Is the story of Noah literal?

[TinMan]

I think there are various sightings of whale bones but here is one: Paleontologists discover a whale fossil on top of a mountain

But as far as the age of the skeleton, I wouldn't trust carbon dating for that. I watched a documentary that put huge holes in the carbon dating theory.

Thank you for the information.

Please remember that radiocarbon dating is limited to dating organic material less than 50,000 years old so it is not generally useful in dating fossils not just because of their age but the fossilization process removes most or all of the carbon from the fossil. So any attempt at radiocarbon dating a fossil will produce unreliable results that can vary by epochs. I suspect the documentary you say involved misusing radiocarbon dating to "prove" it is unreelable, there are a number of such films around and I've seen a couple myself.

There are many ways to date fossils including: stratigraphy, faunal succession, k-Ar dating, uranium series dating, fission track, thermoluminescence, ESR, tephrochronology and a half dozen others. An important find like this whale will be dated by multiple methods. If I read the paper on it correctly it was subjected to the first 5 of the methods I listed above and they all concur the fossil is four million years old.

 

[dev553344]

Thank you for the information.

Please remember that radiocarbon dating is limited to dating organic material less than 50,000 years old so it is not generally useful in dating fossils not just because of their age but the fossilization process removes most or all of the carbon from the fossil. So any attempt at radiocarbon dating a fossil will produce unreliable results that can vary by epochs. I suspect the documentary you say involved misusing radiocarbon dating to "prove" it is unreelable, there are a number of such films around and I've seen a couple myself.

There are many ways to date fossils including: stratigraphy, faunal succession, k-Ar dating, uranium series dating, fission track, thermoluminescence, ESR, tephrochronology and a half dozen others. An important find like this whale will be dated by multiple methods. If I read the paper on it correctly it was subjected to the first 5 of the methods I listed above and they all concur the fossil is four million years old.

Keep in mind that for fossilization to happen it must be rapidly buried before it decays, the bones must rapidly be buried. That was the argument for accepting the flood as a possible method for fossilization.

That and some of the fossils were found vertically buried as if buried by mudslides.

 

[Windmillcharge]

you mean like the quantity and quality of research and evidence there is for evolution.

So in your eyes only people who believe in evolution are intelligent, can be scientists, be listened to.

How do you view those famous scientists who discovered so much of what we regard as science and who where bible believing Christians who believed in yec.

 

[robert derrick]

Is the flood of Genesis story literal? I have always thought that it was because Jesus referred to the days of Noah and AIG and YECs do a good job of presenting it as literal, what do y’all think? Are Noah’s ark and flood literal scientific facts? « SMR blog

1. A large percentage of the world’s fauna, including, for example, dodos, sloths, penguins, kangaroos, koalas and many other species, are not native to the Middle East (assuming that was the location of Noah’s ark). How did they travel there to board the ark?
2. Island species are particularly vulnerable to predators — when predators have been introduced to an island, they often drive indigenous species to extinction (as has happened in Australia, Hawaii, the Galapagos and numerous other islands). Thus such species would not have been able to survive in the Middle East, away from their naturally protected habitats.
3. The total mass of on-board animals would have been some 400,000 kg, if only yearlings were taken, or some 5 million kg, if adults were taken. Either figure is far more than could be accommodated in the ark as described in the Bible and reconstructed in Kentucky.
4. The figures in the previous item do not include food and water for a one-year sojourn, which would multiply the weight by at least 10 times if not more. Further, many animals require special diets — silkworms require mulberry leaves, Pandas require bamboo, and snakes, for example, require fresh food. How could fresh food be provided for a full year?
5. How could large numbers of animals be protected from the many on-board predators, such as lions and tigers?

If not, then neither is the Bible, nor the God of the Bible.

 

[Windmillcharge]

Thank you for the information.

One has to note that none of these learned people have included this study, which is claimed to be peer reviewed in any of their publication biographies. I wonder why.

Maybe it has something to do with their assumption that somehow trees grew much larger than they do now and would "grown taller than 10 metres" and "weighed about 5 tonnes" about 3 times what a stone block from the great pyramid weighs but doesn't go into just how Noah and his three sons would have been able to harvest, transport and place a 5 ton log. They say Noah would have needed just 800 of these logs but if you crunch some numbers that would be a fraction of the material needed for the dimensions of the ark the paper describes.

To stabilize the hull the paper here indicates that more than 60% of the interior would have to be filled with bracing...adding about 2000 more trees to the total needed. They didn't address just how anything would fit inside with all that bracing.

What isn't addressed is the problem a boat this size would have with leaking. There is a reason that Spanish galleons were the largest wooded boats ever. Their size was limited to how much water could be pumped out of the galleon.

Aig has many articles about the ark, leaking is covered in one.
From memory, leaks where due to movement of the Hull due to stresses from the masts and sails.
The aek drifted and would not have had the same stresses.
There would have been leaks it is assumed they could be contained.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Thanks for the response but those are not my objections, I listed a link where I got that from. I’m not advocating literal or non literal I’m trying to hear from both sides

OK, But there is an enormous cache of scientific evidence to show that teh Noahic flood is the best answer for many areas of science.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Saying we can never know is not actually an answer.

