James Was Not Talking about Faith in Jesus Christ for Salvation

[praise_yeshua]

You're annoying with your constant mind-reading. But I'm not angry.

I have no interest in arguing just to argue.

Either teach me,how to know the true revelation of God or stop wasting my time.
Please explain how you know what is the Inspired word of God? I really want to know the truth!
If I have believed in lies, then explain what I need to learn.
I already know to study.
I want to study the true revelation of God.
Now tell me what that is, and how you know this?

I'm not "mind reading". I'm going by exactly what you say. What have I said that is wrong? List them.

Why should I believe you will not accept anything I say. You've proven that you will not. I doubt your sincerity given how you've acted toward me.

Canoncity is a complex subject. You should start by researching the historical establishment of the canon over time. I recommend you start with the Muratorian Fragment.

You can build out from there. I can't provide you with everything I've learned on the subject in the last 30 plus years. It will be a journey for you. There are far too many novices in this world all trying to gather "followers".....

Don't follow me. Follow Jesus Christ and seek knowledge concerning historical Christianity.

 

[Titus]

I'm not "mind reading". I'm going by exactly what you say. What have I said that is wrong? List them.

Why should I believe you will not accept anything I say. You've proven that you will not. I doubt your sincerity given how you've acted toward me.

Canoncity is a complex subject. You should start by researching the historical establishment of the canon over time. I recommend you start with the Muratorian Fragment.

You can build out from there. I can't provide you with everything I've learned on the subject in the last 30 plus years. It will be a journey for you. There are far too many novices in this world all trying to gather "followers".....

Don't follow me. Follow Jesus Christ and seek knowledge concerning historical Christianity.

I'm in total agreement that how we got the Bible is a complex subject.
I know it needs alot of explanation that's why I would like to do a private study with you at your leisure.
You can teach me how much, and whenever you like.

Heres the big problem,

Let's say we're together in public.

And we both come across an individual that is genuinely wanting to know the truth.
How do you teach someone how to be saved?
If God has not preserved His word as you teach.
Then are you going to take weeks, months explaining to them, what is the true revelation of God?

I dont have this issue.
I will tell them the king James Bible is reliable.
But with some minor eerors.
The errors are not a real issue because we know every error in the translation.

If we did not know there were errors in English translations, now that would be a serious problem. But we do,

 

[praise_yeshua]

I'm in total agreement that how we got the Bible is a complex subject.
I know it needs alot of explanation that's why I would like to do a private study with you at your leisure.
You can teach me how much, and whenever you like.

Heres the big problem,

Let's say we're together in public.

And we both come across an individual that is genuinely wanting to know the truth.
How do you teach someone how to be saved?
If God has not preserved His word as you teach.
Then are you going to take weeks, months explaining to them, what is the true revelation of God?

I don't have this issue.
I will tell them the king James Bible is reliable.
But with some minor eerors.
The errors are not a real issue because we know every error in the translation.

If we did not know there were errors in English translations, now that would be a serious problem. But we do,

1. If the person asked me if the NT was reliable. I would say yes.
2. If the person asked me if the Protestant canon was reliable, I would say there is issues in all canons.

I would then proceed to tell them how reliable the words of Jesus are and why. I would tell them how reliable the words of Paul are and why.

We don't need the book of James to win anyone to Jesus Christ. The early church didn't have it. James wasn't part of the canon until the 4th century. Even then, there was no such thing as a wide dispersion of James throughout the known world.

As I've told you. I'm not going to do all the work for you. I have given you enough to study yourself. If you get it yourself, you will believe it. Stop letting others believe for you. That includes ME.......

If you have specific questions along the way, make them public so anyone can learn in the process. People are far too reliant upon men.

I'll give you an example of how things "work" in this modern age of nonsense....

I was evangelizing in 90s with Yahoo Messenger and I won a Muslim to Jesus Christ that was in the Middle East. At least "I thought I did". He immediately wanted me to spend the rest of my life dedicated to his "discipleship". He told me....

"I'm now your disciple"..... which made my heart sink. It is not that I don't mind teaching others.... but I'm not anyone's disciple. Jesus Christ is. If you're born again, you have the Spirit of God and He will teach you. All you have to do is feed yourself with Spiritual things. Jump "head first" into Christianity and consume all the information you can. Don't be afraid of information. Most "pastors" try their best to be the "sole" source of information to their assembly. As such, their "disciples" do nothing more than "wither away"......

