Is it ok for a Christian to kill people?

[Foreigner]

Jesus didn't say but or except, He said do not return evil for evil, bless them that persecute you, He said love your enemies. He didn't say love your enemies unless God doesn't answer your prayer the way you want it answered. No matter how much Christians may not like it, there simply are "NO" exceptions, he said don't.

-- God's message was about not seeking revenge or stooping to the level of your enemies or those that persecute you. Not repaying evil with evil.

Saving yourself or a loved one from a murderous attack is NOT repaying evil with evil.

It says NOTHING negative about defending your own life of the lives of your family against those trying to kill you or them.

I feel sorry for the family members of those whose family head would stand by and watched them cleaved to death instead of intervening to save their lives.

I would go so far as to say those are not fit parents.

 

[Thankful 1]

-- God's message was about not seeking revenge or stooping to the level of your enemies or those that persecute you. Not repaying evil with evil.

Saving yourself or a loved one from a murderous attack is NOT repaying evil with evil.

It says NOTHING negative about defending your own life of the lives of your family against those trying to kill you or them.

I feel sorry for the family members of those whose family head would stand by and watched them cleaved to death instead of intervening to save their lives.

I would go so far as to say those are not fit parents.

Who told you that God's message was about: “not seeking revenge or stooping to the level of your enemies or those that persecute you.”?



Paul expanded on what Jesus said, but Jesus told us: (Matthew 5:39) “You have learnt how it was said: ‘Eye for eye and tooth for tooth.’ But I say this to you: offer the wicked man no resistance.”



Have you ever looked up to see what the Early Christian Church taught about this subject?



You should know that the Christians who knew Jesus first were pacifists. Christians were pacifists, until Constantine the Great corrupted the Church, and the Church has suffered ever sense.

 

[Foreigner]

Nice post. Unfortunately it negates nothing of what I said.


A 'pacifist' doesn't mean that you stand by and watch someone murder your children in order to rob your house.




.

 

[Thankful 1]

Nice post. Unfortunately it negates nothing of what I said.

I asked you a question, and you did not answer. Is that because it was not God who gave to you the understanding of what Jesus said?



You are attempting to lead Christians in their walk with God, and when asked what your source of knowledge comes from you ignore the question. Why then should anyone ever accept what you say about God?

 

[Foreigner]

I asked you a question, and you did not answer. Is that because it was not God who gave to you the understanding of what Jesus said?



You are attempting to lead Christians in their walk with God, and when asked what your source of knowledge comes from you ignore the question. Why then should anyone ever accept what you say about God?

-- I have already pointed out your error. You said, "He said do not return evil for evil, bless them that persecute you, He said love your enemies." and I pointed out that does apply to defending your own life of the lives of your children.


It is like saying, "The scripture says God will deliver me from ruin" so you don't leave your flooding home or take rides from your neighbors, the sheriff's dept, or the National Guard when they offer help.


Then when you die and stand before God and demand to know why He didn't deliver you as promised, He will say, "I tried! I sent your neighbors, the sheriff's dept, the National Guard..."


What you are saying is like saying you shouldn't take your two-year-old with 103 degree temperature to the emergency room at 3:00am because Jesus states, "I will heal those who call upon me."


Your interpretation - incorrect as it is - is that God doesn't want you to stop someone who is about to cleave your family to death with an ax in order to steal your flat screen.


There is a difference between offering no resistance when someone wants to persecute you or kill you because of your faith. (Indeed, there is a great reward for those who must face this), and offering no resistance while your wife is raped and children are murdered.


I must say I pity your family...

 

[Duckybill]

"Love your enemies." "Do good to those who hate you."

 

[KingJ]

Jesus didn't say but or except, He said do not return evil for evil, bless them that persecute you, He said love your enemies. He didn't say love your enemies unless God doesn't answer your prayer the way you want it answered. No matter how much Christians may not like it, there simply are "NO" exceptions, he said don't.

Self defence is NOT returning evil for evil.

So are we to love Saddam and his supporters and not the Kurds?

We do love Saddam and his supporters...but are unable to show our love to them while they are busy killing / raping / torturing/ gassing Kurds...so a logical brain tells me....for all to see the love of Christ...I need to pray for angels to help....angels don't help...then I need to assume God wants me to sort it out with the tools He has given me (brain, hands)...I do this...and it will very likely result in many dying....but at the end of the day...my enemies will be able to live in peace and I will be able to bless them....and show them the love and mercy of God.

Sitting in your cosy tv room watching people suffer...when you have the means to help....is not Christianity! it is more satanism.
The devil will sit and watch you suffer, Jesus won't!

If a poor man comes and asks for bread....do you ignore him and pray for him....or do you give him bread / teach him to fish?

Your logic is in line with Christians who don't take there kids to hospital because they are praying and fasting for healing....believing and holding onto scriptures literally...not even trying to understand them in context....just like pharisees who Jesus accuses of not even seeing how all the scriptures pointed to Him.

Why did Jesus have to fast for 40days? He had to get into spiritual shape so that He could hear The Holy Spirit 100% clearly....if we are not 100% in tune with The Holy Spirit it can and will happen that we will find ourselves in positions where God does not send angels, God does not send money from heaven (make the honey jar never go empty), God does send instant healing.....but that He has to help us in other ways...namely....army, unemployment insurance and hospitals.

