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Featured Is the messiah the father himself in flesh?

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by sho, Oct 17, 2020.

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  1. 101G

    101G Well-Known Member

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    NO, he's not in a physical body, he's the Spirit. scripture, John 14:18 "I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you."

    and he came on the day of Pentecost.

    the one who met Paul then Saul on the road to Damascus was Jesus the Holy Spirit, who is Father.. JESUS

    PICJAG
    101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"
     
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  2. Christophany

    Christophany Well-Known Member

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    I'm not quite sure what you mean but Jesus had to leave so that we could be indwelled with the Holy Spirit of promise. Both the Father and the Son sent the Holy Spirit as we read in my previous post. Sometimes the Holy Spirit is called the Spirit of Christ, the Spirit of God, the Spirit of the Father. Paul even says Christ in you the hope of Glory. That our bodies are the temple of the Holy Spirit who dwells/lives in us. So these are all interchangeable and have the same meaning.

    The Trinity below :)

    Romans 8:9
    You, however, are controlled not by the flesh, but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.

    hope this helps !!!
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2020
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  3. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    The person of the Son exists in a physical body (1 John 4:1-3, 2 John 1:7).

    The Holy Ghost (the Spirit of Jesus) is the Person spoken of in John 14:18; and He is Jesus (just not the Son, in the sense of dwelling in human flesh; except for ours).

    But the Person of the Son is also Jesus as He inhabits a body of human flesh; fully God and fully Man.
     
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  4. Christophany

    Christophany Well-Known Member

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    Then you deny the Resurrection of Jesus which is the very core of the gospel. He is not was fully God, fully man. the Incarnation was permanent, not temporal. Its the spirit of antichrist which denies Jesus has come and remains in the flesh as per 2 John 1:7, 1 John 4:2-3, Colossians 2:9. For all the fulness of Deity dwelleth in Him bodily. That is post Ascension. Stephen in Acts 7 saw Jesus as the son of man standing in heaven. He will return to this earth at His 2nd Coming as the Son of man- meaning He is still a man, a human. For there is One God and One Mediator between God and man, the MAN Christ Jesus. 1 Timothy 2:5

    hope this helps !!!
     
  5. 101G

    101G Well-Known Member

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    ERROR, the person JESUS exist in a Glorified body, for a natural/physical body have blood, he Jesus upon resurrection have no blood.

    his body is glorified in the Spirit. yes it touchable, but indestructible, meaning it's not a natural phyical body like you and I have.

    one clue, can your physical body appear and disappear?... thank you.

    PICJAG
    101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"
     
  6. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    Jesus' physical body is now like that of the angels in heaven (Matthew 22:30).

    He still exists in a physical human body (1 John 4:1-3 (kjv), 2 John 1:7 (kjv)).
     
  7. 101G

    101G Well-Known Member

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    here is your ERROR, listen, 1 Corinthians 15:35 "But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?"
    1 Corinthians 15:36 "Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:" (listen carefully to the very next verse),
    1 Corinthians 15:37 "And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:" (BINGO, what came out of mary, is not the body to be, it have been changed)
    1 Corinthians 15:38 "But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body."1 Corinthians 15:39 "All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds."

    PICJAG
    101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"
     
  8. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    What are you trying to say by that scripture?
     
  9. Christophany

    Christophany Well-Known Member

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    No once again I will take Jesus words over you "opinion" . Jesus after His physical bodily Resurrection(the tomb was empty, no body). His Resurrected body still retains the marks from His crucifixion.

    Jesus said a spirit does not have FLESH and BONES as you see I have. Luke 24:39

    Luke 24:40
    And when He had said this, He showed them His hands and feet.

    John 20:20
    After He had said this, He showed them His hands and His side. The disciples rejoiced when they saw the Lord.

    John 20:27
    Then Jesus said to Thomas, "Put your finger here and look at My hands. Reach out your hand and put it into My side. Stop doubting and believe."

    hope this helps !!!
     
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  10. Christophany

    Christophany Well-Known Member

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    denying the Resurrection.
     
  11. 101G

    101G Well-Known Member

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    Again you error, did you not hear what Jesus said, a resurrected body is not a natural body, the marks is not the body. the marks is there for your beliefs. but a resurredted body don't have blood.

    Now Christophany give me just "ONE" scripture where Jesus have any blood in him right now.

    do you know what blood is for? listen, Leviticus 17:11 "For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul."

    now do our Lord have any blood? just one scripture will do.

    I'll be looking for your scripture,

    PICJAG
    101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"
     
  12. Christophany

    Christophany Well-Known Member

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    keep looking at scripture through human reasoning without faith and you get your beliefs.
     
  13. Christophany

    Christophany Well-Known Member

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    Acts 1:3
    To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:

    Matthew 28:9,16
    And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him…
     
  14. 101G

    101G Well-Known Member

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    listen to the truth, 1 Corinthians 15:37 "And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:"
    1 Corinthians 15:38 "But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body."

    this is basic bible study you should have known this. that which is flesh is flesh, but that which is Spirit is Spirit.