 

[Titus]

1. If the person asked me if the NT was reliable. I would say yes.
2. If the person asked me if the Protestant canon was reliable, I would say there is issues in all canons.

I would then proceed to tell them how reliable the words of Jesus are and why. I would tell them how reliable the words of Paul are and why.

We don't need the book of James to win anyone to Jesus Christ. The early church didn't have it. James wasn't part of the canon until the 4th century. Even then, there was no such thing as a wide dispersion of James throughout the known world.

As I've told you. I'm not going to do all the work for you. I have given you enough to study yourself. If you get it yourself, you will believe it. Stop letting others believe for you. That includes ME.......

If you have specific questions along the way, make them public so anyone can learn in the process. People are far too reliant upon men.

I'll give you an example of how things "work" in this modern age of nonsense....

I was evangelizing in 90s with Yahoo Messenger and I won a Muslim to Jesus Christ that was in the Middle East. At least "I thought I did". He immediately wanted me to spend the rest of my life dedicated to his "discipleship". He told me....

"I'm now your disciple"..... which made my heart sink. It is not that I don't mind teaching others.... but I'm not anyone's disciple. Jesus Christ is. If you're born again, you have the Spirit of God and He will teach you. All you have to do is feed yourself with Spiritual things. Jump "head first" into Christianity and consume all the information you can. Don't be afraid of information. Most "pastors" try their best to be the "sole" source of information to their assembly. As such, their "disciples" do nothing more than "wither away"......

Interesting,
I need you to tell me if there are any other writers other than James that are not Inspired?

You believe in Jesus and Paul.
Who else

 

[praise_yeshua]

Interesting,
I need you to tell me if there are any other writers other than James that are not Inspired?

You believe in Jesus and Paul.
Who else

Do you really care or are you just "digging"?

What Jesus said is true and more than enough to save anyone.

What Paul taught and preached is more than enough to save anyone.

James doesn't do anything but complicate the discussion. Even then, I'm fine with dealing with it. I will tell them the truth. I would tell them that a Catholic Council decided that James should be included even though it was written in the 2nd or 3rd century. I would tell them the same is not true of the Synoptic Gospels and Epistles of Paul, Peter, John, and etc. I can tell THEM exactly why.

You don't know why. You will lie to them and tell them that there are only a few nonessential errors in the KJV Bible when you've been plagued by one your entire life....

The Truth sets FREE.....

You've been bound by a "ruler" in your "local church" from the beginning.

How is that going for you? You're still searching for the truth because you're not getting it where you're at now......

 

[L.A.M.B.]

Repentance is the act of changing your heart and mind ,thinking like the Father.

I would say some repentance would be in order and a giant bath in the waters of brotherly love!

Outside these forums very little light shines when they read the sins purported BELIEVERS commit against one another.

Silience would definitely be golden just as words fittly spoken are like apples of gold in pitchers of silver !

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You are incorrect about initial salvation.
No one was saved by belief without obedience. Not one example in all the bible teaches this.

You are incorrect about James' teachijg.
James taught salvation comes only by an obedient faith, James 2:14 ; 2:24-26.

James gives us the example of Abraham being saved by faith and obedience to Gods commandments.

James 2:21
Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac on the altar?
-23
And the scripture was fulfilled which says, Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him for righteousness. And he was called the friend of God.

James is quoting Genesis 15:6,
And he believed in the Lord and He accounted it to him for righteousness.

Did Abraham become righteous in the eyes of God by doing nothing? Just belief?
No, His faith was justified made perfect because he believed then obeyed God!

Genesis 22:12,
And God said, Do not lay your hand on the Lad, or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God since you have not withheld your son, your only son from Me.

Abraham's faith was accounted as righteousness because it had obedient works!

Genesis 26:5,
Because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.

It was an obedient faith that saved Abraham.
If Abraham only believed God but never obeyed Gods commands to leave his homeland.
God would have never said in Genesis 15:6 that Abraham's faith was accounted as righteousness.

Did Abraham do nothing before Genesis 15:6? Just believe?
No, With his faith he obeyed God.

Genesis 12:1-20 obedience not faith only
Genesis 13:1-18 obedience not faith only
Genesis 14:1-24 obedience not faith only

Genesis 15:6 God tells Abraham because of his faith with works of obedience, God accounts his faith as righteousness.

No one is justified or made righteous by God with belief and no obedience ie faith alone.

James 2:19,
You believe there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe (alone) and tremble.

