Is the Word of God only found in scripture?

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theefaith

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Most Protestants never heard it before cos of their traditions of men, like the so called reformers none of which were apostles and had no authority from Christ formulated the 5 Protestant Solas or dogmas!

dan 13:1
Now there was a man that dwelt in Babylon, and his name was Joakim:

2 And he took a wife whose name was Susanna, the daughter of Helcias, a very beautiful woman, and one that feared God.

3 For her parents being just, had instructed their daughter according to the law of Moses.

4 Now Joakim was very rich, and had an orchard near his house: and the Jews resorted to him, because he was the most honourable of them all.

5 And there were two of the ancients of the people appointed judges that year, of whom the Lord said: Iniquity came out from Babylon from the ancient judges, that seemed to govern the people.

6 These men frequented the house of Joakim, and all that had any matters of judgment came to them.

7 And when the people departed away at noon, Susanna went in, and walked in her husband's orchard.

8 And the old men saw her going in every day, and walking: and they were inflamed with lust towards her:

9 And they perverted their own mind and turned away their eyes that they might not look unto heaven, nor remember just judgments.

10 So they were both wounded with the love of her, yet they did not make known their grief one to the other:

11 For they were ashamed to declare to one another their lust, being desirous to have to do with her.

12 And they watched carefully every day to see her. And one said to the other:

13 Let us now go home, for it is dinner time. So going out they departed one from another.

14 And turning back again, they came both to the same place: and asking one another the cause, they acknowledged their lust; and then they agreed upon a time, when they might find her alone.

15 And it fell out, as they watched a fit day, she went in on a time, as yesterday and the day before, with two maids only, and was desirous to wash herself in the orchard: for it was hot weather.

16 And there was nobody there, but the two old men that had hid themselves and were beholding her.

17 So she said to the maids: Bring me oil, and washing balls, and shut the doors of the orchard, that I may wash me.

18 And they did as she bade them: and they shut the doors of the orchard, and went out by a back door to fetch what she had commanded them, and they knew not that the elders were hid within.

19 Now when the maids were gone forth, the two elders arose, and ran to her, and said:

20 Behold the doors of the orchard are shut, and nobody seeth us, and we are in love with thee: wherefore consent to us, and lie with us.

21 But if thou wilt not, we will bear witness against thee, that a young man was with thee, and therefore thou didst send away thy maids from thee.

22 Susanna sighed, and said: I am straitened on every side: for if I do this thing, it is death to me: and if I do it not, I shall not escape your hands.

23 But it is better for me to fall into your hands without doing it, than to sin in the sight of the Lord.

24 With that Susanna cried out with a loud voice: and the elders also cried out against her.

25 And one of them ran to the door of the orchard, and opened it.

26 So when the servants of the house heard the cry in the orchard, they rushed in by the back door to see what was the matter.

27 But after the old men had spoken, the servants were greatly ashamed: for never had there been any such word said of Susanna. And on the next day,

28 When the people were come to Joakim her husband, the two elders also came full of wicked device against Susanna, to put her to death.

29 And they said before the people: Send to Susanna daughter of Helcias the wife of Joakim. And presently they sent.

30 And she came with her parents, and children, and all her kindred.

31 Now Susanna was exceeding delicate, and beautiful to behold.

32 But those wicked men commanded that her face should be uncovered, (for she was covered,) that so at least they might be satisfied with her beauty.

33 Therefore her friends and all her acquaintance wept.

34 But the two elders rising up in the midst of the people, laid their hands upon her head.

35 And she weeping looked up to heaven, for her heart had confidence in the Lord.

36 And the elders said: As we walked in the orchard alone, this woman came in with two maids, and shut the doors of the orchard, and sent away the maids from her.

37 Then a young man that was there hid came to her, and lay with her.

38 But we that were in a corner of the orchard, seeing this wickedness, ran up to them, and we saw them lie together.

39 And him indeed we could not take, because he was stronger than us, and opening the doors he leaped out:

40 But having taken this woman, we asked who the young man was, but she would not tell us: of this thing we are witnesses.

41 The multitude believed them as being the elders and the judges of the people, and they condemned her to death.

42 Then Susanna cried out with a loud voice, and said: O eternal God, who knowest hidden things, who knowest all things before they come to pass,

43 Thou knowest that they have borne false witness against me: and behold I must die, whereas I have done none of these things, which these men have maliciously forged against me.