I think the real debate here is between doers of the word and talkers.
Helping the weak is being a doer! sitting at home praying...and watching God do nothing because you arent as close to the Holy Spirit as you need to be...makes you a talker.

 

[Duckybill]

Self defence is NOT returning evil for evil.

It is disobedience to Jesus. It is sin.

"Do not resist the evil person."

So are we to love Saddam and his supporters and not the Kurds?

No, love them all.

We do love Saddam and his supporters...but are unable to show our love to them while they are busy killing / raping / torturing/ gassing Kurds...so a logical brain tells me....for all to see the love of Christ...I need to pray for angels to help....angels don't help...then I need to assume God wants me to sort it out with the tools He has given me (brain, hands)...I do this...and it will very likely result in many dying....but at the end of the day...my enemies will be able to live in peace and I will be able to bless them....and show them the love and mercy of God.

Your mistake is assuming.

Sitting in your cosy tv room watching people suffer...when you have the means to help....is not Christianity! it is more satanism.
The devil will sit and watch you suffer, Jesus won't!

There are no valid excuses for killing anyone. That is "satanism".

If a poor man comes and asks for bread....do you ignore him and pray for him....or do you give him bread / teach him to fish?

What does that have to do with killing people?

Your logic is in line with Christians who don't take there kids to hospital because they are praying and fasting for healing....believing and holding onto scriptures literally...not even trying to understand them in context....just like pharisees who Jesus accuses of not even seeing how all the scriptures pointed to Him.

What does that have to do with killing people?

Why did Jesus have to fast for 40days? He had to get into spiritual shape so that He could hear The Holy Spirit 100% clearly....if we are not 100% in tune with The Holy Spirit it can and will happen that we will find ourselves in positions where God does not send angels, God does not send money from heaven (make the honey jar never go empty), God does send instant healing.....but that He has to help us in other ways...namely....army, unemployment insurance and hospitals.

I think the real debate here is between doers of the word and talkers.
Helping the weak is being a doer! sitting at home praying...and watching God do nothing because you arent as close to the Holy Spirit as you need to be...makes you a talker.

Are you a doer? Or just a talker?

"Do not resist the evil person."

So when God doesn't answer your prayers you just start killing? You should be finding out why God doesn't answer your prayers.

 

[Thankful 1]

-- I have already pointed out your error. You said, "He said do not return evil for evil, bless them that persecute you, He said love your enemies." and I pointed out that does apply to defending your own life of the lives of your children.


It is like saying, "The scripture says God will deliver me from ruin" so you don't leave your flooding home or take rides from your neighbors, the sheriff's dept, or the National Guard when they offer help.


Then when you die and stand before God and demand to know why He didn't deliver you as promised, He will say, "I tried! I sent your neighbors, the sheriff's dept, the National Guard..."


What you are saying is like saying you shouldn't take your two-year-old with 103 degree temperature to the emergency room at 3:00am because Jesus states, "I will heal those who call upon me."


Your interpretation - incorrect as it is - is that God doesn't want you to stop someone who is about to cleave your family to death with an ax in order to steal your flat screen.


There is a difference between offering no resistance when someone wants to persecute you or kill you because of your faith. (Indeed, there is a great reward for those who must face this), and offering no resistance while your wife is raped and children are murdered.


I must say I pity your family...

I amsorry because some how I am not able to convey to you what I am asking.



You tellme God does not want one to stop some one who is going to cleave his or her familyto death, and when I ask you how you know that to be true, you just say youtold me.



Your authorityis you? Who told you that what you sayis true?



I tellyou that Jesus personally told me that we were not to hurt/harm anyone for anyreason.



Scripture tells us: Matthew 5:39)“You have learnt how it was said: ‘Eye for eye and tooth for tooth.’ But I saythis to you: offer the wicked man no resistance.”



(Matthew 5:43-44) “You have learnt how it was said, you must love yourneighbor and hate your enemy, but I say this to you: love your enemies and prayfor those who persecute you.”

 

[KingJ]

So when God doesn't answer your prayers you just start killing? You should be finding out why God doesn't answer your prayers.

So...did you not pray for the Kurds? if you did, God didnt answer your prayers, they suffered for many years.

Did no-one in the ENTIRE WORLD pray for the kurds? because God DID NOT help them until He got Bush and Blair to step in with tanks.......

Please tell me...whay do YOU do when God does not answer your prayer?

YOUR WIFE is getting raped...and God doesnt answer your prayer to get immediate vengeance....you have no time to fast and pray...what do you do?

Your logic is 100% in line with someone that refuses to take the sick to the hospital. Rather let them suffer and die. Don't you see that?

 

[Duckybill]

So...did you not pray for the Kurds? if you did, God didnt answer your prayers, they suffered for many years.

Actually I didn't pray for them. Who are they?

Did no-one in the ENTIRE WORLD pray for the kurds? because God DID NOT help them until He got Bush and Blair to step in with tanks.......

Please tell me...whay do YOU do when God does not answer your prayer?