Nowhere did I say that a person is saved without obedience. Obedience to believing in Jesus as one’s Savior (John 6:35), and believing the gospel message in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 (Which is being Initially Saved by God’s grace). I also believe in obedience in the Sanctification Process after one is saved by God’s grace. But obedience is not always a form of works with God. Nor is our obedience to a command. There are Grace Commands to believe in the Savior and there are Sanctification Commands. Grace Commands or obedience to believing in Jesus is a process of salvation that is not works based. Your not doing anything major when you throw yourself down upon the mercy of Jesus Christ.

 

[Titus]

Do you really care or are you just "digging"?

What Jesus said is true and more than enough to save anyone.

What Paul taught and preached is more than enough to save anyone.

James doesn't do anything but complicate the discussion. Even then, I'm fine with dealing with it. I will tell them the truth. I would tell them that a Catholic Council decided that James should be included even though it was written in the 2nd or 3rd century. I would tell them the same is not true of the Synoptic Gospels and Epistles of Paul, Peter, John, and etc. I can tell THEM exactly why.

You don't know why. You will lie to them and tell them that there are only a few nonessential errors in the KJV Bible when you've been plagued by one your entire life....

The Truth sets FREE.....

You've been bound by a "ruler" in your "local church" from the beginning.

How is that going for you? You're still searching for the truth because you're not getting it where you're at now......

O, no,
That's more mind reading on your part.
I know the truth.
But, if you really could show me what I believe is really not Gods revelation, then I would change my beliefs immediately.

You have said things to me already I know are incorrect.

You don't realize you are in reality denying the inspiration of Gods Holy word.

I'm glad you chose Paul's teachings as being Inspired.
You need to consult Paul on his proclamation about the new testament,
2TIMOTHY 3:16-17,
All scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,

James like all new testament writers was an eyewitness to Jesus ressurection,
1Corinthians 15:6-7,
After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep.
-7 after that He was seen by James, then by all the apostles.

Why would James not believe in his brother Jesus?
The scriptures teach James was an eyewitness to Jesus after His death.
That made James a believer that his brother is the Messiah.

1Corinthians 2:12-13,
Now we have not received the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.
These things we also speak not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

No doubt James was Jesus' brother,
Galatians 1:19
But I saw none of the other apostles except James, the Lords brother.

Matthew 13:55,
Is this not the carpenters son?
Is not His mother called Mary? And His brothers called James, Joses, Simon, and Judas?

Peter singled James out among other christians,
Acts 12:17,
But motioning them with his hand, to keep silent, he declared to them how the Lord had brought him out of the prison. And he said, Go tell things to James and to the brethren. And he departed and went to another place.

James makes the deciding speech at the Jerusalem council,
Acts 15:13-22,
And after they became silent, James answered, saying Men and brethren listen to me:
-19
Therefore I(James) judge that we should not trouble those from among the Gentiles who are turning to
God.

The apostle Paul says that James is one of the pillars of the Lords ministry
Galatians 2:9,
And when James , Cephas and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that had been given to me, they gave me Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we should go to the gentiles and they to the circumcision.

Paul approved of James' gospel preaching to the jews.

Who was James' book addressed to?
James 1:1
James a bondservant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ,
To the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad. Greetings.

Paul approved of James ministry with the Jews.
That makes you and Paul at odds with one another on Jesus' brother James.

If you really believe Paul is Inspired, then you should accept that Paul approves of James teaching the Jews.

 

[Titus]

Nowhere did I say that a person is saved without obedience. Obedience to believing in Jesus as one’s Savior (John 6:35), and believing the gospel message in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 (Which is being Initially Saved by God’s grace). I also believe in obedience in the Sanctification Process after one is saved by God’s grace. But obedience is not always a form of works with God. Nor is our obedience to a command. There are Grace Commands to believe in the Savior and there are Sanctification Commands. Grace Commands or obedience to believing in Jesus is a process of salvation that is not works based. Your not doing anything major when you throw yourself down upon the mercy of Jesus Christ.

Obedience cannot be faith only salvation friend.

If obedience is involved and it is.
Then no one is saved by belief and no works.

Faith is a work, John 6:28-29

 

[Titus]

Sanctification Commands. Grace Commands or obedience

Please use the Bible to teach your doctrine of commandments being grace commandments and sanctification commandments.
Where does the bible teach such?

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Go read where the Ephesians obeyed the gospel in Acts 19:1-7.
You will learn the Ephesians did not get saved by faith only.
In fact they did not receive the Holy Spirit until after they were baptized!

