Is There Any Hope for the Unsaved Dead?

[Ronald Nolette]

All, after the judgment of Adam, do die. However, all who have died without having faith in Jesus, have been judged ALREADY unto condemnation (eternal death), which is the 2nd death. KJV John 3:18.
The proof of that is Rom. 8:9, Phillippians 4:3 and Rev. 20:15. Absolutely no one is going to get into the KoG/Heaven by performing good works alone.
There are NO second chances!!

I agree! I do not believe in salvation after death.

 

[Scott Downey]

I have wondered about the second resurrection, ie, the resurrection of the wicked.
I figured, they are dead, why bother to bring them back to life? Is it just to kill them again? hmmmmm

However, this thought crossed my mind....the billions of people who have lived in bygone eras who have had no or scant understanding of the beauty of God's character (let's say the whole pagan world) ....will they just be wiped out? Seems pretty unfair to me considering that the incarnation was God's method of revealing himself (his character) to fallen mankind......a humbling which no other god in the pantheon of gods man has created is comparable.

Could it be that somehow they too will get the opportunity to see the beauty of character of our creator?
That said, seeing does not necessarily equate to believing .....but they will see so that as Paul says, none will be with excuse?

They are resurrected out of hell fire to face judgement. They are judged for the works they did in their bodies. not any faith did they have in Christ or they would not be judged here. They have already been in hell for some time. The people are in hellfire for good reasons.

If their names are not found written in the Book of Life of the Lamb, then the holy angels cast them into the Lake of Fire.
Yes God is a fair and righteous judge, God goes by what He already said in His word about those who have no faith in the Son. They do not see life, the wrath of God abides on them who believe not. It does not matter what the circumstances are.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Where are the “wheat”? Not in any of the churches of Christendom, who worship a different God to the one Jesus worships even now. After his return to heaven, Jesus still calls his Father, “my God”....but according to Christendom, Jesus IS God......so does he worship himself in heaven? (Rev 3:12)

The churches are not publicly condemning the things that the Bible identifies as unChristian behavior. Any who dare to speak up about such things, are accused of being “anti” something, so they largely remain silent. Is that what Jesus taught us to do?
Allowing these behaviors into their congregations, puts them at odds with the God they claim to worship. His standards do not change.

My assumptions are based on speaking with many church members in my local community, and other communities I have lived in before.
I have been doing my own "survey" for many years.
You forget, that JW's call on people of all faiths, and have been doing so for over 100 years. We are a global family who have removed ourselves from "Babylon the great." Most in Christendom have no idea that they are even trapped in that place. Ask them what "Babylon the great" is....and how they are to obey Revelation 18:4-5. Crickets.....
The great commission (Matthew 28:19-20) is not a recommendation to participate in if you want to....it was a command...it is the will of the Father that, as part of the sign of the end times...."this good news of the Kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come." It is the very basis for judgment....the only "witness" they will get before God brings this entire world system crashing down.

Where are the churches in fulfilling what Jesus commanded?....MIA.

you say this only because you are ignorant of teh true church and what it does. Yes it is found within Christendom, but we stand out. We are following the one true God and have accepted His only means of salvation.

We have missionaries in every country on the globe so you need to expand your horizons and stop believein gevery lie the Watchtower indoctrinates you with about truew Christianity and what we do.

 

[Scott Downey]

“Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.”
Hey, you know what, that is a bible verse describing the truth for those who are justified by faith through His blood.

Top 7 Bible Verses About God’s Wrath

Here are 7 Bible verses about the wrath of God that I hope will see how seriously God looks upon sin. Romans 1:18 “For the wrath of God is revealed from

www.patheos.com

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Apply that to yourself.....you seem clueless outside of Christendom’s party line. Makes me wonder if you have done any Bible study outside of your own limited view. The whole Bible is God's word, not just the isolated verses that seem to confirm your own beliefs.

Well I read and study Scripture daily. I do not have a denomination . I am in an independent local church, but I do know of denominations that are for th emost part saved.

I would love to go toe to toe with you on bible knowledge.

For it is you who read the Bible only through the dark glasses of the Watchtower.

Yes the whole bible is gods word and the whole bible is inspired by god, butr not all passages are equally applicable to all people at all time. but you should know that if you were a student of the bible.

