Is it ok for a Christian to kill people?

[Duckybill]

Your point is made.
Any time that a parent who kept their child with severe illness away from a doctor or hospital because they have faith God will heal them, the death of the child is solely and completely because the parents were without enough faith.

Got it. Thanks.

Did God promise to heal His people who are sick?

 

[Foreigner]

God said, "Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove;"

-- Keeping your child home from a doctor or hospital in order to pray for them because you believe with your whole heart that God will heal them sure sounds like they were able to manifest quite a bit more faith than "the grain of a mustard seed."

But according to you, that grain just wasn't enough,

Was God not telling the truth? If He was telling the truth, why did the child die?

 

[Duckybill]

God said, "Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove;"

-- Keeping your child home from a doctor or hospital in order to pray for them because you believe with your whole heart that God will heal them sure sounds like they were able to manifest quite a bit more faith than "the grain of a mustard seed."

But according to you, that grain just wasn't enough,

Was God not telling the truth? If He was telling the truth, why did the child die?

Did God promise healing? If so, we have the choice to blame God or the parents.

 

[Foreigner]

Of course. Because keeping your near-death child home to pray for him instead of allowing him to be treated by a doctor or hospital that almost certainly would have cured him doesn't come close to the "faith of a mustard seed" that Jesus was talking about.

Thanks for clearing that up.

 

[Duckybill]

Of course. Because keeping your near-death child home to pray for him instead of allowing him to be treated by a doctor or hospital that almost certainly would have cured him doesn't come close to the "faith of a mustard seed" that Jesus was talking about.

Thanks for clearing that up.

Millions of people have died BECAUSE they went to doctors.

 

[Foreigner]

Yet that well-beyond "faith of a mustard seed" didn't save their child...

 

[Duckybill]

Yet that well-beyond "faith of a mustard seed" didn't save their child...

So who's to blame? God or parents? If God promised healing then it must be true.

 

[Foreigner]

So you are saying that parents why chose to keep their child away from doctors and hospitals in order to let God heal him.....didn't show, at minimum, the faith of a mustard seed?

 

[Duckybill]

So you are saying that parents why chose to keep their child away from doctors and hospitals in order to let God heal him.....didn't show, at minimum, the faith of a mustard seed?

No. I am saying that if God promised healing then it must be true. If not, then neither is John 3:16.

 

[Foreigner]

No. I am saying that if God promised healing then it must be true. If not, then neither is John 3:16.

"For God so loved the world that he gave His only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life." - John 3:16


-- The devil believes in God. Is he then saved?
Many people believe in God and state they hate Him. Are they saved?

 

[Duckybill]

"For God so loved the world that he gave His only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life." - John 3:16

-- The devil believes in God. Is he then saved?
Many people believe in God and state they hate Him. Are they saved?

Of course not. What does that have to do with God's integrity? Did God promise healing? Did God promise forgiveness? Did God promise protection? Either His promises are always true or not, regardless of what any person does. What we do or don't do has no effect on God's promises.

 

[Foreigner]

But it says, "whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish, but have everlasting life."

Is that incorrect? Doesn't it say that believing in Jesus is enough for everlasting life?

What we do or don't do has no effect on God's promises.

-- So those parents who kept their child home and prayed for his healing instead of taking him to a doctor or a hospital.....it ISN'T their fault the child died because it "has no effect on God's promises."

Wow. Then whose fault was it the child died?





.

 

[Duckybill]

But it says, "whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish, but have everlasting life."

Is that incorrect? Doesn't it say that believing in Jesus is enough for everlasting life?

Yes indeed it is true, but if we cannot believe all of His promises are true then how can we believe any are true?

 

[Foreigner]

Yes indeed it is true, but if we cannot believe all of His promises are true then how can we believe any are true?

-- So you are saying then that if you just believe in Jesus, you are saved. After all, that is what is promised, no?





http://www.christianityboard.com/index.php?app=forums&module=forums&section=findpost&pid=106014"What we do or don't do has no effect on God's promises." - Ducky

-- So those parents who kept their child home and prayed for his healing instead of taking him to a doctor or a hospital.....it ISN'T their fault the child died because it "has no effect on God's promises."

Wow. Then whose fault was it the child died?

