Is the Word of God only found in scripture?

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Mungo

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he Apocrypha were formally canonized by the Roman Catholic 'Church' on April 8, 1546 A.D. at the Council of Trent. The Council of Trent was actually a series of 3 Church councils held between 1545 and 1563 A.D. and dominated by the newly-formed
The Apocrypha
watch.pairsite.com/apocrypha.html

  1. 6. The Apocrypha, The Septuagint LXX, and the Canon
    6. The Apocrypha, The Septuagint LXX, and the Canon
    Not until 1546

Question:
Again I question your dates. You say that the Catholic Church added the "Apocryphal" books to the Bible in 1546 AD. I'm assuming you are talking about the Council of Trent, the Church's response to the Reformation.

You are correct in saying that the Church affirmed that the "Apocryphal" books are Scripture. However, you are incorrect to say that these were not considered Scripture or were not in the Bible before this date. The Gutenberg Bible, which was printed in the 1450's, contained these extra books. The Council of Rome in 382 declared the Greek Septuagint (Greek translation of the Old Testament) to be Scripture, this included those extra books. At this same council they declared the 27 books of the New Testament that we have to be Scripture. Not to mention that the Orthodox Church uses the "Apocryphal" books, and they were separated from the Catholic Church a few hundred years before the Council of Trent in 1546. So how did they get the books? I also point to the evidence that the early Christian church used the Greek Septuagint as their scriptures. The Apostles and Christ quoted from the Septuagint. So did many Church fathers.

I guess this is where we differ. the Roman church used the Septuagint while others used the Hebrew text. The Hebrew bible does not contain these books and were affirmed as Scripture at Trent. The Septuagint is a translation and also several copies contained some the psudipigrapha of the jews which were rejected by Rome. the early church did not recognize thiese books as much. It wasn't until the church was "gentlized" and greek took over Hebrew that the apocryphal books took on their high popularity.

To quote from Illuminators's post #24 to which you made no response.
"The Protestants attempt to defend their rejection of the deuterocanonicals on the ground that the early Jews rejected them. However, the Jewish councils that rejected them (e.g., School of Javneh (also called “Jamnia” in 90 – 100 A.D.) were the same councils that rejected the entire New Testament canon. Thus, Protestants who reject the Catholic Bible are following a Jewish council that rejected Christ and the Revelation of the New Testament.

DEUTEROCANONICAL BOOKS IN THE NEW TESTAMENT - Scripture Catholic"
 

Ronald Nolette

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To quote from Illuminators's post #24 to which you made no response.
"The Protestants attempt to defend their rejection of the deuterocanonicals on the ground that the early Jews rejected them. However, the Jewish councils that rejected them (e.g., School of Javneh (also called “Jamnia” in 90 – 100 A.D.) were the same councils that rejected the entire New Testament canon. Thus, Protestants who reject the Catholic Bible are following a Jewish council that rejected Christ and the Revelation of the New Testament.

DEUTEROCANONICAL BOOKS IN THE NEW TESTAMENT - Scripture Catholic"


Well that is funny, because there was no new testament canon in 980-100
Ad Johns writings were not even completed yet!

but having read the apocryphal books and being a former diligent catholic, I know about them. tjhey were excluded from the deuterocanonical writings for two major reasons:

1. th eones written in the intertestamental period- there was no prophet in th eland from Malachi until John the Baptist.

2. they contain material that stands in contradiction to the rest of Scriptural teaching. And No I can't recall most of whatr is in contradiction.

but I do use the four Maccabees for they are good history of the times of the Grecian reign over Israel.
 

Mungo

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Well that is funny, because there was no new testament canon in 980-100
Ad Johns writings were not even completed yet!

but having read the apocryphal books and being a former diligent catholic, I know about them. tjhey were excluded from the deuterocanonical writings for two major reasons:

1. th eones written in the intertestamental period- there was no prophet in th eland from Malachi until John the Baptist.

2. they contain material that stands in contradiction to the rest of Scriptural teaching. And No I can't recall most of whatr is in contradiction.

but I do use the four Maccabees for they are good history of the times of the Grecian reign over Israel.

980-100? Stange.
What evidence do you have that John dies after 980?

And as usual you provide no evidence for your wild claims.
 

theefaith

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You misapply Matt. 16:18

Matt. 18:18 is for church discipline- not making doctrine or deciding what is or is not. thje Apostles are bound by God, they had no free reign.