Can you see? Some are raised to life and others are raised to judgment....so these are “the dead, great and small”, being judged according to their “works”......It’s not a judgment on what they did before they died, because they have ‘paid sin’s wages’ and “at death one is acquitted of sin”. (Rom 6:7, 23) There was no higher penalty under God law than death.....no one was ever tortured or burned as a punishment.
The dead are in "hades" but the incorrigibly wicked are in "gehenna". How anyone can translate these two words to mean the same thing is beyond me. Like "soul" and "spirit"...these are not interchangeable either.

hades and gehenna can be interchangeable, depending on the context. And no soul and spirit are two distinct parts of the trichotomous humn of body, soul and spirit.

Read it again....”the sea” gave up its dead...but so did “Hell”......so which “hell” is this? It’s “hades”...not “Gehenna”.
And how are these judged? “According to their works”....so what these people “did” was the basis of their judgment, not simply what they said they believed.

Well hell has become a common euphemism for the lake of fire, but that is technically biblically incorrect. Gehenna is the lake of fire and hell for the lost is the place of torments which is a holding place until they are reunited with their bodies to be cast alive into the lake of fire to suffer forever.

Jesus answered their parable, or illustration. And he did so according to Jewish scripture....and there is no Jewish scripture that teaches immortality of the soul. It is a Greek adoption, not a Bible teaching at all.

You are wrong but that would take Hebrew and grammar lessons for you.

What you are taking literally in Revelation, is metaphorical. The whole book is full of symbolisms.

No it is not. There are many symbolic passages in revelation, but the Watchtoewer has no authority to tell teh world what is literal and what is figurative.

If God takes no pleasure even in the death of the wicked, why would he then torture them in flames forever?
That is not the God of Jesus Christ, whom he so faithfully represented in his human form on earth.

What you are doing here is trying to mix, emotion, philosophy and alter scripture by it. God said He will it is not a metaphor or symbolic. It is literal and you will see.. Time will show the Watchtower is a liar and false prophet, no matter how nice they appear.

 

[Behold]

Not only the living will benefit in the Millennium and have an opportunity for the earthly salvation.

Reader,

There is no 2nd Chance to go to heaven, found in Hell.
And its the Devil's lie to teach that Hell can be escaped.
Being found in Hell after you die, is proof that you are eternally separated from God, which is why you are there.

Let me show you why you will never get out of hell, never get out of the lake of fire, and will exist in this torment, that is the 2nd death.
There is no release from it, there is no relief from it.
Once you are there, after you die, you stay there for as long as God lives.

First..

God requires FAITH to give you the new birth.
"all that BELIEVE"
Jesus said that If you BELIEVE in Him, He'll give you eternal life.

But here is the situation.... you have to believe without SEEING, as faith is not faith if you can see it.
You have to believe in JESUS by FAITH, and FAITH is not faith if you can see it., regarding Christianity.

Once you are in Hell, you will KNOW for certain that "its all real".. as you will be in HELL and that is not Faith, that is reality.
IN HELL you wont need any faith to know that Jesus is real.
See that?
So, everyone in HELL, right now, Believes, because they SEE IT, and that is not FAITH.
Everyone that went to hell today, yesterday, and tomorrow, ALL BELIEVE NOW.
There is not one unbeliever in Hell......NOT ONE !!., Yet they all went there as UNBELIEVERS.

John 3:36

They ALL believe in Jesus now, same as the Devil.


See...God only saves you when you believe without SEEING, as that is FAITH, and there is no Salvation without FAITH.
And FAITH is to believe in what you can't SEE.


2nd.

There is no Cross of Christ in Hell.
There is no blood atonement offered in Hell.
The CROSS was raised on EARTH,. Jesus died for your sin on EARTH..... and you have to BELIEVE in Jesus while you are ON EARTH and still breathing.
Its too late to do that after you die.. You have to do it NOW, TODAY., while you are alive.

2 Corinthians 6:2

There is no 2nd Chance to believe in Hell, as once you are there, you will SEE that its all true, and that is not faith.

There are NO born again person in hell, and there is no way to become born again in hell.

There are no born again believers in Hell.
There are no unbelievers, never born again, in Heaven.

Listen reader...
Do not listen to a Satanic Cross Rejecting son of the Devil if they tell you that you can go to hell and get saved later, while you are there.

= You CANT !!.

 

[RR144]

Reader,

There is no 2nd Chance to go to heaven, found in Hell.

Ah, so you think there are only two choices, Heaven and Hell. Tell me, what is the Millennial Kingdom for? And where will this Kingdom be situated?

 

[Jack]

Ask the rich man in Luke 16.

 

[Scott Downey]

Ah, so you think there are only two choices, Heaven and Hell. Tell me, what is the Millennial Kingdom for? And where will this Kingdom be situated?