 

[Duckybill]

-- So you are saying then that if you just believe in Jesus, you are saved. After all, that is what is promised, no?

That is true initially. But we must study His Word to learn His will for us.

"What we do or don't do has no effect on God's promises." - Ducky

-- So those parents who kept their child home and prayed for his healing instead of taking him to a doctor or a hospital.....it ISN'T their fault the child died because it "has no effect on God's promises."

Wow. Then whose fault was it the child died?

Nothing that happens can affect God's promises. They are still true. You can theorize all you like.

 

[Foreigner]

That is true initially. But we must study His Word to learn His will for us.

-- But that is not what the scripture says. It says all that is required is that the person "believe."

Nothing that happens can affect God's promises. They are still true. You can theorize all you like.

-- So, according to you, a lack of faith should not affect God's promises...

But according to James "a double-minded man" is "unstable in all his ways." He says, "let not that man think that he shall receive anything of the Lord;"

So, according to you, James is wrong. Interesting...




.

 

[Duckybill]

-- But that is not what the scripture says. It says all that is required is that the person "believe."

Have you read the rest of the NT?

Luke 6:46 (NKJV)
[sup]46 [/sup]"But why do you call Me 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do the things which I say?

-- So, according to you, a lack of faith should not affect God's promises...

They are true, regardless. Faith or unbelief affects each person, but not God.

But according to James "a double-minded man" is "unstable in all his ways." He says, "let not that man think that he shall receive anything of the Lord;"

So, according to you, James is wrong. Interesting...

That affects the person, not God's promises.

 

[Butch5]

Self defence is not murder.

1) If there is a suicide bomber running towards you and your family and you see a gun...do you shoot him or leave him to blow up which results in your kids going to hospital, your wife to heaven and you paralyzed?

2) If you had the opportunity to kill Hitler, knowing what he had done / was doing / and planned to do.....would you?

3) If your wife was being raped by a guy bigger then you, who just knocked you to the floor...and the only way you could stop him was to pick up his sawn-off shotgun and shoot him, would you?

The difference between the OT and the NT is that God's laws are written on our hearts...we now need to consider the heart of God in every decision we make...regarding helping the weak (kurds) from the strong (Saddam) there is ABSOLUTELY nothing wrong with that! If anything there should be a special reward in heaven for those who helped out!

You can present many different scenarios, the bottom line is, will we obey Christ or not? You see there are some serious issues here that should be dealt with. I suppose you pray to God for healing for your friends and family when they are ill. Does God have the power to cure disease? I suspect you would say yes, as most Christians pray for the healing of their friends and family. If God can cure disease can't He also protect my family and your family? Does God need my help to protect my family or can He handle it on His own? You see taking action, such as grabbing the shotgun show a lack of faith in God.

I think Christians should really look at this issue because it really does show their faith in God. So many Christians pray for healing yet when the issue of self defense come up they are so willing to grab a gun. What does that say? Well, for one thing it shows that Christians turn to God when what they want is beyond their control, yet when there is something they can act on they don't turn to God.

Why would you think that God could heal your family yet not think He can protect them? And, if you do think He can protect them, then why would you grab the shotgun and shoot the guy, disobeying Christ's command?

You see, we need to be like Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego.

Daniel 3:16-18 ( KJV )
Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, answered and said to the king, O Nebuchadnezzar, we are not careful to answer thee in this matter.
If it be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace, and he will deliver us out of thine hand, O king.
[b]But if not[/b], be it known unto thee, O king, that we will not serve thy gods, nor worship the golden image which thou hast set up.

In other words, But it not, we "Will Not" disobey our God. You see they knew that God was able to save them, but if He chose not to, they were willing to die rather than disobey God. Where is this devotion in the modern American Christan? No, they would rather for the most part, pick up the shot gun and defend themselves. That is not what Jesus taught His disciples. He said, turn the other cheek, do good to those who persecute you, do not return evil for evil.

