Is Lying Ever Right?

[rdventen]

The Hebrew midwives lied to save the baby boys Pharaoh had commanded them to kill (Exod. 1:19). Rahab lied to save the lives of the Jewish spies in Jericho (Josh. 2).

(1) Lying is neither right nor wrong: There are no laws. Antinomianism[sup]9[/sup] claims that lying to save lives is neither right nor wrong. It insists that there are no objective moral principles by which the issue can be judged right or wrong. The issue must be decided on subjective, personal, or pragmatic grounds, but not on any objective moral grounds. We are without any moral laws whatsoever to guide us in our decision on this or any other moral issue(2) Lying is generally wrong: There are no universal laws. Generalism[sup]10[/sup] claims that lying is generally wrong. In specific cases, however, this general rule can be broken. Since there are no universal moral laws, whether a given lie is right will depend on the results. If the results are good, then the lie is right. Most generalists believe that lying to save a life is right because in this case the end justifies the means.(3) Lying is sometimes right: There is only one universal law. Situationism,[sup]11[/sup] such as that held by Joseph Fletcher, claims there is only one absolute moral law — and it is not truth-telling.[sup]12[/sup] Love is the only absolute, and lying may be the loving thing to do. In fact, lying to save a life is the loving thing to do. Hence, lying is sometimes right. Any moral rule except love can and at times should be broken for love’s sake. Everything else is relative.(4) Lying is always wrong: There are many nonconflicting laws. Unqualified absolutism,[sup]13[/sup] such as was taught by St. Augustine, claims there are many absolute moral laws, and none of them should ever be broken.[sup]14[/sup] Truth is such a law. Therefore, one must always tell the truth, even if someone dies as a result of it. Truth is absolute, and absolutes cannot be broken. Therefore, there are no exceptions to telling the truth. Results are never used to break rules, even if the results are very desirable.(5) Lying is forgivable: There are many conflicting laws. Conflicting absolutism[sup]15[/sup] recognizes that we live in an evil world where absolute moral laws sometimes run into inevitable conflict. The German theologian Helmut Thielicke espoused this view.[sup]16[/sup] The conflicting absolutist insists that in unavoidable conflicts it is our moral duty to do the lesser evil. That is, we must break the lesser law and plead mercy. For instance, we should lie to save a life and then ask for forgiveness for breaking God’s absolute moral law. Our moral dilemmas are sometimes unavoidable, but we are culpable anyway. God cannot change His absolute moral prescriptions because of our moral predicaments.(6) Lying is sometimes right: There are higher laws. Graded absolutism,[sup]17[/sup] such as this author holds, insists there are many moral absolutes and they sometimes conflict. However, some laws are higher than others, so when there is an unavoidable conflict it is our duty to follow the higher moral law. God does not blame us for what we could not avoid. Thus He exempts us from responsibility to follow the lower law in view of the overriding obligation to obey the higher law.

 

[gumby]

Lying is wrong on evry level. The whole point in Exodus is in Exodus 1:21 god was pleased with the midwifes because they feared him not because they lied. In fact god is not pleased with any form of sin and Revelation 21:8 makes it crystal clear where liers end up.

 

[rdventen]

Lying is wrong on evry level. The whole point in Exodus is in Exodus 1:21 god was pleased with the midwifes because they feared him not because they lied. In fact god is not pleased with any form of sin and Revelation 21:8 makes it crystal clear where liers end up.

What would you do if the life of your kids depended on you lying to someone about where you hid them.

 

[whirlwind]

What would you do if the life of your kids depended on you lying to someone about where you hid them.

I would.....

LIE​

Those are your enemies that seek to harm you or your children...your enemies! Of course you, and I, would lie to protect them. I actually feel God protects them and us from our enemies and the opportunity for them to harm us won't be met with the necessity to lie but to answer your hypothetical question....I would say yes, I would lie.

In [Rev.21:8].....and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone; which is the second death," is properly translated....all the false, "pseudes." The false prophets, the liars in that verse, are mentioned.....