44 And the Lord heard her voice.

45 And when she was led to be put to death, the Lord raised up the holy spirit of a young boy, whose name was Daniel.

46 And he cried out with a loud voice I am clear from the blood of this woman.

47 Then all the people turning themselves towards him, said: What meaneth this word that thou hast spoken?

48 But he standing in the midst of them, said: Are ye so foolish, ye children of Israel, that without examination or knowledge of the truth, you have condemned a daughter of Israel?

49 Return to judgment, for they have borne false witness against her.

50 So all the people turned again in haste, and the old men said to him: Come, and sit thou down among us, and shew it us: seeing God hath given thee the honour of old age.

51 And Daniel said to the people: Separate these two far from one another, and I will examine them.

52 So when they were put asunder one from the other, he called one of them, and said to him: O thou that art grown old in evil days, now are thy sins come out, which thou hast committed before:

53 In judging unjust judgments, oppressing the innocent, and letting the guilty to go free, whereas the Lord saith: The innocent and the just thou shalt not kill.

54 Now then, if thou sawest her, tell me under what tree thou sawest them conversing together. He said: Under a mastic tree.

55 And Daniel said: Well hast thou lied against thy own head: for behold the angel of God having received the sentence of him, shall cut thee in two.

56 And having put him aside, he commanded that the other should come, and he said to him: O thou seed of Chanaan, and not of Juda, beauty hath deceived thee, and lust hath perverted thy heart:

57 Thus did you do to the daughters of Israel, and they for fear conversed with you: but a daughter of Juda would not abide your wickedness.

58 Now therefore tell me, under what tree didst thou take them conversing together. And he answered: Under a holm tree.

59 And Daniel said to him: Well hast thou also lied against thy own head: for the angel of the Lord waiteth with a sword to cut thee in two, and to destroy you.

60 With that all the assembly cried out with a loud voice, and they blessed God, who saveth them that trust in him.

61 And they rose up against the two elders, (for Daniel had convicted them of false witness by their own mouth,) and they did to them as they had maliciously dealt against their neighbour,

62 To fulfill the law of Moses: and they put them to death, and innocent blood was saved in that day.

63 But Helcias and his wife praised God, for their daughter Susanna, with Joakim her husband, and all her kindred, because there was no dishonesty found in her.

64 And Daniel became great in the sight of the people from that day, and thenceforward.

65 And king Astyages was gathered to his fathers, and Cyrus the Persian received his kingdom.
 

CadyandZoe

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never said to take away scripture

it’s the tradition of men like those under king James who take away scripture
Whole books and many chapters like dan 13 & 14
Ever read the story of great faith of Susana?
No. You wouldn't be that obvious. No Little Birdy, you want to rob everyone of the scripture by arguing for extra Biblical writings that contradict scripture.
 

CadyandZoe

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Christ demands your allegiance to his ministers who act in his name and in his person until he returns
Negative. Your interpretation is filtered through your religion. The passages you cite do not support your view in the least.
 

theefaith

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1 John 2:27
But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

They pass on the teaching (words and information) but it is the Spirit who teaches us to make it life.

there is a massive thriving underground church in China and they thrive with only reading of pages of Scripture and rarely meet a Pastor for fear of jailing. They know all the basics. It is the the doctrines that must be mined by piecing them from many many passages that take time for all followers.

And remember there are no more Apostles. that office died with John the last Apostle to remain alive in the first century.

where does the Bible say that the apostles died out?

that’s not what the Bible and Christ say
Matt 28:19-20 I am with you (the apostles) in until the end when Christ returns

there is one new covenant
One church
One kingdom

apart from that is a spiritual anarchy of heretics
 

theefaith

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If Dan is short for Daniel then no for there are only 12 chapters to Daniel.

And how do you get to classify me as a certified genius? I never said it. Is that you failing at trying to mind read?

why is Daniel 13 not scripture?
What man made decision gave us this
The tradition of men under king James have no authority from Christ to decide such matters
 

theefaith

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Considered scripture for over a 1000 yrs until the tradition of men thought different

Great story of faith of Susana most Protestants never heard before!
dan 13:1
Now there was a man that dwelt in Babylon, and his name was Joakim:

2 And he took a wife whose name was Susanna, the daughter of Helcias, a very beautiful woman, and one that feared God.

3 For her parents being just, had instructed their daughter according to the law of Moses.

4 Now Joakim was very rich, and had an orchard near his house: and the Jews resorted to him, because he was the most honourable of them all.

