Is it a sin to use contraception?

[farouk]

Are you proposing that that somehow justifies a deliberate effort on top of that?
Or that a deliberate effort is just as innocent as a physiological predisposition?

When the matter of intent is considered, I'm not sure about any supposed implication that if a condom is discovered to have beeen unsuccessful the husband must either not inform his wife of the fact that the condom has failed or else, even if he does tell her, there must then be no hormonally based recourse available to the wife, even if the consented use of the condom originally by its very nature indicated intent to use bc.

 

[Sabertooth]

When the matter of intent is considered, I'm not sure about any supposed implication that if a condom is discovered to have beeen unsuccessful the husband must either not inform his wife of the fact that the condom has failed or else, even if he does tell her, there must then be no hormonally based recourse available to the wife, even if the consented use of the condom originally by its very nature indicated intent to use bc.

But you are glossing over the distinction between

1. keeping the gametes separate (no fertilization) and
2. deliberately terminating a zygote (post-fertilization).

Though there are other problems associated with it,* #1 is ethically neutral.
#2 requires breaching an ethical boundary.

*One theory for the increase in breast cancer that I have heard proposed --by women, no less-- was the general delay in first lactation; a delay in complete maturity of the breast.

 

[farouk]

But you are glossing over the distinction between

1. keeping the gametes separate (no fertilization) and
2. deliberately terminating a zygote (post-fertilization).

Though there are other problems associated with it, #1 is ethically neutral.
#2 requires breaching an ethical boundary.

Well, so when the husband doesn't know that there has been fertilization - but he does know that the condom has failed - is he supposed to keep quiet about the condom failure, or is the wife if she finds out that it has failed supposed to have no hormonal bc recourse to compensate for the condom's failure, even when she doesn't know that there has been any fertilization?

I do think that for local churches in this precise sort of situation to see themselves as having directional /disciplinary role, would be to go far beyond what the fellowship supportive role of a local church is supposed Scripturally to be.

 

[Sabertooth]

Well, so when the husband doesn't know that there has been fertilization - but he does know that the condom has failed - is he supposed to keep quiet about the condom failure, or is the wife if she finds out that it has failed supposed to have no hormonal bc recourse to compensate for the condom's failure, even when she doesn't know that there has been any fertilization?

They should certainly communicate the condom failure. Should they then be happy with "At least, we'll kill it in the next stage...?"

I do think that for local churches in this precise sort of situation to see themselves as having directional /disciplinary role, would be to go far beyond what the fellowship supportive role of a local church is supposed Scripturally to be.

Non-sequitur. Are you comfortable with a method that deliberately terminates a successful zygote, after-the-fact? Each couple must deal with this question before the Lord, regardless of their church's position.

I am skeptical that those who would answer in the affirmative could really claim be pro-Life, though. It isn't about discipline. It is about maintaining a clear conscience.

 

[farouk]

They should certainly communicate the condom failure. Should they then be happy with "At least, we'll kill it in the next stage...?"

Non-sequitur. Are you comfortable with a method that deliberately terminates a successful zygote, after-the-fact? Each couple must deal with this question before the Lord, regardless of their church's position.

I am skeptical that those who would answer in the affirmative could really claim be pro-Life, though. It isn't about discipline. It is about maintaining a clear conscience.

I'm not American; while I'm instinctively against abortion, I sense a lot of overtones of US political culture and discourse in some of the "Pro-Life" discourse.

But in any case, my rhetorical question in response would be: Does a woman really have to argue that she has a "Pro-Life" badge because she doesn't use bc, and not using bc makes her supposedly politically sound?

(I appreciate your patience in discussing these matters; you see, outside the US the whole area is less politicized. For example, in Quebec, there were never any attempts to enforce Prohibition, with all its negative consequences, although again, I don't drink alcohol.)

 

[Cristo Rei]

Today it would be unthinkable for a preacher to announce: "Today Brother so-and-so has been excommunicated because he used a condom with his brother's widow."

But those who wish to force the church to be viewed as Old Testament Israel would logically - if not in actual fact - be promoting this kind of weird scenario.

C'mon, nobody is being "excommunicated". Such a harsh word.
I only learnt of it 5 months ago in learning about the schism of the 11th century
There is no one getting excommunicated from Christ or anyone.
We are just having a conversation and trying to interpret scripture. Its all good

 

[Cristo Rei]

All we do have is

"But Er, Judah’s firstborn, was wicked in the sight of the Lord, and the Lord killed him." Genesis 38:7 NKJV

True. I was thinking it could mean that we are actually reading too much into Onan's sin.
No one ever asks about Er's sin

 

[Cristo Rei]

Interesting to see how the conversation has developed. I wasn't sure what u guys were talking about at first but i see that its about failed contraception and the morality of having the abortion.