It is an answer. Just not one some like. We can guess and theorize but we cannot know with any certainty unless it can be found in the natural or written historical record.

Evidence that it was landmass and then can you explain just how a flood would reshape and move continents?

The flood was not a passive quiet event as all floods are not. the bible describes it as the earth breaking open and the waters spewing at force upon the earth and the waters falling.

Also the bible declares the earth was divided post flood.

Genesis 10:25
Two sons were born to Eber: One was named Peleg, because in his time the earth was divided; his brother was named Joktan.

Pangea was a supercontinent that existed during the late Paleozoic and early Mesozoic eras 335 million years ago. It was formed when the previous continents Gondwana, Euramerica and Siberia came together.

335 million years ago there was no earth or universe. Time began approx 6,000 years ago.

All the measuring tools of radiometric dating have been empirically proven wildly inaccurate.

Exactly what is a "kind"

Since the Linnean System in the 18 th century became the predominant tool, it seems to fall somewhere with family

Habits?

Used for lack of a better word at the time. But I think you know what is meant.

how does the flood produce the KT boundary? (the worldwide iridium geological layer from the end of the Cretaceous period)

Well there are several valid theories of YEC Scientists that match and are better than the chixilub mass extinction that is supposedly evidenced by the KT boundary.

Remember tehj flood was an enormously violent event. , Floods when subsiding in energy and flowing to areas leave specific markers in teh earth most times. Teh Grand Canyon is a perfect example of a flood carving out a canyon and leaving the sedimentary layers to see.

For all we know the iridium could have been undrground and laid during the global eruptions that took place at the flood.

 

[Webers_Home]

.
The Flood was a miraculous event. Had Noah built the Ark as frail and fragile
as a house of cards; God could've easily made it survive.

Fortunately Noah didn't have to go on safari to round up his passengers. The
Bible says two of each "shall come to you." which implies of course that
species who failed to come got left behind and died in the Flood.

But how did they cross oceans? In the past that was doubtless a thorny
theological problem. But with today's knowledge of the geological science of
plate tectonics, the answer is as simple as two plus two. Scientists have
discovered that continental land masses can be shifted, and in point of fact
the dry parts brought so close together as to form one single super
continent.

Scientists have also discovered magma hot spots and pressure points that
can raise and lower the earth's crust like a service elevator, which I suspect
played a role by pushing sea beds up enough to form land bridges; thus
expediting migration.

* God gave the antediluvians 120 years to get ready for the Flood. As a
matter of interest: were the ark to launch in 2023, critters would've
been on the move towards it since 1903-- the year of the Wright Brothers
historical flight, and nine years before the Titanic foundered --probably
reproducing many times along the way since there are not all that many
species that live to see 120 years of age.

The ark is assumed to come aground on top of a mountain named Ararat;
translated from a Hebrew word that appears three more times in the Bible:
one at 2Kgs 19:36-37, one at Isa 37:36-38, and one at Jer 51:27. Ararat in
the Bible always refers to a political area-- in particular to the country of
Armenia --never a specific geological feature by the same name.

The Hebrew word translated "mountains" doesn't always indicate a
prominent land mass like Kilimanjaro; especially when it's plural. Har can
also mean a range of hills or highlands; for example:

In California, where I lived as a kid, the local elevation 35 miles east of San
Diego, in the town of Alpine, was about 2,000 feet above sea level. There
were plenty of meadows with pasture and good soil. In fact much of it was
very good ranch land and quite a few people in that area raised horses and
cows. We ourselves kept about five hundred chickens, and a few goats and
calves. We lived in the mountains of San Diego; but we didn't live up on top
of one of its peaks like Viejas, Lyon's, or Cuyamaca.

It makes better sense to beach the Ark on the soil of one of Armenia's
elevated plains rather than up on one of Turkey's ancient volcanoes seeing
as how Noah took up agriculture after the Flood.

So; what happened to the ark? Well; according to the dimensions given at
Gen 6:15, the ark was shaped like what the beautiful minds call a right
rectangular prism; which is nothing in the world but the shape of a common
shoe box. So most of the lumber and logs used in its construction would've
been nice and straight; which is perfect for putting together houses, fences,
barns, corrals, stables, gates, hog troughs, mangers, and outhouses.

I think it's safe to assume that Noah and his kin gradually dismantled the
ark over time and used the wood for many other purposes, including fires.
Nobody cooked or heated their homes or their bath and laundry water using
refined fossil fuels and/or electricity and steam in those days, so everybody
needed to keep on hand a pretty fair-sized wood pile for their daily needs.