5 And there were two of the ancients of the people appointed judges that year, of whom the Lord said: Iniquity came out from Babylon from the ancient judges, that seemed to govern the people.

6 These men frequented the house of Joakim, and all that had any matters of judgment came to them.

7 And when the people departed away at noon, Susanna went in, and walked in her husband's orchard.

8 And the old men saw her going in every day, and walking: and they were inflamed with lust towards her:

9 And they perverted their own mind and turned away their eyes that they might not look unto heaven, nor remember just judgments.

10 So they were both wounded with the love of her, yet they did not make known their grief one to the other:

11 For they were ashamed to declare to one another their lust, being desirous to have to do with her.

12 And they watched carefully every day to see her. And one said to the other:

13 Let us now go home, for it is dinner time. So going out they departed one from another.

14 And turning back again, they came both to the same place: and asking one another the cause, they acknowledged their lust; and then they agreed upon a time, when they might find her alone.

15 And it fell out, as they watched a fit day, she went in on a time, as yesterday and the day before, with two maids only, and was desirous to wash herself in the orchard: for it was hot weather.

16 And there was nobody there, but the two old men that had hid themselves and were beholding her.

17 So she said to the maids: Bring me oil, and washing balls, and shut the doors of the orchard, that I may wash me.

18 And they did as she bade them: and they shut the doors of the orchard, and went out by a back door to fetch what she had commanded them, and they knew not that the elders were hid within.

19 Now when the maids were gone forth, the two elders arose, and ran to her, and said:

20 Behold the doors of the orchard are shut, and nobody seeth us, and we are in love with thee: wherefore consent to us, and lie with us.

21 But if thou wilt not, we will bear witness against thee, that a young man was with thee, and therefore thou didst send away thy maids from thee.

22 Susanna sighed, and said: I am straitened on every side: for if I do this thing, it is death to me: and if I do it not, I shall not escape your hands.

23 But it is better for me to fall into your hands without doing it, than to sin in the sight of the Lord.

24 With that Susanna cried out with a loud voice: and the elders also cried out against her.

25 And one of them ran to the door of the orchard, and opened it.

26 So when the servants of the house heard the cry in the orchard, they rushed in by the back door to see what was the matter.

27 But after the old men had spoken, the servants were greatly ashamed: for never had there been any such word said of Susanna. And on the next day,

28 When the people were come to Joakim her husband, the two elders also came full of wicked device against Susanna, to put her to death.

29 And they said before the people: Send to Susanna daughter of Helcias the wife of Joakim. And presently they sent.

30 And she came with her parents, and children, and all her kindred.

31 Now Susanna was exceeding delicate, and beautiful to behold.

32 But those wicked men commanded that her face should be uncovered, (for she was covered,) that so at least they might be satisfied with her beauty.

33 Therefore her friends and all her acquaintance wept.

34 But the two elders rising up in the midst of the people, laid their hands upon her head.

35 And she weeping looked up to heaven, for her heart had confidence in the Lord.

36 And the elders said: As we walked in the orchard alone, this woman came in with two maids, and shut the doors of the orchard, and sent away the maids from her.

37 Then a young man that was there hid came to her, and lay with her.

38 But we that were in a corner of the orchard, seeing this wickedness, ran up to them, and we saw them lie together.

39 And him indeed we could not take, because he was stronger than us, and opening the doors he leaped out:

40 But having taken this woman, we asked who the young man was, but she would not tell us: of this thing we are witnesses.

41 The multitude believed them as being the elders and the judges of the people, and they condemned her to death.

42 Then Susanna cried out with a loud voice, and said: O eternal God, who knowest hidden things, who knowest all things before they come to pass,

43 Thou knowest that they have borne false witness against me: and behold I must die, whereas I have done none of these things, which these men have maliciously forged against me.

44 And the Lord heard her voice.

45 And when she was led to be put to death, the Lord raised up the holy spirit of a young boy, whose name was Daniel.

46 And he cried out with a loud voice I am clear from the blood of this woman.

47 Then all the people turning themselves towards him, said: What meaneth this word that thou hast spoken?

48 But he standing in the midst of them, said: Are ye so foolish, ye children of Israel, that without examination or knowledge of the truth, you have condemned a daughter of Israel?

49 Return to judgment, for they have borne false witness against her.

50 So all the people turned again in haste, and the old men said to him: Come, and sit thou down among us, and shew it us: seeing God hath given thee the honour of old age.