Ephesians 2:8-9 is teaching no works of merit save man.
Not that no works of any kind play a part in salvation.
Gods works save us. Therefore we are saved by works.

Ephesians 2:10
For we are His workmanship created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared before hand that we should walk in them.

Right, Christ fulfilled the Law for us. Grace is much more than unmerited favor.
I posted recently a thread about the depth of Grace by which we are saved.
GRACE ... is more than unmerited favor!

 

[praise_yeshua]

O, no,
That's more mind reading on your part.
I know the truth.
But, if you really could show me what I believe is really not Gods revelation, then I would change my beliefs immediately.

You have said things to me already I know are incorrect.

You don't realize you are in reality denying the inspiration of Gods Holy word.

I'm glad you chose Paul's teachings as being Inspired.
You need to consult Paul on his proclamation about the new testament,
2TIMOTHY 3:16-17,
All scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,

James like all new testament writers was an eyewitness to Jesus ressurection,
1Corinthians 15:6-7,
After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep.
-7 after that He was seen by James, then by all the apostles.

Why would James not believe in his brother Jesus?
The scriptures teach James was an eyewitness to Jesus after His death.
That made James a believer that his brother is the Messiah.

1Corinthians 2:12-13,
Now we have not received the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.
These things we also speak not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

No doubt James was Jesus' brother,
Galatians 1:19
But I saw none of the other apostles except James, the Lords brother.

Matthew 13:55,
Is this not the carpenters son?
Is not His mother called Mary? And His brothers called James, Joses, Simon, and Judas?

Peter singled James out among other christians,
Acts 12:17,
But motioning them with his hand, to keep silent, he declared to them how the Lord had brought him out of the prison. And he said, Go tell things to James and to the brethren. And he departed and went to another place.

James makes the deciding speech at the Jerusalem council,
Acts 15:13-22,
And after they became silent, James answered, saying Men and brethren listen to me:
-19
Therefore I(James) judge that we should not trouble those from among the Gentiles who are turning to
God.

The apostle Paul says that James is one of the pillars of the Lords ministry
Galatians 2:9,
And when James , Cephas and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that had been given to me, they gave me Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we should go to the gentiles and they to the circumcision.

Paul approved of James' gospel preaching to the jews.

Who was James' book addressed to?
James 1:1
James a bondservant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ,
To the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad. Greetings.

Paul approved of James ministry with the Jews.
That makes you and Paul at odds with one another on Jesus' brother James.

If you really believe Paul is Inspired, then you should accept that Paul approves of James teaching the Jews.

Well. I see you left and Googled for a few minutes......to find your answer instead of starting at the beginning and working your way forward. Again. You are too lazy to start with a "foundation" and build thereupon.

Just because you read the name of "James" in the NT doesn't mean that the James you're referencing is the one that wrote the book titled "James".....

If this your ONLY criteria, then you should accept the Gospel of Thomas.

There are at least three James mentioned in the NT.......Most everyone accepts there are least two James mentioned in the NT. James the Lesser and James The Greater.

You conflated all these to be the same person solely based upon a "First Name" reference.

I know you go by Titus here. I know you're not the real Titus mentioned in the Bible because you're nothing like him......

We call this a "Pseudonym". Ironic, your very use of Titus here proves your mistake........

It was common in the centuries after the death of the apostles for others to pretend they were various disciples of the apostles. Some took it upon themselves to "pretend" to be someone they were not.

Much like you do here. You're not Titus. No one believes you are Titus. It doesn't matter if we read "Titus" in the NT or not. You are too unlearned and unskilled to be Titus.......

I mean seriously.....

Do you know that Jesus's name is actually "Joshua" in English? In fact, your preference in the KJV conflates the name of Jesus with Joshua in

Heb 4:8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.

Oh the irony.....

You wouldn't know this because it takes years to actually build a proper theology. Everyone thinks they're a "Google Theologian" these days.....

 

[Titus]

Well. I see you left and Googled for a few minutes......to find your answer instead of starting at the beginning and working your way forward. Again. You are too lazy to start with a "foundation" and build thereupon.

Just because you read the name of "James" in the NT doesn't mean that the James you're referencing is the one that wrote the book titled "James".....

If this your ONLY criteria, then you should accept the Gospel of Thomas.

There are at least three James mentioned in the NT.......Most everyone accepts there are least two James mentioned in the NT. James the Lesser and James The Greater.