There was probably plenty of driftwood left behind by the Flood, but most of
that would be water-soaked at first. But according to Gen 6:14 the ark's
lumber was treated. So underneath the pitch it was still in pretty good shape
and should have been preserved for many years to come.
_

 

[Scott Downey]

If Noah and the ark is not a true story, then the creation is another mythical story.
Comment about Australian animals being only in Australia, so what happened then at the creation with Adam naming all the animals?
Those animals were in Eden. Adam only names land dwelling animals, no whales or fish. Do not make a big assumption that Australian animals were only ever in Australia, if you believe that, then you are aligning your thinking to evolution of creatures according to the world.
--------------------------------------------
15 Then the Lord God took [d]the man and put him in the garden of Eden to [e]tend and keep it. 16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you[f] shall surely die.”

18 And the Lord God said, “It is not good that man should be alone; I will make him a helper comparable to him.” 19 Out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the air, and brought them to [g]Adam to see what he would call them. And whatever Adam called each living creature, that was its name. 20 So Adam gave names to all cattle, to the birds of the air, and to every beast of the field. But for Adam there was not found a helper comparable to him.

 

[Webers_Home]

.

Those animals were in Eden.

The garden was Adam's home, but I don't think he was stuck there, rather;
was free to roam as far and as often as he liked: and as he did; encountered
quite a variety of life on land and in the air.

BTW: The Hebrew word translated "birds" simply means covered with wings as
opposed to covered with feathers. It's a rather ambiguous word because it
includes not only creatures with feathers, but according to Lev 11:13-23, it
also pertains to bats and flying insects.
_

 

[Scott Downey]

.


The garden was Adam's home, but I don't think he was stuck there, rather;
was free to roam as far and as often as he liked: and as he did; encountered
quite a variety of life on land and in the air.

BTW: The Hebrew word translated "birds" simply means covered with wings as
opposed to covered with feathers. It's a rather ambiguous word because it
includes not only creatures with feathers, but according to Lev 11:13-23, it
also pertains to bats and flying insects.
_

No indication Adam ever left Eden willingly, only unwillingly after Adam and Ever disobeyed God.
We also do not know, but Eden may have been a big place. And the earth was alive with plants and animals, even while the garden of Eden endured. God could have formed the animals in the garden and after Adam viewed and named them told the animal to spread abroad on the earth.

The command to fill the earth and multiply speaks to that. So at the time of the flood, all these animal types I think would have been fairly local to Noah.

 

[TinMan]

Aig has many articles about the ark, leaking is covered in one.
From memory, leaks where due to movement of the Hull due to stresses from the masts and sails.
The aek drifted and would not have had the same stresses.
There would have been leaks it is assumed they could be contained.

All wooden boats leak whether under sail or sitting in a harbor. How much leakage is dependant on the size of the boat. THe bigger the boat the more it will leak.

 

[TinMan]

So in your eyes only people who believe in evolution are intelligent, can be scientists, be listened to.

Thank you for putting words into my mouth

 

[TinMan]

OK, But there is an enormous cache of scientific evidence to show that teh Noahic flood is the best answer for many areas of science.

where?

 

[Jack]

Maybe Moses just penned a story giving his understanding of what God spoke to him. You know, he was an Egyptian. Being raised in the house of Pharaoh Moses would have been taught all the stories of the ancient Mesopotamians and all of the other ancient cultures of the area?

Moses was wrong??? Not according to Jesus.

 

[Jack]

Those who believe science over the Bible are not Christians. They've been duped by the Satanic media.

 

[Webers_Home]

.

All wooden boats leak whether under sail or sitting in a harbor. How much leakage
is dependant on the size of the boat. THe bigger the boat the more it will leak.

Noah's boat was sealed inside and out with a bituminous material (Gen
6:14) I seriously doubt it was ever in danger of sinking.
_

 

[Cassandra]

If Noah and the ark is not a true story, then the creation is another mythical story.
Comment about Australian animals being only in Australia, so what happened then at the creation with Adam naming all the animals?
Those animals were in Eden. Adam only names land dwelling animals, no whales or fish. Do not make a big assumption that Australian animals were only ever in Australia, if you believe that, then you are aligning your thinking to evolution of creatures according to the world.
--------------------------------------------
15 Then the Lord God took [d]the man and put him in the garden of Eden to [e]tend and keep it. 16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you[f] shall surely die.”

18 And the Lord God said, “It is not good that man should be alone; I will make him a helper comparable to him.” 19 Out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the air, and brought them to [g]Adam to see what he would call them. And whatever Adam called each living creature, that was its name. 20 So Adam gave names to all cattle, to the birds of the air, and to every beast of the field. But for Adam there was not found a helper comparable to him.

It is part of the same Book that teaches Christ is saviour.

All wooden boats leak whether under sail or sitting in a harbor. How much leakage is dependant on the size of the boat. THe bigger the boat the more it will leak.

Sorry-I don't think a boat engineered by God would leak.
-God can do everything.

 

[Jack]

.


Noah's boat was sealed inside and out with a bituminous material (Gen
6:14) I seriously doubt it was ever in danger of sinking.
_

God's miracle boat was never in danger!

 

[TinMan]

.


Noah's boat was sealed inside and out with a bituminous material (Gen
6:14) I seriously doubt it was ever in danger of sinking.
_

Yes, pitch made from bituminous coal. But wait...there was no coal before the flood. Hmmmm