51 And Daniel said to the people: Separate these two far from one another, and I will examine them.

52 So when they were put asunder one from the other, he called one of them, and said to him: O thou that art grown old in evil days, now are thy sins come out, which thou hast committed before:

53 In judging unjust judgments, oppressing the innocent, and letting the guilty to go free, whereas the Lord saith: The innocent and the just thou shalt not kill.

54 Now then, if thou sawest her, tell me under what tree thou sawest them conversing together. He said: Under a mastic tree.

55 And Daniel said: Well hast thou lied against thy own head: for behold the angel of God having received the sentence of him, shall cut thee in two.

56 And having put him aside, he commanded that the other should come, and he said to him: O thou seed of Chanaan, and not of Juda, beauty hath deceived thee, and lust hath perverted thy heart:

57 Thus did you do to the daughters of Israel, and they for fear conversed with you: but a daughter of Juda would not abide your wickedness.

58 Now therefore tell me, under what tree didst thou take them conversing together. And he answered: Under a holm tree.

59 And Daniel said to him: Well hast thou also lied against thy own head: for the angel of the Lord waiteth with a sword to cut thee in two, and to destroy you.

60 With that all the assembly cried out with a loud voice, and they blessed God, who saveth them that trust in him.

61 And they rose up against the two elders, (for Daniel had convicted them of false witness by their own mouth,) and they did to them as they had maliciously dealt against their neighbour,

62 To fulfill the law of Moses: and they put them to death, and innocent blood was saved in that day.

63 But Helcias and his wife praised God, for their daughter Susanna, with Joakim her husband, and all her kindred, because there was no dishonesty found in her.

64 And Daniel became great in the sight of the people from that day, and thenceforward.

65 And king Astyages was gathered to his fathers, and Cyrus the Persian received his kingdom.
 

theefaith

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Pastorsd. and not in th eplace of Jesus, but as men appointed by God to shepherd ours souls.

And then we only submit to them as they follow Jesus. If they veer from SCriptural principles, we must not obey no matter what prestige they may have!
Spiritual anarchy
 

theefaith

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Pastorsd. and not in th eplace of Jesus, but as men appointed by God to shepherd ours souls.

And then we only submit to them as they follow Jesus. If they veer from SCriptural principles, we must not obey no matter what prestige they may have!
None of your pastors have any authority from Christ
They are not appointed by or sent by the apostles
 

theefaith

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No. You wouldn't be that obvious. No Little Birdy, you want to rob everyone of the scripture by arguing for extra Biblical writings that contradict scripture.

you really think dan 13 is some great catholic chapter? Or that it somehow contradicts other scripture? Where? How?

what authority to the tradition of men have to decide and how do you know it’s not scripture?
 

theefaith

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Negative. Your interpretation is filtered through your religion. The passages you cite do not support your view in the least.

The king always have a prime minister
And the people must be subject to them as was Joseph under pharaoh so is peter under Christ Isa 22:21-22 matt 16:18

you think Christ was lying?
Lk 10:16
He who hears you hears me...

John 13:20
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

Jn 20:21 as my father sent me, so send in you. (The apostles) posses the same power mission and authority as Christ!
Peter, the apostles and their successors!

Scripture too?


Lk 10:16
He who hears you hears me...

John 13:20
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

Jn 20:21 as my father sent me, so send in you. (The apostles) posses the same power mission and authority as Christ!
Peter, the apostles and their successors!

Spiritual Fathers have care for our souls!

Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Jn 21:17 feed my sheep:

Heb 13:7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.

Heb 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they care for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

1 Tim 1:2 Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.

Gal 4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you

1 John 2
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not.

That makes Paul and John spiritual fathers, pastors of our souls!
 

CadyandZoe

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you think Christ was lying?
Little Birdy, I think you are attempting to defend your religious beliefs with reason, which as I said earlier, is impossible. In the process you are, perhaps inadvertently, attempting to deceive others.

Our Lord Jesus Christ taught his disciples to believe those whom he sent. The question is, whom did he send? He also taught us to recognize those whom he sent saying, "you shall know them by their fruits." And we all recognize the fruits of the hateful birds that perch in the bell towers of your cathedrals. By contrast, your religion contradicts our Lord, suggesting that we shall know them by their office. This is antichrist.

Your beliefs are not rational beliefs otherwise you would defend them with reasons. Yet, you continue to ignore the issues I raise, while at the same time, repeating your dogma as one would repeat a script.

The Icons of your religion betray your claim that the leaders of your religion represent Jesus Christ.
I've been to a Catholic Church. I've seen the Catholic cross, depicting a man still hanging helpless and forlorn.