    PICJAG
    101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"
     
  15. Christophany

    Christophany Well-Known Member

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    and the greek word for body is soma and ALWAYS means a literal physical body with man.

    1. soma (‎sw=ma‎, NT:4983) is "the body as a whole, the instrument of life," whether of man living, e. g., Matt 6:22, or dead, Matt 27:52; or in resurrection, 1 Cor 15:44; or of beasts, Heb 13:11; of grain, 1 Cor 15:37-38; of the heavenly hosts, 1 Cor 15:40.

    Sometimes the word stands, by synecdoche, for "the complete man," Matt 5:29; 6:22; Rom 12:1; James 3:6; Rev 18:13. Sometimes the person is identified with his or her "body," Acts 9:37; 13:36, and this is so even of the Lord Jesus, John 19:40 with 42. The "body" is not the man, for he himself can exist apart from his "body," 2 Cor 12:2-3. The "body" is an essential part of the man and therefore the redeemed are not perfected till the resurrection, Heb 11:40; no man in his final state will be without his "body," John 5:28-29; Rev 20:13.

    The word is also used for physical nature, as distinct from pneuma, "the spiritual nature," e. g., 1 Cor 5:3, and from psuche, "the soul," e. g., 1 Thess 5:23. "Soma, 'body,' and pneuma, 'spirit,' may be separated; pneuma and psuche, 'soul,' can only be distinguished" Vines

    hope this helps !!!
     
  16. 101G

    101G Well-Known Member

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    did I not say that. he don't have any blood. listen one again 1 Corinthians 15:37 "And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:"

    "that which thou sowest", you natural body that you have on now, is going to be change. "thou sowest not that body that shall be".

    it's not the same body in structure.

    listen and understand, you look from man wisdom, thinking of the world flesh, but understand this is only a "CREATED" world, the Spirit world is the real world you cannot judge anything from this world point of view. hence to re-new your mind.

    ANOTHER ERROR on your part, scripture, 1 Corinthians 15:39 "All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds."1 Corinthians 15:40 "There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another."1 Corinthians 15:41 "There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory."1 Corinthians 15:42 "So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:"1 Corinthians 15:43 "It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:"1 Corinthians 15:44 "It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body."

    is that to hard to understand?


    PICJAG
    101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"
     
  17. historyb

    historyb Well-Known Member

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    On the road to Damascus in Acts
    As he was nearing Damascus on this mission, suddenly a brilliant light from heaven spotted down upon him! 4 He fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, “Paul! Paul! Why are you persecuting me?

    “Who is speaking, sir?” Paul asked.

    And the voice replied, “I am Jesus, the one you are persecuting! 6 Now get up and go into the city and await my further instructions.


    Acts 9:3-6 TLB

    and

    One night the Lord spoke to Paul in a vision and told him, “Don’t be afraid! Speak out! Don’t quit!


    Acts 18:9 TLB
     
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  18. 101G

    101G Well-Known Member

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    @Christophany, do you understand now? 1 Corinthians 15:39a "All flesh is not the same flesh"

    you should have known this.

    PICJAG
    101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"
     
  19. Christophany

    Christophany Well-Known Member

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    Jesus has the same body that was in the grave as it was raised immortal, incorruptible, imperishable.

    Jesus said a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have. Blood is the life of both man and animal. In 1 Cor 15 it also represents the corruptible body which the bible says cannot inherit the kingdom of God. Jesus resurrected body was no longer corruptible but was a new glorified body of flesh and bones.

    Luke 24:39
    39 " See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have."

    1 Cor 15:50-51-
    50 Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.Paul not only states that one of the main tenants of the gospel is the belief that Jesus rose from the dead, but in verse 17, he goes on to say that “if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins.” For centuries, Christians have taught and defended the doctrine of the resurrection – teaching that Jesus physically rose in the same human body in which He died. Notice the correlation between the perishable human body and the imperishable resurrected body as described in 1 Corinthians 15:42-44:

    “So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.”

    The Greek term, “soma” for “body” is always used in Scripture to refer to physical nature. Likewise, the term “spiritual” is used in the Scripture to denote “supernatural” behavior—not a “spiritual” essence of being. Thus, the phrase “spiritual body” in the passage above speaks of a “physical supernatural” body—not a “spirit body.” Another example of the term “spiritual” referring to “supernatural” behavior is 1 Corinthians 2:15 where we read, “But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no man.” The “spiritual” person in both of these passages is behaving in a “supernatural” way, not ontologically transforming “human” essence into “spirit” essence.

    1 CORINTHIANS 15:50: “Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.” Ron Rhodes
    Jehovah’s Witnesses claim that Jesus could not have risen in His human body of flesh and bones, because Scripture states that “flesh and blood” cannot inherit the kingdom of God. Notice that Jesus did not say that His resurrected body was made of “flesh and blood.” Rather, He said His body was made of “flesh and bone” (Luke 24:39). This is significant because the term “flesh and blood” is often used in Scripture to refer to mortal humanity,in contrast to the imperishable, resurrected body alluded to by the phrase, “flesh and bones.”