Revelation 2:2 I know thy works, and thy labour and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil, and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:

Acts 6:13 And set up false witnesses, which said, "This man ceaseth not to speak blasphemous words against this holy place, and the law:​

Those are the "liars" that are included with the abominable, murderers and idolaters....and they are not those that protect loved ones from evil ones.

 

[jerryjohnson]

What would you do if the life of your kids depended on you lying to someone about where you hid them.

I will answer by asking a question. What is the goal: To live in the flesh forever or live with the Father for eternity? What is the worst thing that could happen in your hypothetical situation and your children were discovered?


Look at arunangelo's post: http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/11879-why-is-suffering-redemptive/page__pid__79879__st__0&#entry79879

 

[jerryjohnson]

I would.....

LIE​

Those are your enemies that seek to harm you or your children...your enemies! Of course you, and I, would lie to protect them. I actually feel God protects them and us from our enemies and the opportunity for them to harm us won't be met with the necessity to lie but to answer your hypothetical question....I would say yes, I would lie.

In [Rev.21:8].....and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone; which is the second death," is properly translated....all the false, "pseudes." The false prophets, the liars in that verse, are mentioned.....

Revelation 2:2 I know thy works, and thy labour and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil, and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:

Acts 6:13 And set up false witnesses, which said, "This man ceaseth not to speak blasphemous words against this holy place, and the law:​

Those are the "liars" that are included with the abominable, murderers and idolaters....and they are not those that protect loved ones from evil ones.

whirlwind, "In [Rev.21:8].....and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth ...."

Scripture will not let you have it both ways. Again I ask, what is the goal?

 

[whirlwind]

whirlwind, "In [Rev.21:8].....and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth ...."

Scripture will not let you have it both ways. Again I ask, what is the goal?

Jerry....did you not read my post that you quoted in your reply? It explained the "all liars"

 

[jerryjohnson]

Jerry....did you not read my post that you quoted in your reply? It explained the "all liars"

Yes I read your post and it seemed to be going both ways.

 

[whirlwind]

Yes I read your post and it seemed to be going both ways.

Then I didn't explain it very well for it only means one thing. The "liars" written of, the "all liars" of [Rev.21:8] going into the lake of fire, aren't liars as those used in the example given by Rdventen. They are the "all false" witnesses to the word of the Lord. False prophets, false teachers, false preachers, false pastors, false priest. Those that purposely twist His Word and it becomes a lie.

Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Liars #5572 ~ pseudodi, a spurious teacher, i.e. propagator of errorneous Chr. doctrine: - false teacher.​

 

[sniper762]

abraham lied by saying sarah, his wife, was his sister. later on i think his son did likewise

 

[Brother Mike]

Because we see lying in examples in the Bible, does not make it right. I have to Agree with JerryJohnson on this.

The Devil is a liar, and father of it. I see no reason to follow after the enemy.

The Post started off by pointing out that Rehab lied. Some use that to justify lying (When it suits them)

I guess it's OK to lie sometimes, just like is OK to be a Whore sometimes. Right?????????????


AS for the Lie to protect your Children situation.............................. I got something else better............ It's called the Word of God.

Isa 54:17 No weapon formed against your shall prosper................
Luke 10:19 Nothing by any means shall hurt you (Jesus said that!!!)
Isa 54:13-14 Great shall be the peace of your Children, and terror shall not come near you.
Psalm 91 (Whole Chapter)

We don't need the tools of the devil to overcome anything. Where is your faith.................

Jesus Is Lord.

 

[gumby]

Because we see lying in examples in the Bible, does not make it right. I have to Agree with JerryJohnson on this.

The Devil is a liar, and father of it. I see no reason to follow after the enemy.

The Post started off by pointing out that Rehab lied. Some use that to justify lying (When it suits them)

I guess it's OK to lie sometimes, just like is OK to be a Whore sometimes. Right?????????????


AS for the Lie to protect your Children situation.............................. I got something else better............ It's called the Word of God.