Christ casts out of HIS kingdom all things that offend. So there will not be any wicked living in it.

Matthew 13
36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away and went into the house. And His disciples came to Him, saying, “Explain to us the parable of the tares of the field.”

37 He answered and said to them: “He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one. 39 The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels. 40 Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age.

41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!

 

[Aunty Jane]

you say this only because you are ignorant of teh true church and what it does. Yes it is found within Christendom, but we stand out. We are following the one true God and have accepted His only means of salvation.

I was actually raised in Christendom and my search for God involved investigating many other denominations and religions.....I did not find the God of Jesus Christ in any of them. Fortunately for me, even though I lost faith in the church and religion in general, I never lost faith in God and always had the utmost respect for his word.....the churches like to give the appearance of “Christianity” but they are basically clueless even in the most fundamental Bible teachings....not to mention the disunity. (1 Cor 1:10)

So many have unanswered questions.... and actually find them to be unanswerable. Who can pretend that its OK to not know the answers to the most important questions....like....
Who is God?
What is his relationship to Jesus? Are they really just one person in two forms joined later by a third? Did Jesus teach this?
Do we have an immortal soul that goes somewhere else at death?
Is there a hell of eternal fiery torment?
I wanted to know the answers to these important questions and Christendom simply made up its answers based on pagan ideas rather than the Bible.....and grafted them into ambiguous scripture, trying to make them say what they never did.

My first issue was the Lord’s Prayer....heard every week in church, parroted off by the congregation as if repeating the words meant something to God, (like the “hail Mary’s” and “our Father’s” endlessly repeated in Roman Catholicism)....the words just before the Lord’s Prayer are somehow completely ignored....

Matthew 6:6-9....(ASV)
“But when you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you. “And when you pray, do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do, for they think that they will be heard for their many words. Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him. Pray then like this:

“Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name.....” and we all know the rest.

This was to be the model for our own prayers, not something to be endlessly and mindlessly repeated....but more importantly it was the order and importance of what Jesus taught us to pray for.....For his Father’s name to be “hallowed” (sanctified)...and yet God’s holy name is not mentioned in any church I have been to. On a rare occasion, you may see it in a hymn, but it is not known by the majority who are taught that the divine name of God, is "Jesus".
Next was for God’s Kingdom to “come” and for his “will to be done on earth as is in heaven”.....so what does that mean? No one ever told me.
So what is God's Kingdom, and how does it "come" so that God's will is done on earth as it is in heaven'...?
When I ask people what God's kingdom is.....often they will say its heaven....or they will just give me blank embarrassed stare.
Unless you know what God's Kingdom is...how it comes....and what its purpose is, how are you supposed to preach to others about it?
Jesus said it would be preached in all the world (Matthew 24:14)...how can that happen if y'all cant even tell us exactly what it is?

Well I read and study Scripture daily. I do not have a denomination . I am in an independent local church, but I do know of denominations that are for th emost part saved.

Well, I guess you "read and study Scripture daily" according to how you want to read it as an individual...? This is what makes "non-denominationalism" a convenient fantasy for those who don't want to be told what to believe......y'all just read the Bible and put your own meaning to it....it doesn't matter if you don't all agree because the truth is lost in a multitude of interpretations......is that how Christianity was to spread into the world? Or is that how the "weeds" were spread in the world?

Were people free to put their own spin on scripture in the first century? Isn't that why we see Christendom fractured into so many bickering factions, whilst trying to pretend that you are all one body (except the ones who aren't) ....all approved by Jesus, (except the ones who aren't) and all going to heaven.....? (except the ones who aren't) What a shamozzle! Any wonder that the "many" will be rejected even though they believe they have it all right. (Matt 7:21-23)

I would love to go toe to toe with you on bible knowledge.

And what would that accomplish? Your toe against my toe? You have already demonstrated how limited your Bible knowledge is, except in those areas where you think you are an expert....the scriptures you ignore are actually more telling than the ones you quote.

Yes the whole bible is gods word and the whole bible is inspired by god, butr not all passages are equally applicable to all people at all time. but you should know that if you were a student of the bible.

I am fully aware of the way scripture is designed to trap people in their own errors. The devil can quote scripture too....it doesn't make him a Christian though, does it?

hades and gehenna can be interchangeable, depending on the context.

Nonsense......and this is how you show your complete ignorance of their meaning as the Bible presents them, not as Christendom and Judaism have interpreted them....two religious systems that were hijacked by the devil and became apostate......mirror images of one another.