It's been a long time since God hasn't answered my prayers.

YOUR WIFE is getting raped...

No she isn't.

and God doesnt answer your prayer to get immediate vengeance....you have no time to fast and pray...what do you do?

But He does answer my prayers. Don't you pray this prayer daily? Don't you believe your prayers will be answered? If not, then why do you pray?

Luke 11:4 (NKJV)
[sup]4 [/sup] And do not lead us into temptation, But deliver us from the evil one.

Your logic is 100% in line with someone that refuses to take the sick to the hospital. Rather let them suffer and die. Don't you see that?

No, I don't see that. Millions have died BECAUSE they went to doctors. What's your point?

 

[Butch5]

-- God's message was about not seeking revenge or stooping to the level of your enemies or those that persecute you. Not repaying evil with evil.

Look at the contrast, Jesus contrasts evil for evil with an eye for an eye.. Under the Law it was even up if some killed they ere killed, Jesus is saying no more. That Law is not fro the Christian.

Saving yourself or a loved one from a murderous attack is NOT repaying evil with evil.

It says NOTHING negative about defending your own life of the lives of your family against those trying to kill you or them.

Actually Paul did.
Paul also gives us quite clear teaching on this issue in Romans 12-13. In these two chapters, Paul uses three different forms of the same Greek word, “ekdikos”. The English translations are, avenge, vengeance, and revenger.

Romans 12:4-21 ( KJV )
For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:
So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.
Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;
Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching;
Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that showeth mercy, with cheerfulness.
Let love be without dissimulation. Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good.
Be kindly affectioned one to another with brotherly love; in honour preferring one another;
Not slothful in business; fervent in spirit; serving the Lord;
Rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation; continuing instant in prayer;
Distributing to the necessity of saints; given to hospitality.
Bless them which persecute you: bless, and curse not.
Rejoice with them that do rejoice, and weep with them that weep.
Be of the same mind one toward another. Mind not high things, but condescend to men of low estate. Be not wise in your own conceits.
Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.
If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.
Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.
Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

Here Paul basically says the same thing as Jesus do not return evil for evil.

Now, is anyone going to say that Paul then turns around and contradicts in Chapter 13 what he said here? I don't think so; here, Paul is telling Christians how to live. We see that he gives them the same instructions that Jesus did. Love your enemies. Do good to those who persecute you. Remember, when Paul wrote Romans 13, it was the Roman government that was in charge. This is the authority that Paul said they should obey.

Romans 13:1-6 ( KJV )
Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.
For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God’s ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.
The first instance is in Romans 12:19.

Romans 12:19 ( KJV )
Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
The meaning here is,

Thayer’s Greek Definitions
G1556 ἐκδικέω ekdikeō Thayer Definition: 1) to vindicate one’s right, do one justice 1a) to protect, defend, one person from another 2) to avenge a thing 2a) to punish a person for a thing
Part of Speech: verb

Not to defend oneself or others. Then he gives the reason why in the same verse.
Also in verse 19 we have,

Romans 12:19 ( KJV )
Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
The meaning here is,

Thayer’s Greek Definitions
G1557 ἐκδίκησις ekdikēsis Thayer Definition: 1) a revenging, vengeance, punishment
Part of Speech: noun feminine
Strong’s Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries

G1557 ἐκδίκησις ekdikēsis ek-dik'-ay-sis From G1556; vindication, retribution:—(a-, re-) venge (-ance), punishment.

The word translated “Vengeance” is another form of the same Greek word.
His reason is because retribution or punishment belongs to God, not the Christian. In Chapter 13, Paul says that the powers that exist are instituted by God for the good of man. He also says that the one who resists that authority resists God and brings damnation on himself or herself. Paul says that these powers (governments) are God’s “revengers”, they administer justice. When Paul wrote this, he was speaking of the Roman government. There were no Christians in the Roman government; he was speaking of secular authorities. He had just told the Christians not to avenge themselves, but to leave place for God’s wrath. Here, Paul uses the third form of the word:

Thayer’s Greek Definitions
G1558 ἔκδικος ekdikos Thayer Definition: 1) without law and justice 2) exacting penalty from one 2a) an avenger, punisher Part of Speech: adjective

Strong’s Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries
G1558 ἔκδικος ekdikos ek'-dik-os From G1537 and G1349; carrying justice out, that is, a punisher:—a (re-) venger.

I feel sorry for the family members of those whose family head would stand by and watched them cleaved to death instead of intervening to save their lives.

So, you wold feel sorry for the one who is being protected by God? Why do you assume someone wold stand by and watch? Do you consider praying to be doing nothing?

I would go so far as to say those are not fit parents.

Would you say that of God? He let His Son die and didn't strike out and kill them.

Why do you feel God needs your help to protect your family? Whose help did He need when he protected Israel? Whose help did He need when He protected Daniel, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, David, and a host of others? Did God ask for men to help Him protect these men? God can deliver and entire army from the enemy but He needs your Help to protect your family?

 

[Butch5]

Self defence is NOT returning evil for evil.

According to Paul it is. See my post to Foreigner.

So are we to love Saddam and his supporters and not the Kurds?

This is not a Christians issue.