Im reminded of a "born alive" procedure. An abortion that is performed late in the pregnancy is done during child birth.
Sometimes the baby slips out before they get the chance to kill it. So what now? Do u kill the baby because it was supposed to be aborted?

 

[Sabertooth]

Does a woman really have to argue that she has a "Pro-Life" badge because she doesn't use bc, and not using bc makes her supposedly politically sound?

And did I ever suggest that BC disqualifies one from being pro-Life?

• Non-abortifacient BC does not.
• Ignorance of abortifacient BC does not (but it's kind of hard to unsee it, once you see it).

 

[farouk]

And did I ever suggest that BC disqualifies one from being pro-Life?

• Non-abortifacient BC does not.
• Ignorance of abortifacient BC does not (but it's kind of hard to unsee it, once you see it).

Thanks for all your thoughtful comments.

Blessings.

 

[Stan B]

Why is it bad Stan? Do you have a scriptural basis for this opinion?

Because it has absolutely nothing to do with the topic!

Why is it bad Stan? Do you have a scriptural basis for this opinion?

Yes! The total absence of Scripture to support your idealogy!

Paul warned us, that after we were set free from the Law. there would be those from the dark side who would reimpose the burden from which we had been set free, by imposing their own laws self-manufactured laws upon us.

 

[Huperetes]

Because it has absolutely nothing to do with the topic!

Yes! The total absence of Scripture to support your idealogy!

Paul warned us, that after we were set free from the Law. there would be those from the dark side who would reimpose the burden from which we had been set free, by imposing their own laws self-manufactured laws upon us.

Calm down. This is only a discussion. My post had everything to do with the topic. It is also a but insulting on your part when you suggest that I am advocating a return to the law. I am only using it "lawfully" to draw a picture.

1 Ti 1:8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;

How do you feel about this verse?

2 Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.

 

[BreadOfLife]

I am satisfied that God has been telling the truth, and your religion regards Him as a liar.

We are made of clay. I don't intend to waste time debating that with you. Go look it up on the internet. The body consists of something like 63 elements, ALL of which are found in the soil. And everything we eat, comes from the soil, so basically we survive upon eating dirt! And when we die, we return to dirt!

And yet, that doesn't change the fact that YOU came out of your mother's womb, as did Job.
NEITHER of you were fashioned out of clay.

You were fashioned by a sperm and an egg and the Spirit of God - just as EVERY other child is that YOU ignorantly refer to as "miscellaneous unformed fetal tissue".

 

[Sabertooth]

Yes! The total absence of Scripture to support your idealogy!

Paul warned us, that after we were set free from the Law. there would be those from the dark side who would reimpose the burden from which we had been set free, by imposing their own laws self-manufactured laws upon us.

You cannot show in the Bible that the pre-born are any less human than the rest of us. Until you can, deliberately killing them remains murder.

 

[farouk]

@Sabertooth Anyway, I can't see condoms as abortifacient by any stretch of the imagination. (I know some ppl are even against condoms.)

 

[Sabertooth]

@Sabertooth Anyway, I can't see condoms as abortifacient by any stretch of the imagination.

Agreed.

 

[farouk]

@Stan B Of course, some ppl even find condoms problematic.

 

[Illuminator]

• Women who have had an abortion have an 81% higher risk of subsequent mental health problems compared to women who have not had an abortion.
• Women who aborted have a 138% higher risk of mental health problems compared to women who have given birth.
• Women who aborted have a 55% higher risk of mental health problems compared to women with an “unplanned” pregnancy who gave birth.
• Women with a history of abortion have higher rates of anxiety (34% higher), depression (37%), alcohol use/misuse (110%), marijuana use (230%), and suicidal behavior (155%), compared to those who have not had an abortion.

British Journal of Psychiatry (Coleman, PK, “Abortion and Mental Health: Quantitative Synthesis and Analysis of Research Published 1995-2009,” BJP 2011; 199:180-186). The meta-analysis conducted by Professor Priscilla Coleman, PhD of Bowling Green State University, examines twenty-two major studies published between 1995 and 2009 involving a total of 877,181 women, of whom 163,831 had abortions.

Project Rachel - HopeAfterAbortion.org

How to Talk to a Friend Who’s Had An Abortion

 

[Stan B]

And yet, that doesn't change the fact that YOU came out of your mother's womb, as did Job.
NEITHER of you were fashioned out of clay.

You were fashioned by a sperm and an egg and the Spirit of God - just as EVERY other child is that YOU ignorantly refer to as "miscellaneous unformed fetal tissue".

So . . . I have a choice of believing God or believing you! <giggle>

“But now, O Lord, You are our Father; we are the clay, and You our potter; and all we are the work of Your hand.” (Isaiah 64:8)

 

[Stan B]

@Stan B Of course, some ppl even find condoms problematic.

The use of various devices and medications is universally practiced, and even amongst Catholics, 95% use birth control.