The Bible is one story with one author who never contradicts himself. The story itself is not complicated until men began to introduce their own traditions and adoptions from pagan ideas, just as the Jews did in the centuries before Christ came....and Christendom did exactly the same thing. Matthew 15:7-9 is merely history repeating.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

So many have unanswered questions.... and actually find them to be unanswerable. Who can pretend that its OK to not know the answers to the most important questions....like....
Who is God?
What is his relationship to Jesus? Are they really just one person in two forms joined later by a third? Did Jesus teach this?
Do we have an immortal soul that goes somewhere else at death?
Is there a hell of eternal fiery torment?
I wanted to know the answers to these important questions and Christendom simply made up its answers based on pagan ideas rather than the Bible.....and grafted them into ambiguous scripture, trying to make them say what they never did.

Wow! even out grammar school kids in my church know how to answer those questions. You must hit a run of apostate churches in this apostate age.

My first issue was the Lord’s Prayer....heard every week in church, parroted off by the congregation as if repeating the words meant something to God, (like the “hail Mary’s” and “our Father’s” endlessly repeated in Roman Catholicism)....the words just before the Lord’s Prayer are somehow completely ignored....

Matthew 6:6-9....(ASV)
“But when you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you. “And when you pray, do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do, for they think that they will be heard for their many words. Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him. Pray then like this:

Here I agree with you. Lots of dead churches that have a form of godliness but deny the power and use vain repitions without depth of meaning to their soul.

This was to be the model for our own prayers, not something to be endlessly and mindlessly repeated....but more importantly it was the order and importance of what Jesus taught us to pray for.....For his Father’s name to be “hallowed” (sanctified)...and yet God’s holy name is not mentioned in any church I have been to. On a rare occasion, you may see it in a hymn, but it is not known by the majority who are taught that the divine name of God, is "Jesus".
Next was for God’s Kingdom to “come” and for his “will to be done on earth as is in heaven”.....so what does that mean? No one ever told me.
So what is God's Kingdom, and how does it "come" so that God's will is don on earth as it is in heaven'...?
When I ask people what God's kingdom is.....often they will say its heaven....or they will just give me blank embarassed stare.
Unless you know what God's Kingdom is...how it comes....and what its purpose is, how are you supposed to preach to others about it?
Jesus said it would be preached in all the world (Matthew 24:14)...how can that happen if y'all cant even tell us exactly what it is?

Once again , grammar school kids in my church could have answered this for you.

Well, I guess you "read and study Scripture daily" according to how you want to read it as an individual...? This is what makes "non-denominationalism" a convenient fantasy for those who don't want to be told what to believe......y'all just read the Bible and put your own meaning to it....it doesn't matter if you don't all agree because the truth is lost in a multitude of interpretations......is that how Christianity was to spread into the world? Or is that how the "weeds" were spread in the world?

Well as you are the guilty one here, I take your comment as a badge of honor. Seeing as you don't me or my testimony, you just fill in teh blanks with whatever you think may be correct. so far you are batting near zero.

Nonsense......and this is how you show your complete ignorance of their meaning as the Bible presents them, not as Christendom and Judaism have interpreted them....two religious systems that were hijacked by the devil and became apostate......mirror images of one another.

And you show your blind devotion to whatever the Watchtower tells you it is supposed to mean- not what it does mean. I can defend my position biblically, linguistically and culturally- you only rely on whatever the watchtower vomits out and tells you to lap up!

 

[RR144]

Christ casts out of HIS kingdom all things that offend. So there will not be any wicked living in it.

And when was that Kingdom established?

 

[RR144]

Ask the rich man in Luke 16.

I can't, he's dead!

 

[Scott Downey]

And when was that Kingdom established?

We are talking about the future. You have phrased that question in error.
Peter was alive after the resurrection and Peter knew that part of the kingdom was in the future. This occurs when Christ returns a second time, which is still in the future.

2 Peter 3
4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

 

[Aunty Jane]

And no soul and spirit are two distinct parts of the trichotomous humn of body, soul and spirit.

Is this a reference to 1 Thessalonians 5:23?
CEV
"I pray that God, who gives peace, will make you completely holy. And may your spirit, soul, and body be kept healthy and faultless until our Lord Jesus Christ returns."