We do love Saddam and his supporters...but are unable to show our love to them while they are busy killing / raping / torturing/ gassing Kurds...so a logical brain tells me....for all to see the love of Christ...I need to pray for angels to help....angels don't help...then I need to assume God wants me to sort it out with the tools He has given me (brain, hands)...I do this...and it will very likely result in many dying....but at the end of the day...my enemies will be able to live in peace and I will be able to bless them....and show them the love and mercy of God.

There's your mistake, you assume. No need to assume, Jesus said don't repay evil for evil. Nowhere in the New Testament did Jesus or His apostles teach that Christians are to go about protecting others.

Please explain how killing someone is showing them the love and mercy of God.

Sitting in your cosy tv room watching people suffer...when you have the means to help....is not Christianity! it is more satanism.
The devil will sit and watch you suffer, Jesus won't!

First of all, let me ask you, is praying doing nothing? You said Jesus won't watch you suffer, didn't Jesus say Christians will suffer? Don't you think Jesus saw what happened to Peter, Paul, James and the rest of the apostles. don't you think Jesus saw the martyrs like Ignatius, Polycarp and Justin the Martyr?

If a poor man comes and asks for bread....do you ignore him and pray for him....or do you give him bread / teach him to fish?

Giving him a fish doesn't require breaking Christ's commands

Your logic is in line with Christians who don't take there kids to hospital because they are praying and fasting for healing....believing and holding onto scriptures literally...not even trying to understand them in context....just like pharisees who Jesus accuses of not even seeing how all the scriptures pointed to Him.

If you want to talk about context, I suggest you look at Jesus' words in context. It will become that the Christian is not to use violence. This was the understanding of those who were taught by Jesus and the apostles.

Why did Jesus have to fast for 40days? He had to get into spiritual shape so that He could hear The Holy Spirit 100% clearly....if we are not 100% in tune with The Holy Spirit it can and will happen that we will find ourselves in positions where God does not send angels, God does not send money from heaven (make the honey jar never go empty), God does send instant healing.....but that He has to help us in other ways...namely....army, unemployment insurance and hospitals

You've resorted to opinion.

I think the real debate here is between doers of the word and talkers.
Helping the weak is being a doer! sitting at home praying...and watching God do nothing because you're not as close to the Holy Spirit as you need to be...makes you a talker.

Are you serious? Exactly how close to the holy Spirit must one be? Helping the weak is fine as long as it doesn't break Christs commands. Should we help the poor man cheat on his wife? Wouldn't that make one a doer? I suppose you will answer no to this question. If so why is it OK to break one command and not anther?


Here's few quotes from those who were there.
The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 9
Aristides 125 A.D.
They do not worship idols (made) in the image of man; and whatsoever they would not that others should do unto them, they do not to others; and of the food which is consecrated to idols they do not eat, for they are pure. And their oppressors they appease (lit: comfort) and make them their friends; they do good to their enemies; and their women, O King, are pure as virgins, and their daughters are modest; and their men keep themselves from every unlawful union and from all uncleanness, in the hope of a recompense to come in the other world.

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 1

Justin Martyr 160 AD.
we who formerly used to murder one another do not only now refrain from making war upon our enemies,

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 1

Justin Martyr
and we who were filled with war, and mutual slaughter, and every wickedness, have each through the whole earth changed our warlike weapons,—our swords into ploughshares, and our spears into implements of tillage,—and we cultivate piety, righteousness, philanthropy, faith, and hope, which we have from the Father Himself through Him who was crucified;

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 2
Athenagoras 175 AD.
for we have learned, not only not to return blow for blow, nor to go to law with those who plunder and rob us, but to those who smite us on one side of the face to offer the other side also, and to those who take away our coat to give likewise our cloak. But, when we have surrendered our property, they plot against our very bodies and souls, pouring upon us wholesale charges of crimes of which we are guiltless even in thought, but which belong to these idle praters themselves, and to the whole tribe of those who are like them.

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 1
Irenaeus 180 AD.
the new covenant which brings back peace, and the law which gives life, has gone forth over the whole earth, as the prophets said: “For out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem; and He shall rebuke many people; and they shall break down their swords into ploughshares, and their spears into pruning-hooks, and they shall no longer learn to fight.”

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 1
Irenaeus
1. Moreover, this impious opinion of theirs with respect to actions—namely, that it is incumbent on them to have experience of all kinds of deeds, even the most abominable—is refuted by the teaching of the Lord, with whom not only is the adulterer rejected, but also the man who desires to commit adultery; (Matt. 5:21, etc.) and not only is the actual murderer held guilty of having killed another to his own damnation, but the man also who is angry with his brother without a cause: who commanded [His disciples] not only not to hate men, but also to love their enemies; and enjoined them not only not to swear falsely, but not even to swear at all; and not only not to speak evil of their neighbours, but not even to style any one “Raca” and “fool;” [declaring] that otherwise they were in danger of hell-fire; and not only not to strike, but even, when themselves struck, to present the other cheek [to those that maltreated them]; and not only not to refuse to give up the property of others, but even if their own were taken away, not to demand it back again from those that took it; and not only not to injure their neighbours, nor to do them any evil, but also, when themselves wickedly dealt with, to be long-suffering, and to show kindness towards those [that injured them], and to pray for them, that by means of repentance they might be saved—so that we should in no respect imitate the arrogance, lust, and pride of others.


