It's about "relationship"...right?

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Phoneman777

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If that were true, 1/3 of the Angels would not have rebelled against God.
It's not a fact that the other 2/3 angels have met the divine standard perfectly all their existence? Ah yes, they have - despite the choices of the other 1/3, right or wrong?

Sorry, but your claim that only God can meet His divine standard fails with every single non-divine obedient angel. It's because they have God's spirit.

Therefore, there's no excuse for a Spirit-filled Christian to not meet the same standard, except that they choose to not meet it, right or wrong?
 

Phoneman777

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Surely the memories are not pleasant I doubt he has forgotten them.
Yes, He probably has not...so why does the OSAS crowd claim salvation is a License to Sin? Is not a License permission to engage in behavior for which the unlicensed will suffer punishment? Two fishermen standing next to each other in a stream, one licensed and the other unlicensed. What will happen to them if the Game Warden shows up?

That's EXACTLY how the OSAS crowd claims salvation applies to the saved and the lost.
 

Wrangler

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It's not a fact that the other 2/3 angels have met the divine standard perfectly all their existence?

No. It is supposition on your part as a desperate attempt to create a Strawman, for reasons that are not entirely clear.

Ah yes, they have - despite the choices of the other 1/3, right or wrong?

Except for all the times I was wrong, I have always been right also. The desperateness of your position grows with each passing sentence you write.

Sorry, but your claim that only God can meet His divine standard fails with every single non-divine obedient angel

Wrong. You cannot just disregard facts inconvenient to your argument. That disobedient angels exist tell the story of their nature. Again, 'Except for all the times I was wrong, I have always been right also.'

Being right one time does not make one right all the time. Angels are divine, by definition, but not deities; they are 'of God' but not God.
 

Phoneman777

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No. It is supposition on your part as a desperate attempt to create a Strawman, for reasons that are not entirely clear.
WHAT STRAWMAN? YOU SAID ONLY GOD CAN "MEET THE STANDARD" AND I REFUTED THAT SILLY IDEA BY POINTING OUT THAT 2/3 OF THE ANGELS HAVE MET THAT STANDARD SINCE THEIR CREATION.. AND ANGELS AIN'T DIVINE; THEY'RE CREATURES LIKE US.
 

Wrangler

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WHAT STRAWMAN? YOU SAID ONLY GOD CAN "MEET THE STANDARD" AND I REFUTED THAT SILLY IDEA BY POINTING OUT THAT 2/3 OF THE ANGELS HAVE MET THAT STANDARD SINCE THEIR CREATION..

That is the Strawman. Except the Angels that didn’t meet the standards is your Strawman that they did.
 

Blue Dragonfly's

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I'd rather my relationship with Jesus than live under a dictatorship

And stoning children for striking their parents? How's that enter in to the Christian walk of faith?

OT Jews were saved by faith. The killing of and that blood of innocent animals covered their sins.
Today, our sins are eternally under the blood of Jesus.
 
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Phoneman777

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That is the Strawman. Except the Angels that didn’t meet the standards is your Strawman that they did.
I don't think you understand what the meaning of "strawman" is. A "strawman argument" is when - during a debate - a person falsely attributes a statement to another, then proceeds to argue against that statement in the attempt to place the other person in a negative light.

However, when you say we cannot "meet God's standard" because we are not God...and I show you that it's not necessary to be God to meet His standard and I point to the 2/3 MORTAL, CREATED ANGELS as evidence...

...that's not a strawman argument, but good 'ol fashioned reason/logic.
 
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Blue Dragonfly's

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I don't think you understand what the meaning of "strawman" is. A "strawman argument" is when - during a debate - a person falsely attributes a statement to another, then proceeds to argue against that statement in the attempt to place the other person in a negative light.

However, when you say we cannot "meet God's standard" because we are not God...and I show you that it's not necessary to be God to meet His standard and I point to the 2/3 MORTAL, CREATED ANGELS as evidence...

...that's not a strawman argument, but good 'ol fashioned reason/logic.
''Mortal created angels"?
 

Wrangler

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I don't think you understand what the meaning of "strawman" is. A "strawman argument" is when - during a debate - a person falsely attributes a statement to another, then proceeds to argue against that statement in the attempt to place the other person in a negative light.

However, when you say we cannot "meet God's standard" because we are not God...and I show you that it's not necessary to be God to meet His standard and I point to the 2/3 MORTAL, CREATED ANGELS as evidence...

...that's not a strawman argument, but good 'ol fashioned reason/logic.

Feel free to educate yourself on the meaning of a strawman argument by referencing your favorite dictionary or website on such matters. It is not merely a false statement but a weaker argument. (It has nothing to do with casting the arguer in a negative light. That is Ad Homenim.) Many argue intertwined fallacies simultaneously. In your case, besides Strawman, you also invoke Appeal to Diversion, noted below with a D.
STRAWMAN ARGUMENT #1: Stating 'it's not necessary to be God to meet His standard.' My original comment was about man, not angels. Man is not perfect and cannot meet the divine standard on their own merit by God's design (to have a relationship through his servant, Jesus).
STRAWMAN ARGUMENT #2, D: Except the 1/3 of Angels that aren't perfect, Angels are perfect?!
STRAWMAN ARGUMENT #3, D: Supposing the 2/3 of Angels that did not rebel with Satan against God are perfect is supposition. Where do you get this idea from? What is the authorititave reference?
STRAWMAN ARGUMENT #4, D: Invoking the notion that angels are mortal is irrelevant to my statement.​

I'm not sure what your motive is to argue or to invoke these lines of fallacious reasoning. I imagine you'll double down again. Your 2/3 is good enough to be perfect is absurd on it's face.
 

michaelvpardo

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High-sounding platitudes - we hear them constantly. Where once was powerfully preached and gladly heard echoed a plain "thus saith the Lord" is now filled with a cacophony of shallow religious colloquialisms and sound bites...and Christians of today's largely backslidden church "love to have it so" (Jeremiah 5:31 KJV). One of the most popular of these is "It's not about religion, but about relaaaaationship". Fine, then. What were perhaps the two most important things Jesus referred to in teaching us about what constitutes a proper relationship with God? about how He relates to us and how we are to Him?