If so, again you demonstrate that you cannot read Scripture in context.
This is not saying what you think it is....
Who is addressed in 1 Thessalonians ch 5?
The chapter begins with.....
"Now concerning the times and the seasons, brothers, you have no need to have anything written to you. 2 For you yourselves are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, “There is peace and security,” then sudden destruction will come upon them as labor pains come upon a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. 4 But you are not in darkness, brothers, for that day to surprise you like a thief. 5 For you are all children of light, children of the day. We are not of the night or of the darkness. 6 So then let us not sleep, as others do, but let us keep awake and be sober."

This is addressed to the whole "body" of the Christian elect.....Paul is admonishing them as a body to have a healthy spirit and the soul or life of the body should be preserved faithful until the return of their Lord.
This is in no way a confirmation of any "trichotomous humn of body, soul and spirit" (whatever that is) because as Jews, these faithful men and women (brethren) understood what Paul was saying....and it had nothing to do with any threesome of the human being. He was addressing the collective.

Well hell has become a common euphemism for the lake of fire, but that is technically biblically incorrect. Gehenna is the lake of fire and hell for the lost is the place of torments which is a holding place until they are reunited with their bodies to be cast alive into the lake of fire to suffer forever.

You still have not provided scripture to confirm that statement.....what "holding place" can there be if there is no immortal soul in the first place?
First show us that there is an immortal "soul" in the Bible....then you can talk about souls being reunited with their bodies. Good grief!

You are wrong but that would take Hebrew and grammar lessons for you.

From you...No thanks....

No it is not. There are many symbolic passages in revelation, but the Watchtoewer has no authority to tell teh world what is literal and what is figurative.

Well that depends on who the "faithful and wise slave" is that Jesus appointed in this time of the end to "feed" his entire household their "food at the proper time" (Matthew 24:45).....its one household...all enjoying the same spiritual food....so who is feeding you? Or are you the faithful and wise slave? Won't it be fun to find out?

What you are doing here is trying to mix, emotion, philosophy and alter scripture by it. God said He will it is not a metaphor or symbolic. It is literal and you will see.. Time will show the Watchtower is a liar and false prophet, no matter how nice they appear.

I'm willing to wait and see, and we will definitely find out who is the believer of lies....Jesus will let us all know where we all stand.
It seems as if you do not see Jehovah as a God who has logical, non-contradictory things to teach us. It is the apostate "Christians" of the second century onward who blended emotion, philosophy and badly interpreted scripture into a contradictory mix that the majority imagines is real Christianity....This was prophesied to happen and yet very few "Christians" believe that it did......all we did was dismiss all that nonsense and go back to the beginning, eliminating all beliefs that failed to be backed up by the entirety of scripture.

Every scripture you post is completely misconstrued and misinterpreted.....and out of harmony with what our Jewish Messiah taught from the scripture inspired by his Father....before his earthy mission.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Wow! even out grammar school kids in my church know how to answer those questions. You must hit a run of apostate churches in this apostate age.

I have no doubt that answers may be provided...but are they true? You might think so, but does Jehovah agree with what you want to believe? Was it what Jesus taught? Do the scriptures really teach what you believe?
I used to believe them before I was prompted to ask questions.....but I saw the light of truth and now I see how dark all those beliefs really are.....none darker than 'hellfire'....what kind of a God would do that to his own children?

Well as you are the guilty one here, I take your comment as a badge of honor. Seeing as you don't me or my testimony, you just fill in teh blanks with whatever you think may be correct. so far you are batting near zero.

I'm "the guilty one"??? Guilty of what? Telling the truth? Then guilty as charged.

And you show your blind devotion to whatever the Watchtower tells you it is supposed to mean- not what it does mean. I can defend my position biblically, linguistically and culturally- you only rely on whatever the watchtower vomits out and tells you to lap up!

The Watchtower is a Bible Society....they print Bibles and Bible literature.....we are NOT the Watchtower.....if you are going to show your ignorance, then we know where its coming from....someone who hasn't got a clue about us, but judges us anyway. You come across as just a mindless hater.

So, don't we have to ask who are you blindly devoted to? Yourself? What vomit are you consuming in the belief that it is good solid spiritual food?
Let's allow Jesus to do his job...he is, after all the judge of us all.....OK?
Presumption has a way of biting us in the rear end if we get too cocky.....

 

[Ronald Nolette]

This is addressed to the whole "body" of the Christian elect.....Paul is admonishing them as a body to have a healthy spirit and the soul or life of the body should be preserved faithful until the return of their Lord.
This is in no way a confirmation of any "trichotomous humn of body, soul and spirit" (whatever that is) because as Jews, these faithful men and women (brethren) understood what Paul was saying....and it had nothing to do with any threesome of the human being. He was addressing the collective.