The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 2
Clement of Alexandria
And an enemy must be aided, that he may not continue an enemy. For by help good feeling is compacted, and enmity dissolved.

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 2
Clement of Alexandria
Above all, Christians are not allowed to correct with violence the delinquencies of sins. For it is not those that abstain from wickedness from compulsion, but those that abstain from choice, that God crowns.

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 3
Tertullian 197 AD.
If we are enjoined, then, to love our enemies, as I have remarked above, whom have we to hate? If injured, we are forbidden to retaliate, lest we become as bad ourselves: who can suffer injury at our hands?

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 3
Tertullian
In short, the coming procession of a new law out of this “house of the God of Jacob” Isaiah in the ensuing words announces, saying, “For from Zion shall go out a law, and the word of the Lord out of Jerusalem, and shall judge among the nations,”—that is, among us, who have been called out of the nations,—“and they shall join to beat their glaives into ploughs, and their lances into sickles; and nations shall not take up glaive against nation, and they shall no more learn to fight.” (Isaiah 2:3-4) Who else, therefore, are understood but we, who, fully taught by the new law, observe these practices,—the old law being obliterated, the coming of whose abolition the action itself demonstrates? For the wont of the old law was to avenge itself by the vengeance of the glaive, and to pluck out “eye for eye,” and to inflict retaliatory revenge for injury. (compare Exodus 21:24-25; Leviticus 24:17-22; Deuteronomy 19:11-21; Matthew 5:38) But the new law’s wont was to point to clemency, and to convert to tranquillity the pristine ferocity of “glaives” and “lances,” and to remodel the pristine execution of “war” upon the rivals and foes of the law into the pacific actions of “ploughing” and “tilling” the land. Therefore as we have shown above that the coming cessation of the old law and of the carnal circumcision was declared, so, too, the observance of the new law and the spiritual circumcision has shone out into the voluntary obediences of peace.
The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 3
Tertullian
the Christian does no harm even to his foe

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 3
Tertullian
Nay, He puts His interdict on every sort of man-killing by that one summary precept, “Thou shalt not kill.”

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 4
Commodianus 240 A.D.
Many are the martyrdoms which are made without shedding of blood. Not to desire other men’s goods; to wish to have the benefit of martyrdom; to bridle the tongue, thou oughtest to make thyself humble; not willingly to use force, nor to return force used against thee, thou wilt be a patient mind, understand that thou art a martyr.

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 5
Cyprian
and that by this very fact they are invincible, that they do not fear death; that they do not in turn assail their assailants, since it is not lawful for the innocent even to kill the guilty;


The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 5
Cyprian
nor, after the Eucharist carried in it, is the hand spotted with the sword and blood.

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 6
Theonas of Alexandria 300 A.D.
And do thou, my dearest Lucianus, since thou art wise, bear with good-will the unwise; (2 Cor. 11:19) and they too may perchance become wise. Do no one an injury at any time, and provoke no one to anger. If an injury is done to you, look to Jesus Christ; and even as ye desire that He may remit your transgressions, do ye also forgive them theirs; (Mark 11:25) and then also shall ye do away with all ill-will, and bruise the head of that ancient serpent, (Rom. 16:20) who is ever on the watch with all subtlety to undo your good works and your prosperous attainments.

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 7
Lactantius 304-313 A.D.
But we, on the contrary, do not require that any one should be compelled, whether he is willing or unwilling, to worship our God, who is the God of all men; nor are we angry if any one does not worship Him. For we trust in the majesty of Him who has power to avenge contempt shown towards Himself, as also He has power to avenge the calamities and injuries inflicted on His servants. And therefore, when we suffer such impious things, we do not resist even in word; but we remit vengeance to God, not as they act who would have it appear that they are defenders of their gods, and rage without restraint against those who do not worship them

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 7
Lactantius
He also, having no pride or insolence, does not raise himself too highly, nor lift up his head with arrogance; but he is calm and peaceful, lowly and courteous, because he knows his own condition. Since, therefore, he does injury to none, nor desires the property of others, and does not even defend his own if it is taken from him by violence, since he knows how even to bear with moderation an injury inflicted upon him, because he is endued with virtue; it is necessary that the just man should be subject to the unjust, and that the wise should be insulted by the foolish, that the one may sin because he is unjust, and the other may have virtue in himself because he is just.

 

[Foreigner]

Actually Paul did.
Paul also gives us quite clear teaching on this issue in Romans 12-13. In these two chapters, Paul uses three different forms of the same Greek word, “ekdikos”. The English translations are, avenge, vengeance, and revenger.

-- Butch, you seem big on language, but you obviously do not understand the obvious difference between "avenge, vengeance, revenger" and "defend, save, protect."


If someone is going after my wife or child with an ax, my thought is on defense and protection...not vengeance.


However, if I come home and find my wife and child murdered and I go to hunt up the person who did it to punish them or exact revenge, then THAT is "avenge, vengeance, revenger."


A very simple but important distinction that totally and completely negates what you have said.