    As noted earlier, Jesus’ blood provided the atonement for sin. He did not take His “blood” back, but merely resurrected his body of flesh and bones. Far from claiming that the resurrected human body cannot inherit God’s kingdom, this passage asserts that the mortal, perishable human body (made of flesh and blood) cannot inherit the immortal, imperishable kingdom of God. Indeed as 1 Corinthians 15:53 states, “this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.”

    A spiritual body denotes an immortal body. A spiritual body is one that is dominated by the spirit, not one that is devoid of matter. The Greek word pneumatikos means a body that is directed by the spirit as opposed to one under the dominion of the flesh. It is not ruled by the flesh that perishes but by the spirit that endures. (1 Cor 15:50-58). A spiritual body does no mean immaterial or invisible but immortal and imperishable.

    Paul makes these parallels:
    Earthly- Heavenly (verse 40)
    Perishable- Imperishable (verse 42)
    Weak- Powerful (verse 43)
    Natural-Supernatural (verse 44)
    Mortal- Immortal (verse 53)

    The content shows that spiritual (pneumatikos) could be translated supernatural in contrast to natural from the parallels of perishable and imperishable, corruptible and incorruptible. Pneumatikos is translated supernatural in 1 Cor 10:4 regarding the supernatural rock that followed them in the wilderness. In the translation spiritual refers to physical objects. In 1 Cor 10:45 Paul spoke of the spiritual rock that followed Israel in the wilderness from which they got spiritual drink 1 Cor 10:4.But the OT story (Ex 17,Num 20)reveals it was a physical rock from which they got literal water to drink. The actual water they drank from the material rock was produced supernaturally. Further Paul spoke about a spiritual man 1 Cor 2:15 he obviously did not mean an invisible, immaterial man with no corporeal body. He was as a matter of fact speaking of a flesh and blood human being whose life is lived by the supernatural power of God, a literal person whose life is Spirit directed. A spiritual man is one who is taught by the Spirit and who receives the things that come from the Spirit of God. (1 Cor 2:13-14). The resurrection body can be called a spiritual body in much the same way we speak of the bible being a spiritual book. Regardless of their spiritual source and power both the resurrection body and the bible are material objects.

    Life giving Spirit does not speak of the nature of Christ’s resurrected body but of the divine origin of the resurrection. Jesus physical body came back to life only by the power of God. (Rom 1:4). Paul is speaking about its spiritual source not its physical substance as a material body. If spirit describes the nature of Christ’s resurrected body then Adam with whom He is contrasted must not have a soul since he is described as of the earth, made of dust (verse 47). But the bible clearly says that Adam was a living soul (Gen 2:7). Christ’s body is called a spiritual body (soma) which always means a physical body when referring to an individual human being. The resurrected body is called spiritual and life giving spirit because its source is in the spiritual realm, not because its substance is immaterial. Christ’s supernatural resurrection body is from heaven as Adams natural body was from the earth. (verse 47). But just as the one from earth has an immaterial soul even so the One from heaven has a material body.

    1 Cor 15:50-54
    50 I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."

    Paul said earlier in the chapter if Christ be not risen your faith is in vain and you are still dead in your sins- an unbeliever who is lost. Those who deny the physical bodily resurrection of Jesus such as the JW's who teach that Jesus is now a spirit based being fit into this camp. They deny the resurrection.

    If we look at what Paul is saying in this passage, it is that corruptible flesh and blood shall not enter the kingdom. Paul says corruptible does not inherit the incorruptible. Paul is not saying the resurrection body will not have flesh but what he declares is that resurrected body will not have perishable flesh. Remember in Luke Jesus said see here My hands and feet, touch Me a spirit/ghost does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have. Peter, Paul and John all agree that Jesus still had flesh well after His ascension. 1 John being the last of the books of the three Apostles declared that Jesus having come in the flesh and those who deny this are the spirit of antichrist. John makes it clear that the Incarnation was permanent. Jesus is forever both God and man. This is what Paul teaches in the whole 15th chapter of 1 Corinthians.

    The glorious physical bodies that we will have in the resurrection. We will have incorruptible bodies just as Jesus now has in heaven. Soul= immortal, imperishable and Flesh=mortal, perishable.
    Now in the resurrection in 1 cor 15 the perishable (your body now ) with put on the imperishable(body that does not perish). Just as we see with Jesus Resurrected body it is physical, has flesh and bones, the scars from His crucifixion which proves it was the same body but had changed from mortal to immortal.

    hope this helps,
     
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  20. 101G

    101G Well-Known Member

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    if it's the same body was it immortal, incorruptible before? of course not, if you cannot believe the scriptures.

    look Christophany, if you got some tattoos, is the tattoos your body? no. if you had a car wreck and was scarred, is the scar your body or on your body, or in your body? see the difference... so was you born with any scars?

    for if someone was scarred, they would say, I have scars on my body.


    PICJAG
    101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"
     
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