Children and marriage.

So, what did God say was to be the fate of Israelite children who strike their parents? Stoned to death. Yet, somehow the OSAS crowd which makes up the majority of Christianity today ignores this divine revelation of God's uncompromising will that solemn reverence for parents be in the heart of every child, young or old, that by this they may also learn to reverence Him -- and instead, spit in their heavenly Father's face and "crucify the Son of God afresh and put Him to an open shame" by willfully sinning against Him after receiving a knowledge of the truth (Hebrews 10:26 KJV). They believe grace somehow cripples His justice and makes His bark worse than His bite - that the fresh nails of sin they drive daily into the hands and feet of Jesus will go unnoticed in the day of Judgment.

So, what does the Bible say about the marital obligations of the husband and wife? That the man (or woman) who commits adultery is a fool who will end up lost (Proverbs 6:32 KJV). Yet, somehow the OSAS "faithful" think God is satisfied with presumptuous, deliberate, habitual unfaithfulness to His Ten Commandments, while they themselves will slap even a one-time unfaithful spouse with divorce papers and remarry before the ink has a chance to dry.

Sure, it's about "relationship" alright - one of double standards and selfish terms. Is that the kind of relationship we are to have with the One Who had every right to abandon us with that first bite of forbidden fruit, but instead at that moment began a long journey to what would be the ultimate, infinite sacrifice for our redemption - even if not a single soul would have been touched by His grace and surrendered their heart to Him?
"And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent." John 17:3
You can only know someone by relationship with them.
 

Phoneman777

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"And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent." John 17:3
You can only know someone by relationship with them.
100% agree. Will only those who don't know Jesus be told to depart from Jesus?
 

michaelvpardo

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100% agree. Will only those who don't know Jesus be told to depart from Jesus?
I'm not omniscient and scripture doesn't say, but we are exhorted not to go beyond what scripture actually says. Speculation is interesting but proof of nothing. It does however, reveal what's in our hearts and becomes a cause for judgment (not to condemnation, but to loss.)
 
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Phoneman777

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I'm not omniscient and scripture doesn't say, but we are exhorted not to go beyond what scripture actually says. Speculation is interesting but proof of nothing. It does however, reveal what's in our hearts and becomes a cause for judgment (not to condemnation, but to loss.)
It's not going beyond Scripture to say that there will be those who were saved that will hear Jesus tell them to depart - Matthew 24:12-13 KJV plainly speaks of saints who allowed widespread iniquity to turn their agape cold, which is a far more spitworthy spiritual condition than the merely "lukewarm" Laodicean saints who will be spit out of Jesus' mouth.
 

ChristisGod

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Wrong - the only laws that pertained only to Israel we’re the Mosaic laws of ceremonies and sacrifices which pointed to Jesus. It was, is, and always will be wrong to break the Ten Commandments - they existed long before Israel.
Salvation has always been based upon whether we accept Jesus in our heart - good or bad performance is merely the outward evidence of our inward choice (1 John 2:3-4 KJV)
We we’re always intended to be holy, just, and good and we may do “all things through Christ” including perfection “even as your Heavenly Father is perfect”.
The holy angels aren’t divine, yet they meet the standard perfectly, so your idea only gods can meet it fails here.

As for us, IN OUR FALLEN STATE we are helpless to meet it - in our UPRIGHT CHRISTIAN STATE we are “more than conquerors” - anyone who argues we can’t meet God’s standard of righteousness inadvertently calls God a liar because it’s not a matter of our obvious lack in skill but of whether we surrender our will - Jesus supplies all the skill we need once we
True - it’s the goodness of God that leads us to confess and repent, otherwise we’d have no idea we’re headlong toward destruction - just look around at the unchurched world and see for yourself.
Can you point me to the verse that says salvation is the following :

" accept Jesus in your heart " ?

thanks
 

michaelvpardo

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It's not going beyond Scripture to say that there will be those who were saved that will hear Jesus tell them to depart - Matthew 24:12-13 KJV plainly speaks of saints who allowed widespread iniquity to turn their agape cold, which is a far more spitworthy spiritual condition than the merely "lukewarm" Laodicean saints who will be spit out of Jesus' mouth.
Well, maybe. Matthew 24:12-13 doesn't identify the "many" as saints, you have.
 

Phoneman777

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Can you point me to the verse that says salvation is the following :

" accept Jesus in your heart " ?

thanks
Colossians 1:27 KJV

“…Christ IN you, the hope of glory”.
“…and the truth (Jesus) is not in him (the presumptuous sinner).”
“If any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him.”
 

Phoneman777

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Well, maybe. Matthew 24:12-13 doesn't identify the "many" as saints, you have.
It absolutely does identify these "many" as saints, right there in verse 12.

Hint: Compare to 1 John 5:3 KJV and Romans 8:7 KJV.
 

Phoneman777

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Not in the few dozen translations I have. You do know that love isn't the sole possession of Christians, right?
Eros, phileo, storge? Sure, all people know that...but only the saints of God can demonstrate "agape" which is by happily keeping the commandments of God (1 John 5:3 KJV; Romans 8:7 KJV). This is precisely why the "many" in Matthew 24:12 KJV are "saints" which won't "endure to the end" and wind up "saved" like the saint in verse 13.