 

[KingJ]

You can present many different scenarios, the bottom line is, will we obey Christ or not? You see there are some serious issues here that should be dealt with. I suppose you pray to God for healing for your friends and family when they are ill. Does God have the power to cure disease? I suspect you would say yes, as most Christians pray for the healing of their friends and family. If God can cure disease can't He also protect my family and your family? Does God need my help to protect my family or can He handle it on His own? You see taking action, such as grabbing the shotgun show a lack of faith in God. I think Christians should really look at this issue because it really does show their faith in God. So many Christians pray for healing yet when the issue of self defense come up they are so willing to grab a gun. What does that say? Well, for one thing it shows that Christians turn to God when what they want is beyond their control, yet when there is something they can act on they don't turn to God. Why would you think that God could heal your family yet not think He can protect them? And, if you do think He can protect them, then why would you grab the shotgun and shoot the guy, disobeying Christ's command? You see, we need to be like Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego. Daniel 3:16-18 ( KJV ) Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, answered and said to the king, O Nebuchadnezzar, we are not careful to answer thee in this matter. If it be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace, and he will deliver us out of thine hand, O king. [b]But if not[/b], be it known unto thee, O king, that we will not serve thy gods, nor worship the golden image which thou hast set up. In other words, But it not, we "Will Not" disobey our God. You see they knew that God was able to save them, but if He chose not to, they were willing to die rather than disobey God. Where is this devotion in the modern American Christan? No, they would rather for the most part, pick up the shot gun and defend themselves. That is not what Jesus taught His disciples. He said, turn the other cheek, do good to those who persecute you, do not return evil for evil.

:) I cannot disagree with you, you are correct...but only if we are 100% inline with God's will and in tune with The Holy Spirit....which is not always the case and hence we are required to use our logical minds to apply logical as ''Christian as possible'' guidelines to these types of situations should God not intervene.

As a precedent for God and preachers to set, not to kill is good just as we should pray for everyone without doubt that they will get healed.

The practical solutions are:

Re healing: If your kids are sick, pray for them to get healed, if God doesnt heal them after 1 prayer (God is not deaf), take them to the hospital. (In the meantime try fasting and praying to get more inline with God's will / in the spirit)

Re War: Pray for Saddam that God changes his heart. If God deosnt, remove him from power asap, before he hurts anyone else.

Re a rapist caught in the act: Pray immediately (like 2 seconds) for God to intervene and take vengeance, if God doesnt, do what you can to stop him...even if it means killing him.

Conclusion:

Jesus healed everyone He prayed for because He was in the perfect will of God / He walked 100% with the Holy Spirit...Jesus could call 1000 angels to take out an evil dictator....we can to...but not as often (if ever) as Jesus...as we ARE NOT always (if ever :))100% in the spirit and alighned with God's will...hence Christian common sense is required...God gave us a brain....and Christians should have the ''clearest'' thinking logical minds...hence why Paul says if anyone should make laws it is us.

 

[Butch5]

:) I cannot disagree with you, you are correct...but only if we are 100% inline with God's will and in tune with The Holy Spirit....which is not always the case and hence we are required to use our logical minds to apply logical as ''Christian as possible'' guidelines to these types of situations should God not intervene.

As a precedent for God and preachers to set, not to kill is good just as we should pray for everyone without doubt that they will get healed.

The practical solutions are:

Re healing: If your kids are sick, pray for them to get healed, if God doesnt heal them after 1 prayer (God is not deaf), take them to the hospital. (In the meantime try fasting and praying to get more inline with God's will / in the spirit)

Re War: Pray for Saddam that God changes his heart. If God deosnt, remove him from power asap, before he hurts anyone else.

Re a rapist caught in the act: Pray immediately (like 2 seconds) for God to intervene and take vengeance, if God doesnt, do what you can to stop him...even if it means killing him.

Conclusion:

Jesus healed everyone He prayed for because He was in the perfect will of God / He walked 100% with the Holy Spirit...Jesus could call 1000 angels to take out an evil dictator....we can to...but not as often (if ever) as Jesus...as we ARE NOT always (if ever :))100% in the spirit and alighned with God's will...hence Christian common sense is required...God gave us a brain....and Christians should have the ''clearest'' thinking logical minds...hence why Paul says if anyone should make laws it is us.

Jesus didn't say but or except, He said do not return evil for evil, bless them that persecute you, He said love your enemies. He didn't say love your enemies unless God doesn't answer your prayer the way you want it answered. No matter how much Christians may not like it, there simply are "NO" exceptions, he said don't.