Isa 54:17 No weapon formed against your shall prosper................
Luke 10:19 Nothing by any means shall hurt you (Jesus said that!!!)
Isa 54:13-14 Great shall be the peace of your Children, and terror shall not come near you.
Psalm 91 (Whole Chapter)

We don't need the tools of the devil to overcome anything. Where is your faith.................

Jesus Is Lord.

Very good post brother mike, keep up the good work

 

[jiggyfly]

Good topic and some good posts. Has anyone considered this scripture? What do you think of it?

Then Micaiah continued, "Listen to what the LORD says! I saw the LORD sitting on his throne with all the armies of heaven around him, on his right and on his left. And the LORD said, `Who can entice Ahab to go into battle against Ramoth-gilead so that he can be killed there?' There were many suggestions,until finally a spirit approached the LORD and said, `I can do it!'" `How will you do this?' the LORD asked. "And the spirit replied, `I will go out and inspire all Ahab's prophets to speak lies.' " `You will succeed,' said the LORD. `Go ahead and do it.' "So you see, the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouths of your prophets. For the LORD has determined disaster for you." 1Kings 22:19-23

 

[whirlwind]

Because we see lying in examples in the Bible, does not make it right. I have to Agree with JerryJohnson on this.

The Devil is a liar, and father of it. I see no reason to follow after the enemy.

The Post started off by pointing out that Rehab lied. Some use that to justify lying (When it suits them)

I guess it's OK to lie sometimes, just like is OK to be a Whore sometimes. Right?????????????


AS for the Lie to protect your Children situation.............................. I got something else better............ It's called the Word of God.

Isa 54:17 No weapon formed against your shall prosper................
Luke 10:19 Nothing by any means shall hurt you (Jesus said that!!!)
Isa 54:13-14 Great shall be the peace of your Children, and terror shall not come near you.
Psalm 91 (Whole Chapter)

We don't need the tools of the devil to overcome anything. Where is your faith.................

Jesus Is Lord.

The question was....."What would you do if the life of your kids depended on you lying to someone about where you hid them." Do I believe He protects us? Yes I do for He has. Would I lie? Yes I would to protect another person and I have great faith. As shown the liars thrown in the lake of fire are not those that lie to protect others. They are the false prophets. The two cannot be compared. It would be as comparing one that steals a loaf of bread to feed his family with a Bernie Madoff. Is stealing good? No. Is lying good? No. And, as I wrote previously I don't believe that choice would ever have to be made for He does protect us...as shown in the wonderful quotes you provided.

However, in the Isaiah passages it could be speaking of our "children being taught," and having "great peace," in the next age.

Isaiah 54:12-14 And I will make thy windows of agates, and thy gates of carbuncles, and all thy borders of pleasant stones. And all thy children shall be taught of the LORD; and great shall be the peace of thy children. In righteousness shalt thou be established: thou shalt be far from oppression; for thou shalt not fear: and from terror; for it shall not come near thee.

54:15-17 Behold, they shall surely gather together, but not by Me: whosoever shall gather together against thee shall fall for thy sake. Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy. No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD, and their righteousness is of Me, saith the LORD.​

The "heritage of the servants of the LORD" is to sit in judgment when this age ends. Weapons formed against us presently do prosper for the ungodly and there is terror (terrorism) in this flesh life. It's the time of the Gentiles but it will soon end.

 

[sniper762]

a lie is not a lie unless its from the heart.

it seems that the bible condoned abraham's "little white lie" after all, he was god's favored one.

i feel that he showed an intelligent way of protecting himself in a hostile situation. i dont think that god held anything against him for it.

there's nothing wrong with a sheep making itself to look like a wolf in a wolf's lair.

 

[Brother Mike]

Thank you Brother Whirlwind for your Statement of Faith. I really like to see people like that.

WhirlWind Quoted:

Would I lie? Yes I would to protect another person and I have great faith. As shown the liars thrown in the lake of fire are not those that lie to protect others.