Wrong again! Yes He was addressing the church in Thessalonica as individuals and praying a blessing on them as individuals.

But Heb. 12:

22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

these just mewn are spirits already made perfect!

These are not the 144,000 because according to even the false doctrine of the Watchtower, the 144,000 is not even finished yet. The wroiter is talking about mostly all OT saints which would not be part of that mythical 144,000.

2 Corinthians 5:6-8

King James Version

​

6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

2 things you do not or refuse to see here:

1. Paul says that when a person is home in the body, they are absent from the Lord- so the person is more than just a BODY.
2. When we are absent
from the body we are home with the Lord. so a person will be apart from his body and present with the Lord.

See, I do know Sripture as written. what I do not know is the fanciful reinterpretations of the Watchtower.

You still have not provided scripture to confirm that statement.....what "holding place" can there be if there is no immortal soul in the first place?
First show us that there is an immortal "soul" in the Bible....then you can talk about souls being reunited with their bodies. Good grief!

Well there is an immortal soul.

Jesus agreed with the Jewish culture of the day when He spoke of the true account of Lazarus and the rich man.

Until Jesus died and physically rose, then fifty days later physically ascended into heaven, the Jews knew of the three compartments of sheol/hades/hell/grave.

1. Abrahams Bosom/Paradise: this is where the righteous dead went to await Jesus actually shedding His blood. They were taken to heaven when Jesus ascended as per Ephesians.

2. Tartarus: the place where the angels who left their first estate in Genesis 6 and Jude are bound awaiting the L:ake of fire.

3. the place of torments: Where the lost dead go when they di to await final casting into the lake of fire.

very scripture you post is completely misconstrued and misinterpreted.....and out of harmony with what our Jewish Messiah taught from the scripture inspired by his Father....before his earthy mission.

YOu are so used to understanding the bible only as the Watchtower tells you how to understand it, you no longer can tell when one is giving you the Word of God as written instead of interpreted.

Peters admonition about privately interpreting and twisting the Scriptures refers to man made organizations like the RCC and the Watchtower do. Thee Watchtower has modeled so much of its philosophy of religion just like the RCC did in the dark ages.

Are you saying you are Jewish by saying "our" Jewish Messiah? Maybe you should look at history and the teachings of Israel at the time of Jesus. You also forget that the place of the dead was not given to Israel by God until the time of David and Solomon. God di dnot reveal every truth from the beginning, but slowly through time kept introducing more and more truths to His covenanted people and then to the Apostles who passed them on to the church.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I have no doubt that answers may be provided...but are they true? You might think so, but does Jehovah agree with what you want to believe? Was it what Jesus taught? Do the scriptures really teach what you believe?
I used to believe them before I was prompted to ask questions.....but I saw the light of truth and now I see how dark all those beliefs really are.....none darker than 'hellfire'....what kind of a God would do that to his own children?

Are they true? Yes!

I'm "the guilty one"??? Guilty of what? Telling the truth? Then guilty as charged.

Yes you are the guilty one, and not of telling the Word of Gd as written. YOu simply parrot what the Watchtower reinterprets Gods Word. Just like the Catholics of old did.

The watchtower even stole the lie of the old RCC in saying the bible is an institutional book and only the institution has the right to interpret it!

The bible is not to be interpreted but accepted and obeyed!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

The Watchtower is a Bible Society....they print Bibles and Bible literature.....we are NOT the Watchtower.....if you are going to show your ignorance, then we know where its coming from....someone who hasn't got a clue about us, but judges us anyway. You come across as just a mindless hater.

So, don't we have to ask who are you blindly devoted to? Yourself? What vomit are you consuming in the belief that it is good solid spiritual food?
Let's allow Jesus to do his job...he is, after all the judge of us all.....OK?
Presumption has a way of biting us in the rear end if we get too cocky.....

Keep saying that and tap your heels three times and keep repeating: "There's no place like home". Jehovahs witnesses get their marching orders from teh Watchtower. You know it, JW's know it and true followers of Jesus like me know it. so you should really stop pretending like you don't know.

 

[quietthinker]

They are resurrected out of hell fire to face judgement.

ohhhh, you mean the judgement hasn't been passed yet? So much for innocent till proven guilty! or you mean God is itching to heap judgement upon judgement?.....what, because he loved them enough to die for but has had a change of mind?

At every point your logic breaks down and falls flat Scott.