Have you never read, "He is risen! Go tell his disciples that Jesus Christ is risen from the dead!"

Wake up Little Birdy. It's getting late.
 

CadyandZoe

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you really think dan 13 is some great catholic chapter? Or that it somehow contradicts other scripture? Where? How?

what authority to the tradition of men have to decide and how do you know it’s not scripture?
You raise a good question, but I know you don't want to know the answer. Obviously, Little Birdy, your intent is to cast doubt on the reliability of the Bible. The assumption that lies below the surface of your question, like a shark ready to devour, is the idea that men decided which writings should be in our Bibles and which should be left out. If your beliefs were based on arguments, especially arguments you researched for yourself, you might argue that the traditions of men should be trusted because it was the traditions of men that decided which books to keep and which books to discard.

Ergo, the doctrine of Sola Scriptura is based on the apriori decision to trust in the traditions of men. But even if this were so, which I don't believe, the salient question becomes, "whom do you trust?" From your perspective, given your position, it would be unwise for you to accept the traditions of those men whom you didn't know personally or to accept the word of men who were of ill repute. Before you believed the Catholic dogma, did you research the lives of the men who first articulated your beliefs?

By contrast, consider my position. The locus of my believes is centered on the Holy Bible I have in my possession, and the character of the men who wrote it is exemplary. As Peter said, by the time he wrote his second letter, we have all that we need to live a godly life and partake in the divine nature. In other words, the man whom you claim to be the first pope is the one who said that we need nothing else from him, let alone from pretenders who come thousands of years later.

You are wasting time. It's getting late.
 

CadyandZoe

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where does the Bible say that the apostles died out?
Where does the Bible say that one should keep mustard in the refrigerator? I think it is obvious that the apostles are no longer alive.

Jesus said, "lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” This remains true for all of his followers whether they have a Bible or not. Suppose a man, a follower of Jesus, became stranded on an island where ships or boats never land. And suppose he spends his entire life on the island, without a Bible, without a priest, but believing and trusting in God as he survives his ordeal. He survives knowing that his hope is built on that eternal promise, "lo, I am with you always."

Suppose an astronaut is on his way to Mars, and due to an accident, his ship veers off course and he is lost in space until his water and his food run out. His hope is built on that same eternal promise, "lo, I am with you always."

This promise has been the comfort and hope for all believers throughout time, those unjustly imprisoned, those stranded and lost to civilization, and those ministering to the lost in far away places -- separated from family and friends. Our God is a personal God, with whom we have a person-to-person relationship. Even if we were called to sit naked in a cell in prison, without clothing let alone without a Bible, we would continue to hear our master's voice tell us: "Don't give up. It's only temporary. Life awaits. Lo, I am with you always."

Why would you think Jesus meant to say, "I will give the church apostles always"?

What else can I say Little Birdy except to ask, does Jesus know you?
 

Ronald Nolette

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where does the Bible say that the apostles died out?

that’s not what the Bible and Christ say
Matt 28:19-20 I am with you (the apostles) in until the end when Christ returns

there is one new covenant
One church
One kingdom

apart from that is a spiritual anarchy of heretics

One church- Just not one sect. And not every member of the sect you believe is th eone true church saved!
 

theefaith

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Little Birdy, I think you are attempting to defend your religious beliefs with reason, which as I said earlier, is impossible. In the process you are, perhaps inadvertently, attempting to deceive others.

Our Lord Jesus Christ taught his disciples to believe those whom he sent. The question is, whom did he send? He also taught us to recognize those whom he sent saying, "you shall know them by their fruits." And we all recognize the fruits of the hateful birds that perch in the bell towers of your cathedrals. By contrast, your religion contradicts our Lord, suggesting that we shall know them by their office. This is antichrist.

Your beliefs are not rational beliefs otherwise you would defend them with reasons. Yet, you continue to ignore the issues I raise, while at the same time, repeating your dogma as one would repeat a script.

The Icons of your religion betray your claim that the leaders of your religion represent Jesus Christ.
I've been to a Catholic Church. I've seen the Catholic cross, depicting a man still hanging helpless and forlorn.

Have you never read, "He is risen! Go tell his disciples that Jesus Christ is risen from the dead!"

Wake up Little Birdy. It's getting late.

we may live in the power of the resurrection but we must conform to his passion and death until he returns

1 cor 11:26

Jn 12:32

gal 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
 

theefaith

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Also rev 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.