I Think the issue I have Brother, is that I can't find the place to draw the line here. When Laying hands on the sick, I always have to keep in mind, that no matter what the outcome, I am NOT the Healer. Just a mailman, with no power to enforce the content of the letter. In other words, I can't heal anyone, and I can't be anyone's provider.

I can be used by God to provide, and be used to Heal, but I am thankful to just be ONE of many outlets the Provider uses. (God)

Same with Protection. I am not the Protector. I can build walls, Lie, and bar the doors, but Without the greater one inside me, Without God, Without the Word, These things are nothing to Satan, if he has a place.

While in Prison: (I don't like telling this.......)

I upset some Gang type members by witnessing to one of their younger gang members to leave the gang and get on the light side. I had been warned several times to stop, and leave this brother alone.
One night while I was minding my own buisness and nobody else around, 3 men were intent on harming me They told me that they were going to show me a lesson, and attempt to harm me I am not that small of a guy, but there were 3 of them, and it looked liked they were carrying some object in there hand. I had a soap bottle and shampoo as my only defense.

For some reason, I just laughed, I don't know why, but it just came out. I said, Satan, is this the best you can do????
I then faced the men to talk my way out of whatever they were planing to do to me, and all three looked terrified. They slowing backed off, and ran.

That really shocked me, I was very curious as to what they saw, and what they were feeling. I found their leader the next morning and approached him. He freaked out on me and started shouting for the guards?????? All three men, turned themselves in to go to segregation. That is where inmates go if they refuse to stay in the wing assigned to them. I never saw them again.

To this day, I have no idea what they saw, or what really happened.

The point is, We do not have to ever lie. I know Christian parents today that still tell their children that Santa is coming. It's a lie, but they justify it, saying its for the fun of the Children. I don't see it that way.

So, Brother WhirlWind, I just don't see where that line should be crossed. I am not claiming to see everything, but I know God upholds his word for those that will not be moved. You know that also..

Be blessed!!!!!

Jesus Is Lord.


POST EDITED FOR GRAPHIC CONTENT

 

[whirlwind]

Thank you Brother Whirlwind for your Statement of Faith. I really like to see people like that.

WhirlWind Quoted:



I Think the issue I have Brother, is that I can't find the place to draw the line here. When Laying hands on the sick, I always have to keep in mind, that no matter what the outcome, I am NOT the Healer. Just a mailman, with no power to enforce the content of the letter. In other words, I can't heal anyone, and I can't be anyone's provider.

I can be used by God to provide, and be used to Heal, but I am thankful to just be ONE of many outlets the Provider uses. (God)

Same with Protection. I am not the Protector. I can build walls, Lie, and bar the doors, but Without the greater one inside me, Without God, Without the Word, These things are nothing to Satan, if he has a place.

While in Prison: (I don't like telling this.......)

I upset some Gang type members by witnessing to one of their younger gang members to leave the gang and get on the light side. I had been warned several times to stop, and leave this brother alone.
One night while I was taking a shower, and nobody else around, 3 of them came into the shower with me. They told me that they were going to show me a lesson, and rape me. I am not that small of a guy, but there were 3 of them, and it looked liked they were carrying something hidden in there hand. I had a soap bottle and shampoo as my only defense.

For some reason, I just laughed, I don't know why, but it just came out. I said, Satan, is this the best you can do????
I then faced the men to talk my way out of whatever they were planing to do to me, and all three looked terrified. They slowing backed off, and ran.

That really shocked me, I was very curious as to what they saw, and what they were feeling. I found their leader the next morning and approached him. He freaked out on me and started shouting for the guards?????? All three men, turned themselves in to go to segregation. That is where inmates go if they refuse to stay in the wing assigned to them. I never saw them again.

To this day, I have no idea what they saw, or what really happened.

The point is, We do not have to ever lie. I know Christian parents today that still tell their children that Santa is coming. It's a lie, but they justify it, saying its for the fun of the Children. I don't see it that way.

