etc etc....but as I said it is not a perfect example ObvIoUsLy, but is the best example we have imho. Scripture teaching that two flesh can and does become one does not sound odd to you?

You laugh at my view, but I laugh at your view because you are IGNORING and DODGING repeatedly, scripture that clearly mentions THREE SEPARATE beings! interacting with each other on many occasions!!!

SURE, there is scripture that says Jesus is the Godhead bodily. But there is ALSO, ALSO, ALSO scripture that says Jesus prayed to God. The Holy Spirit descended on Jesus. Jesus sits NEXT to God.

It goes back to the two sides needed to draw a CORRECT answer. You ARE just taking ONE side.

Now I said NICELY, we CAN come into agreement that Jesus IS God! That is NOT up for debate. There is God the Father. God the Son and God the Holy ghost. Joined in some difficult to explain spiritual manner ^_^.

We will only grasp this properly in heaven I guess.

I wasn't going to reply, but here I go.

Me dodging?? I would strongly suggest reading back carefully to see who was dodging. It wasn't me.

And what's all this about Jesus sitting next to God? I thought you believed Jesus IS God?? Make your mind up.

What two sides? What are you talking about??

Oh. I agree that Jesus is God. Isn't that obvious? But then again, after reading your replies, I wouldn't be surprised.

Now you mentioned me dodging? Let me give you some examples of dodging (and no sorry, they're not me. I have dodged at some stage in my life, but not in this conversation):

1. The trinity is a mystery? Can you show me Scriptural evidence that supports this 'mystery'?
2. Since you believe the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are all separate, then WHO was the Father of the Son?
3. The way to see the Trinity is like a marriage? I'd like to see the Scripture for that one please . . . ??
4. How can Jesus have ALL the power, and the Father have ALL the power at the same time? Unless Jesus and the Father are the same person?

And mind you. These are direct questions. Not to mention all the themes you conveniently mentioned, and then failed to refute what I put forward, and then to top it off, you reposted again.

 

[meshak]

Wow. After reading this I think I rest my case. What in the world do your first four sentences even mean?? You can't take both sides. God wants either hot or cold, not in the middle. I don't know what this gibberish about your mum is, but Jesus said that if we ask HIM, HE will do it. No other person is mentioned. And No, you wouldn't have the audacity to tell someone that if they saw you, they had seen your mother! Because that would probably get you put in the looney bin. I'll guess I'll just keep repeating my points and by some stroke of luck, you might suddenly realise what I'm saying. . . .

That's not an answer. How can God the Son be the Father of God the Son? Who are you trying to fool?
The trinity is a mystery? Can you show me Scriptural evidence that supports this 'mystery'?

Of course Jesus is God. That's what I've been saying all along. I make him all that God is, and my contention is that the Trinity removes Jesus from his rightful place as supreme deity by making just one member in a 'holy' (sic) Trinity.

Jesus is the One and only God. It will never change no matter what man says or does.

Wow, here is another strange statement. Jesus is the only God? So He does not have Father? So He is not even Son of God?

Do you know that Jesus says He was sent by His Father and became His Lamb for the world?

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Wow, here is another strange statement. Jesus is the only God? So He does not have Father? So He is not even Son of God?

Do you know that Jesus says He was sent by His Father and became His Lamb for the world?

When you go to the grocery store, what sends you? Your body or your mind?

 

[KingJ]

I wasn't going to reply, but here I go.

Me dodging?? I would strongly suggest reading back carefully to see who was dodging. It wasn't me.

And what's all this about Jesus sitting next to God? I thought you believed Jesus IS God?? Make your mind up.

What two sides? What are you talking about??

Oh. I agree that Jesus is God. Isn't that obvious? But then again, after reading your replies, I wouldn't be surprised.

Now you mentioned me dodging? Let me give you some examples of dodging (and no sorry, they're not me. I have dodged at some stage in my life, but not in this conversation):

1. The trinity is a mystery? Can you show me Scriptural evidence that supports this 'mystery'?
2. Since you believe the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are all separate, then WHO was the Father of the Son?
3. The way to see the Trinity is like a marriage? I'd like to see the Scripture for that one please . . . ??
4. How can Jesus have ALL the power, and the Father have ALL the power at the same time? Unless Jesus and the Father are the same person?

And mind you. These are direct questions. Not to mention all the themes you conveniently mentioned, and then failed to refute what I put forward, and then to top it off, you reposted again.

1. Jesus talks to God yet calls Himself God
2. God is. Since Jesus is God. Jesus is.
3. God makes two flesh, one in marriage. God is described as three separate individuals. Yet they are also described as one. See the parallel?
4. Joint bank account I guess.

Repost?....only because your arrogant tone and replies suggests you skim and dodge. I really don't have much more to say on the matter then has been said above....and this is a repost yet again....because you still don't get my view perhaps?

Yes, Zebra, you are right and I am wrong. It makes perfect sense that Jesus will become a dove and sit on His own shoulder. Jesus will pray to Himself in the desert for 40 days. Jesus will beg Himself not to go the cross. Jesus will sit next to Himself in heaven. Perfect sense .

And I am wrong because the example of a marriage where two flesh can be one flesh and spirit is too carnal? Three bodies and yet one in spirit, parallel does not make Jesus of lessor Godhead status then God.

You may be right, I may be wrong, in time I just may see it as you do..... but right now...I see you as slightly mad .