Once again you misapply John 20- that also is for church discipline.

when one receivesd Christ as Savior-- all their sins are forgiven eternally. no one can take back the forgiveness of sin that jesus gives a believer. those sins are forever removed even the futrure ones.




not to add, subtract or create new doctrines apart from the work of the Spirit.




Last I looked ferrisbueller is not God.

he’s one of youre guys
Where does the Bible say for disciple?

matt 16:18 whatsoever all is included in their authority
 

theefaith

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You misapply Matt. 16:18

Matt. 18:18 is for church discipline- not making doctrine or deciding what is or is not. thje Apostles are bound by God, they had no free reign.

Once again you misapply John 20- that also is for church discipline.

when one receivesd Christ as Savior-- all their sins are forgiven eternally. no one can take back the forgiveness of sin that jesus gives a believer. those sins are forever removed even the futrure ones.




not to add, subtract or create new doctrines apart from the work of the Spirit.




Last I looked ferrisbueller is not God.

matt 16:18 whatsoever means anything and everything does not say discipline
But the two edged sword of the authority of Christ to define the truth and to condemn all errors
 

DPMartin

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example: of the word of God not in the Bible alone!

Lk 3:2 Annas and Caiaphas being the high priests, the word of God came unto John the son of Zacharias in the wilderness.
Or
1 cor 11:23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:

these are divine revelation!
Inspired by the Holy Spirit!
And the word of God!

why do some only accept them after they are written down?

they are divine revelation and the inspired word of God when they were received, and when they were taught to the people, and when they were written down! Why only accept them in the written form or “Bible alone”???

Where does Christ or scripture say that all the divinely reveled truths are in scripture?
Where does Christ say what is and what is not scripture?

granted the Word of God made all that was made. so all of the Word of God is not documented in scripture, but, scripture is for the education and conformation that something is of God or the Truth of God. if its contrary to scripture, its in error.
 

theefaith

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granted the Word of God made all that was made. so all of the Word of God is not documented in scripture, but, scripture is for the education and conformation that something is of God or the Truth of God. if its contrary to scripture, its in error.

Is dan 13 part of “all scripture”
Have you read it’s story of susan’s great faith
 

Ronald Nolette

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he’s one of youre guys
Where does the Bible say for disciple?

matt 16:18 whatsoever all is included in their authority

I know you hate to keep things in context but the context is church discipline. It is for discipline and not for disciples, though disciples can be disciplined by the elders.

Who is one of my guys.
 

Ronald Nolette

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matt 16:18 whatsoever means anything and everything does not say discipline
But the two edged sword of the authority of Christ to define the truth and to condemn all errors

Well once again context of statements matter so let us look at the context:

Matt. 16:
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Men can only establish what god through the Spirit inspires. Peter had no authority other than the authority of Christ. He is not free to do as he pleased and make it doctrine.

You need to do a bible study on what binding and loosing is.

And once again Peter is not the rock upon which the church is built. The statement "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the Living God" is the rock upon which the church is built.

Peter= petros which is a stone
rock= petra which is a ledge or nmassivew boulder or rock mountain. This is a grammar tool known as word play
 

theefaith

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Well once again context of statements matter so let us look at the context:

Matt. 16:
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Men can only establish what god through the Spirit inspires. Peter had no authority other than the authority of Christ. He is not free to do as he pleased and make it doctrine.

You need to do a bible study on what binding and loosing is.

And once again Peter is not the rock upon which the church is built. The statement "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the Living God" is the rock upon which the church is built.

Peter= petros which is a stone
rock= petra which is a ledge or nmassivew boulder or rock mountain. This is a grammar tool known as word play

you can be with the early church and the saints or with the heretical fundamentalists

not both
 

theefaith

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How exactly do you administer a kingdom on a confession?

or govern a church on a confession

Hebrews 13:17
Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

God always establishes order in obedience to hierarchical authority of fathers! Heb 13:17

Protestantism is a sin against the Christian virtue of obedience!
(Spiritual anarchy)
 

theefaith

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No the apostles do not act apart from christ Jn 15:5


Ephesians 5:24
Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ...
 

Ronald Nolette

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How exactly do you administer a kingdom on a confession?

or govern a church on a confession

Hebrews 13:17
Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

God always establishes order in obedience to hierarchical authority of fathers! Heb 13:17

Protestantism is a sin against the Christian virtue of obedience!
(Spiritual anarchy)

Paul said follow Him as he followed Jesus. I do not give blind obedience to any hierarchy. I am a Berean who checks out what an elder says before obeying it.

And Jesus Himselof said to call no man on earth Father for we have but one Father wqho is in heaven. and no you can call daddy father it is talking about spiritual fathers.