So, Brother WhirlWind, I just don't see where that line should be crossed. I am not claiming to see everything, but I know God upholds his word for those that will not be moved. You know that also..

Be blessed!!!!!

Jesus Is Lord.

First of all....I'm not "brother" Whirlwind. :lol: I didn't correct you before as I believe....we are neither male nor female when we are One in Jesus and....I am in Jesus and He in me. So, in spirit I am your brother but, in this flesh body...I am not .

Secondly....I can just imagine what, or who, your attackers saw. I don't blame them for running. It reminds me of....

2 Kings 6:16-18 And he answered, Fear not: for they that be with us are more than they that be with them. And Elisha prayed, and said, LORD, I pray thee, open his eyes, that he may see. And the LORD opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw: and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha. And when they came down to him, Elisha prayed unto the LORD, and said, Smite this people, I pray thee, with blindness. And he smote them with blindness according to the word of Elisha.​

Those that wished to harm you saw "the fire round about" you, whatever form that fire took.

As far as lying to protect others. I don't think it will happen either but...should it, I would lie. I agree with what Sniper wrote.....

a lie is not a lie unless its from the heart.

it seems that the bible condoned abraham's "little white lie" after all, he was god's favored one.

i feel that he showed an intelligent way of protecting himself in a hostile situation. i dont think that god held anything against him for it.

there's nothing wrong with a sheep making itself to look like a wolf in a wolf's lair.

If one lies to deceive, for nefarious reasons...it is evil. To protect someone is not evil. It has no part with Satan but to keep one from Satan. The Devil "is a liar and the father of it," but that lying is to mislead, to deceive, to harm, it is not to protect.

 

[Brother Mike]

OK, WhirlWind, Who is in the Lord.

I will attempt to not use Brother anymore.

I figured it was Angels, I just wanted their description of What they Saw and felt. Angels Radiate the Fear of the Lord, and I have never personally seen one........... (That I am aware of)

I made my case about Lying, but at least we know where each other stands, Your right anyway, That situation with the kids Thing would never come up.

Be blessed, and Highly favored in Jesus Mighty Name!!!!

Jesus Is Lord

 

[whirlwind]

OK, WhirlWind, Who is in the Lord.

I will attempt to not use Brother anymore.

I figured it was Angels, I just wanted their description of What they Saw and felt. Angels Radiate the Fear of the Lord, and I have never personally seen one........... (That I am aware of)

I made my case about Lying, but at least we know where each other stands, Your right anyway, That situation with the kids Thing would never come up.

Be blessed, and Highly favored in Jesus Mighty Name!!!!

Jesus Is Lord

Yes...it was angels. You're right in that we may have seen them but just didn't know. A few years ago I felt one...didn't see him but sure felt his power. I tripped as going down a construction staircase in a home under construction. I would have smacked my noggin open on the concrete floor but as soon as I felt my foot slip and gasped I was enveloped...I can't describe it. I was wrapped up and protected. I had no idea what had happened but my mouth and eyes were wide open. I couldn't even mention it to my husband who was behind me. It was indescribable but....I knew!

 

[Brother Mike]

Yes...it was angels. You're right in that we may have seen them but just didn't know. A few years ago I felt one...didn't see him but sure felt his power. I tripped as going down a construction staircase in a home under construction. I would have smacked my noggin open on the concrete floor but as soon as I felt my foot slip and gasped I was enveloped...I can't describe it. I was wrapped up and protected. I had no idea what had happened but my mouth and eyes were wide open. I couldn't even mention it to my husband who was behind me. It was indescribable but....I knew!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Glory to God. Husband....ummm. I can see why Brother is not good. :huh:

The thing is, many would have said you would have been OK anyway, and we know that God gets all the Glory. Just like my son, I had a Pastor tell me that My son would have been fine with cancer Treatment, when I was talking about How God delivered him. What the Pastor did not know was that it was not common B-Cell Lymphoma that Kids get, and He did not know the Doctor report. I did not say anything, but it made me feel sad for him..

God Bless.........

Jesus Is Lord.