Again, self-defense is NOT returning evil for evil. That is a ridiculous idea and it assumes an implies that defending your wife or child means you have an 'unholy' motive. Give me a break.

Please explain how killing someone is showing them the love and mercy of God.

-- Please explain how standing by and watching your wife raped and your child murdered is showing them "the love and mercy of God?"


Is not risking my life for them a part of "no greater love hath someone than to lay down their life for a friend?"


And how is protecting someone from violation or certain death NOT showing mercy?




.

 

[Butch5]

-- Butch, you seem big on language, but you obviously do not understand the obvious difference between "avenge, vengeance, revenger" and "defend, save, protect."


If someone is going after my wife or child with an ax, my thought is on defense and protection...not vengeance.


However, if I come home and find my wife and child murdered and I go to hunt up the person who did it to punish them or exact revenge, then THAT is "avenge, vengeance, revenger."


A very simple but important distinction that totally and completely negates what you have said.


Again, self-defense is NOT returning evil for evil. That is a ridiculous idea and it assumes an implies that defending your wife or child means you have an 'unholy' motive. Give me a break.

You can argue against it if you like, that's your prerogative. However, I have shown from Paul's words and his usage of different Greek words from the same root that self defense is not allowed to the Christian. Paul chose the words that he did to make a point, whether today's Christians want to believe it or not.

-- Please explain how standing by and watching your wife raped and your child murdered is showing them "the love and mercy of God?"

You didn't answer my question, you simply posed a counter question.

Is not risking my life for them a part of "no greater love hath someone than to lay down their life for a friend?"

In context, Jesus was not speaking of breaking God's commands to do it.

And how is protecting someone from violation or certain death NOT showing mercy?

For one thing you are only showing mercy to the victim. What about the perpetrator? Jesus said that God is good to the unthankful and the evil.


Luke 6:27-36 ( KJV )
But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,
Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.
And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloak forbid not to take thy coat also.
Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.
And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.
For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them.
And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.
And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again.
But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.
Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.


You keep asking me these questions and I have answered, why won't you answer my questions?

Is praying doing nothing?

Does God need our help to protect our families?

If God can deliver an entire nation from their enemies can He deliver our family from an evil person?

The way I see it it boils down to this, either one doesn't believe God can do it, or they don't have faith that He will.

 

[Foreigner]

You can argue against it if you like, that's your prerogative. However, I have shown from Paul's words and his usage of different Greek words from the same root that self defense is not allowed to the Christian. Paul chose the words that he did to make a point, whether today's Christians want to believe it or not.

-- Simply pointing out where you are wrong by using facts is not "arguing against it".

I have read and reread your post on Paul's word. I would encourage you to do the same.

I will say it again because you either don't understand or choose to ignore it:

Pauls words about "avenge, vengeance, revenger" are NOT the same as "defend, save, protect."

If someone is attacking your family and the only way to save them is to kill that person, that is NOT "vengeance" or "avenging." That is "protecting" and "rescuing."
Simple English.

HOWEVER

If someone was to kill my family and I hunted them down to hurt or kill them, THEN that is "vengeance" or "avenging."

I am sorry that very obvious difference is lost on you.

You didn't answer my question, you simply posed a counter question.

-- No, I showed how silly your question was...

You asked, "Please explain how killing someone is showing them the love and mercy of God."
That implies that if you have to kill an ax-wielding killer to keep them from killing your wife and child, you have somehow not shown "the love and mercy of God."

That implies that leaving them alive and untouched to kill your family and to likely kill others is the best way to show, "the love and mercy of God."

By your standard then I can ask how you are not denying your wife and child "the love and mercy of God" by not protecting them?

You really need to think before you ask such questions.

For one thing you are only showing mercy to the victim. What about the perpetrator? Jesus said that God is good to the unthankful and the evil.

-- Again, a silly question. The 'perpetrator' is attempting to murder my family.
You imply that I should show him (and not my wife and daughter) mercy by letting him slaughter them and not raise a hand.

Do you have any idea how ridiculous that is?

Luke 6:27-36 ( KJV )
But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,
Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.
And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloak forbid not to take thy coat also.
Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.
And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.
For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them.
And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.
And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again.
But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.
Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.

-- Awesome scripture.

Unfortunately it does not pertain to the man trying to murder your family with an ax before your very eyes.

There is a huge difference between turning the other cheek and stopping someone from splitting your wife's head open with an ax.

If this meant what you are implying, then Paul was wrong every time he fled an area due to danger or persecution.

According to you he should have stayed there and been tortured or killed, and that leaving meant that he did not do what God required of him.

In essence, Paul disobeyed God.

Is praying doing nothing?

Does God need our help to protect our families?

If God can deliver an entire nation from their enemies can He deliver our family from an evil person?

The way I see it it boils down to this, either one doesn't believe God can do it, or they don't have faith that He will.

-- You really do not how to paint yourself into a corner, don't you.:lol:

According to this then Mary and Joseph had no need to flee to Egypt. After all, could almighty God not have protected them?

And again, with Paul. Why did he flee the city of Berea. Could the God you speak of not have protected him?



Do you REALLY not understand the simple fact that sometimes God exercises His will and His fulfillment through the hands of we His children?