Well I cannot speak for all protestant denominations, but I teach obedience with a fierce passion!
 

theefaith

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Paul said follow Him as he followed Jesus. I do not give blind obedience to any hierarchy. I am a Berean who checks out what an elder says before obeying it.

And Jesus Himselof said to call no man on earth Father for we have but one Father wqho is in heaven. and no you can call daddy father it is talking about spiritual fathers.

Well I cannot speak for all protestant denominations, but I teach obedience with a fierce passion!

obedience to what authority?

Matt 23:9
Call no man Father?

Is this an absolute requirement?
Or is Our Savior condemning pride and spiritual pride of the Pharisees?

God calls men father!

Ex 3:6 Moreover he said, I am the God of thy fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.

Jesus calls men father!

Jn 6:49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.

Mary calls men father!

Lk 1:55 As he spake to our fathers, to Abraham, and to his seed for ever.

Peter calls men father!

Acts3:13 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go.

The stephen calls men father!

Acts 7 Stephen quotes the fathers over and over!

The Bible calls men father!

Luke 16:24
And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.


Acts 3:13
The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go.


Then there is spiritual fathers!

Spiritual Fathers have care for our souls!

Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Jn 21:17 feed my sheep:

Heb 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they care for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

1 Tim 1:2 Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.

Gal 4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you

1 John 2
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not.

That makes Peter, Paul and John spiritual fathers, pastors of our souls!

Isa 22 the administrator of the kingdom is called father, so the same for Peter, the apostles, and their successors!

Jesus Christ continues HIS ministry in His new covenant church thru Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Acts 1:17 acts 8:31 & 35 acts 9:4 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 15:5 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20

Lk 10:16
He who hears you hears me...

John 13:20
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

Jn 20:21 as my father sent me, so send in you. (The apostles) posses the same power mission and authority as Christ!
Peter, the apostles and their successors!


Eph 3: 14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,

15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,

every family in heaven and on earth is named from the “Father.” We are fathers in the Father.

Acts 7:2; 22:1, 1 John 2:13 – elders of the Church are called “fathers.” Therefore, we should ask the question, “Why don’t Protestants call their pastors “father?”

1 Cor. 4:17 – Paul calls Bishop Timothy a beloved and faithful “child” in the Lord.

2 Cor. 12:14 – Paul describes his role as parent over his “children” the Corinthians.

Phil. 2:22 – Paul calls Timothy’s service to him as a son serves a “father.”

1 Thess. 2:11- Paul compares the Church elders’ ministry to the people like a father with his children.

1 Tim. 1:2,18; 2 Tim. 1:2-3 – Paul calls Timothy his true “child” in the faith and his son.

Titus 1:4 – Paul calls Titus his true “child” in a common faith. Priests are our spiritual fathers in the family of God.

Philemon 10 – Paul says he has become the “father” of Onesimus.

Heb. 12:7,9 – emphasizes our earthly “fathers.” But these are not just biological but also spiritual (the priests of the Church).

1 Peter 5:13 – Peter refers to himself as father by calling Mark his “son.”

1 John 2:1,1 John 2:13,14 – John calls the elders of the Church “fathers.”

Isa 22:21-22 the prime minister who administer the kingdom under the king in the line of david Lk 1:32-23 has the title father and hold the keys Matt 16:18
 

theefaith

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Mungo

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And once again Peter is not the rock upon which the church is built. The statement "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the Living God" is the rock upon which the church is built.

Peter= petros which is a stone
rock= petra which is a ledge or nmassivew boulder or rock mountain. This is a grammar tool known as word play

Although in ancient Greek the distinction may have been significant, by NT times the two words were interchangeable. Moreover it would have been inappropriate for Peter to have been called by the feminine petra rather than the masculine petros. In addition there was a word in regular use for stone (lithos – see Jn 19:13)

More importantly Jesus did not call Peter either Petra or Petros but the Aramaic Kephas. (meaning Rock). So the above would have been “you are Kephas, and on this kephas I will build my Church”.

We know this because in John 1:42 Jesus renames Peter from Simon to Kephas (Rock)
Jesus looked at him and said, “You are Simon the son of John; you will be called Kephas”
Renaming someone is always significant in the Bible.

St. Paul refers to Kephas in 8 places in both his first letter to the Corinthians and in his letter to the Galations. For example:
“and that he appeared to Kephas, then to the twelve.” (1Cor 15:5)
“Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to confer with Kephas” (Gal 1:18)
“and when James and Kephas and John, who were acknowledged pillars” (Gal 2:9)