This analogy is PERFECT for you:

A man's home is on a flood plain and water is rising rapidly.
His neighbors offer him a ride to safety in their car - he says no, not necessary. "The Lord will save me."
The water rises...
The county sheriff offers him a ride to safety in his boat - He says no. "The Lord will save me."
The water rises even further...
The National Guard offers him a ride to safety in their helicopter - same answer. "No, the Lord will save me."

Eventually the water covers his home and he drowns.
He stands before God and asks why God didn't save him.
God replies, "I tried! I sent your neighbors, the Sheriff, the National Guard..."

 

[th1b.taylor]

Butch5,
Foreigner is right and you have walked off the end of the pier and seem to be unaware of it. In the sixties I was paid to kill people, that was my profession at the time. Now, as bad as that sounds, I did not sin. Let me explain; I was a Professional Soldier, one of the men that folks of your ilk chose to falsely label as a Baby Killer and yes, I was spit on by people like yourself. But the truth of the matter is that without Christian People like myself that put themselves in Harm's Way, except that your parents be Pure Arlan, you would not be alive today. For that matter, when I killed a man, not murdered, I was working hard to fulfill my job's mission without losing my life and always to serve the good of all the people of South Vietnam and those Grunts that would have died without my completing my mission.

I have said it before and I'll say it again, King David was called, by God, a man after the heart of God! King David was also a man with bloody hands, just like mine. He was not allowed to build the Temple because of this, instead that honor was settled upon his son. And an even greater honor was bestowed upon King David, God came to the Earth in the body of a man and that man was a son of King David, many years after his death.

Now, please allow me to explain the word context, you young folks seem to have lost the understanding of context with all of these Revisionist teachings in our school systems today. When one looks at John 1:1-3 they learn that nothing exists in this World except Jesus, the Son of God, created it. Terefore Jesus is the God of the Old Testament as He is of the New Testament. To wrap your head around what I have to say here you must understand Malachi 3:6 because although He is accused of it, God "never" changes! For this reason He, being the inspiring agent for the writers of the scriptures has authored and is the author of the complete text and the text, from beginning to end is written for the purpose of salvation; that makes the entire Bible to be of one context.

My prayer is that this post helps you to understand what Foreigner has been saying to you, may God truly bless you!

 

[Butch5]

Butch5,
Foreigner is right and you have walked off the end of the pier and seem to be unaware of it. In the sixties I was paid to kill people, that was my profession at the time. Now, as bad as that sounds, I did not sin. Let me explain; I was a Professional Soldier, one of the men that folks of your ilk chose to falsely label as a Baby Killer and yes, I was spit on by people like yourself. But the truth of the matter is that without Christian People like myself that put themselves in Harm's Way, except that your parents be Pure Arlan, you would not be alive today. For that matter, when I killed a man, not murdered, I was working hard to fulfill my job's mission without losing my life and always to serve the good of all the people of South Vietnam and those Grunts that would have died without my completing my mission.

I have said it before and I'll say it again, King David was called, by God, a man after the heart of God! King David was also a man with bloody hands, just like mine. He was not allowed to build the Temple because of this, instead that honor was settled upon his son. And an even greater honor was bestowed upon King David, God came to the Earth in the body of a man and that man was a son of King David, many years after his death.

Now, please allow me to explain the word context, you young folks seem to have lost the understanding of context with all of these Revisionist teachings in our school systems today. When one looks at John 1:1-3 they learn that nothing exists in this World except Jesus, the Son of God, created it. Terefore Jesus is the God of the Old Testament as He is of the New Testament. To wrap your head around what I have to say here you must understand Malachi 3:6 because although He is accused of it, God "never" changes! For this reason He, being the inspiring agent for the writers of the scriptures has authored and is the author of the complete text and the text, from beginning to end is written for the purpose of salvation; that makes the entire Bible to be of one context.

My prayer is that this post helps you to understand what Foreigner has been saying to you, may God truly bless you!

My friend,

You'redoing the same, man justifications don't trump Scripture.

 

[Duckybill]

I have said it before and I'll say it again, King David was called, by God, a man after the heart of God! King David was also a man with bloody hands, just like mine.

David was not under the New Covenant.

Matthew 5:39 (NKJV)
[sup]39 [/sup]But I tell you not to resist an evil person.

Matthew 5:44 (NKJV)
[sup]44 [/sup]But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you,

 

[Butch5]

-- Simply pointing out where you are wrong by using facts is not "arguing against it".

I have read and reread your post on Paul's word. I would encourage you to do the same.

I will say it again because you either don't understand or choose to ignore it:

Pauls words about "avenge, vengeance, revenger" are NOT the same as "defend, save, protect."

If someone is attacking your family and the only way to save them is to kill that person, that is NOT "vengeance" or "avenging." That is "protecting" and "rescuing."
Simple English.

HOWEVER

If someone was to kill my family and I hunted them down to hurt or kill them, THEN that is "vengeance" or "avenging."

I am sorry that very obvious difference is lost on you.

It’s not lost on me; it’s simply not what the Scripture teach. It doesn’t really matter what the English words mean because Paul did not write in English. I showed you the definition of the Greek word translated avenge that Paul used. One of the definitions was to ‘Defend oneself or another’. That means that if you defend someone you are violating the command.
I know this goes against the American cowboy thinking but that it what Paul said.

-- No, I showed how silly your question was...

You asked, "Please explain how killing someone is showing them the love and mercy of God."
That implies that if you have to kill an ax-wielding killer to keep them from killing your wife and child, you have somehow not shown "the love and mercy of God."

Are you suggesting that killing them is showing love and mercy?

That implies that leaving them alive and untouched to kill your family and to likely kill others is the best way to show, "the love and mercy of God."

You are showing love and mercy by not killing them. However, it is not your place to kill. I’ll go back to the question you won’t answer.
Does God need you help to protect your family?
From your statements it seems to me that you either don’t believe that God will protect them or you don’t think He is capable of doing so.
I’ll ask again, is praying doing nothing?

By your standard then I can ask how you are not denying your wife and child "the love and mercy of God" by not protecting them?

You really need to think before you ask such questions.

We can protect them to the point that we break God’s command.
I have thought about this my friend, long and hard. You see this was probably the hardest issue for me to surrender. You see, used to be adamantly pro death penalty. As a matter of fact you could have called me extreme because I though that not only should murder get the death penalty, I also though that attempted murder should get the death penalty. I mean why should the guy get a break just because he failed to murder? His intent was to murder therefore he should get the death penalty. I also thought that rape should receive the death penalty. I was also pro war. My philosophy was just wipe them out and you won’t have to worry about them anymore. There is one thing though, I am also brutally honest, and when I went to a new church and found them teaching me things that were the exact opposite of thing other churches had taught me, I realized that I had to search these things out for myself. That began a process which lead me to seek the pristine faith. In doing so, I found that what is taught today as Christianity is very far removed from what was taught by Jesus and the apostles. So, I was faced with a problem, either ignore what I found, or change what I believed. As I said, I am brutally hones and I could not ignore what I found, whether I liked it or not. Over time and study I came to realize that the Scriptures and the historical evidence was against my pro death penalty, pro war position. Since I couldn’t ignore my findings the only option was to accept what I found and change what I believed. So, yes , my friend, I have thought long and hard about this and other doctrinal issues.

-- Again, a silly question. The 'perpetrator' is attempting to murder my family.
You imply that I should show him (and not my wife and daughter) mercy by letting him slaughter them and not raise a hand.

Do you have any idea how ridiculous that is?

If that scenario happened, is that what you would say to Jesus when you faced Him? Remember, God showed mercy when His Son was murdered.

-- Awesome scripture.

Unfortunately it does not pertain to the man trying to murder your family with an ax before your very eyes.

There is a huge difference between turning the other cheek and stopping someone from splitting your wife's head open with an ax.

If this meant what you are implying, then Paul was wrong every time he fled an area due to danger or persecution.

According to you he should have stayed there and been tortured or killed, and that leaving meant that he did not do what God required of him.

In essence, Paul disobeyed God.

Not at all my friend, you won’t find a post of mine that says one must stand there and be slaughtered. Jesus said to His disciples ‘when they persecute you flee’. Paul did nothing but follow what Jesus said.
My friend, these kinds of statements show a lack of faith in God. Is He able to protect His own or not? You statements seem to indicate to me that you don’t think He is able.

-- You really do not how to paint yourself into a corner, don't you.

According to this then Mary and Joseph had no need to flee to Egypt. After all, could almighty God not have protected them?

And again, with Paul. Why did he flee the city of Berea. Could the God you speak of not have protected him?

No corners my friend. Mary and Joseph had to go to fulfill prophecy. However, the answer is yes God could protect them, however, He told them to flee. Have you considered that that was His protection?
Likewise with Paul, he fled per Jesus instructions.
No one is suggesting that you present you family to the ax wielding murderer, only that you not use force against him. You’ve already given the answer, flee.

Do you REALLY not understand the simple fact that sometimes God exercises His will and His fulfillment through the hands of we His children?

No my friend, God does not use the Christian to exact vengeance. You won’t find an example or command to that effect in the New Covenant.

This analogy is PERFECT for you:

A man's home is on a flood plain and water is rising rapidly.
His neighbors offer him a ride to safety in their car - he says no, not necessary. "The Lord will save me."
The water rises...
The county sheriff offers him a ride to safety in his boat - He says no. "The Lord will save me."
The water rises even further...
The National Guard offers him a ride to safety in their helicopter - same answer. "No, the Lord will save me."

Eventually the water covers his home and he drowns.
He stands before God and asks why God didn't save him.
God replies, "I tried! I sent your neighbors, the Sheriff, the National Guard..."

A quaint little story, however, it does not change the Scriptures. Has it not become evident yet, that you are arguing your entire argument without Scripture? You are simply giving me extreme situations that you will probably never face. You’ve given me man made rationalizations, I given you Scripture. As I said before I know this is not popular with the American Christian, it is however, what Jesus taught, what the apostles taught, and what the church taught for at least the first 250-300 years. Christians didn’t start going to war until the 4th century, after the church had merged with the Roman empire. That’s because those initial Christians held to what they were taught, they did not compromise, not even to save their own lives.