You conflated all these to be the same person solely based upon a "First Name" reference.

I know you go by Titus here. I know you're not the real Titus mentioned in the Bible because you're nothing like him......

We call this a "Pseudonym". Ironic, your very use of Titus here proves your mistake........

It was common in the centuries after the death of the apostles for others to pretend they were various disciples of the apostles. Some took it upon themselves to "pretend" to be someone they were not.

Much like you do here. You're not Titus. No one believes you are Titus. It doesn't matter if we read "Titus" in the NT or not. You are too unlearned and unskilled to be Titus.......

I mean seriously.....

Do you know that Jesus's name is actually "Joshua" in English? In fact, your preference in the KJV conflates the name of Jesus with Joshua in

Heb 4:8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.

Oh the irony.....

You wouldn't know this because it takes years to actually build a proper theology. Everyone thinks they're a "Google Theologian" these days.....

Haha,
More mind reading.

You think you know complete strangers.

I've know the scriptures since a child.

ust because you read the name of "James" in the NT doesn't mean that the James you're referencing is the one that wrote the book titled "James"

All the passengers I referenced are Jesus ' brother,


Attacking the name my father and mother gave me, haha!
You're are silly sir.
I did not name myself.

I know you go by Titus here. I know you're not the real Titus mentioned in the Bible because you're nothing like him...

Never claimed to be the Titus of the book.
How could the writer of Titus be alive today, more silliness.

The apostle Paul says that James is one of the pillars of the Lords ministry
Galatians 2:9,
And when James , Cephas and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that had been given to me, they gave me Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we should go to the gentiles and they to the circumcision.

Paul approved of James' gospel preaching to the jews.

Paul approves of Jesus' brother.
This James is the James, that wrote James.
Since you are such a good Bible student as you tell me. You know this already.

Now take up your objection with Paul. Paul approves of James ministry with the jews.

 

[Titus]

Provide evidence that the writer of James is the actually the brother of Jesus.

I don't believe your given name is Titus. Prove it.

Haha!
You are the one who claims he is not.
The burden of proof is on you!
You prove he is not!

Here is my Dad , this is Titus' Dad His mother and me named him Titus C. M. Dorn.

Now I know you probably wont believe my 83 year old father typed that, but it is his texting to you.

At this point I do believe you have some mental problems Sir.
It is childish to even make an issue about not believing who someone says they are.

So, silly to be arguing with me about this. How old are you?

 

[praise_yeshua]

Haha!
You are the one who claims he is not.
The burden of proof is on you!
You prove he is not!

Here is my Dad , this is Titus' Dad His mother and me named him Titus C. M. Dorn.

Now I know you probably wont believe my 83 year old father typed that, but it is his texting to you.

At this point I do believe you have some mental problems Sir.
It is childish to even make an issue about not believing who someone says they are.

So, silly to be arguing with me about this. How old are you?

Good. There is more evidence for your name than what you have for the authorship of James.....

Can you get a text from the father of James?

There is no evidence that James is actually the brother of Jesus. Which is why it was included in the earliest canonical lists. It was not widely accepted until after the 4th century.

Do you see how this is going?

You know some Scripture but you do not know how the choice was made to include it in your choice of canon. Google isn't helping you at all.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Haha!
How old are you?

You're such a "nice guy"...... Still angry because someone is challenging your beliefs.....

 

[Titus]

Good. There is more evidence for your name than what you have for the authorship of James.....

Can you get a text from the father of James?

There is no evidence that James is actually the brother of Jesus. Which is why it was included in the earliest canonical lists. It was not widely accepted until after the 4th century.

Do you see how this is going?

You know some Scripture but you do not know how the choice was made to include it in your choice of canon. Google isn't helping you at all.

I use the scriptures to show that James is said to be the brother of Jesus.
I believe what the scriptures teach.
You are going by men that are debating who they think James is.
You told me you don't let men tell you what to believe.

Now you are ignoring the passages I have already given that Jesus had a brother named James.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I use the scriptures to show that James is said to be the brother of Jesus.
I believe what the scriptures teach.
You are going by men that are debating who they think James is.
You told me you don't let men tell you what to believe.

Now you are ignoring the passages I have already given that Jesus had a brother named James.

You would "think" that this "James" would reference himself as the "brother of Jesus" in his own writing.

You will not find that in his writing. Both the internal and external evidence for this author being "James the brother of Jesus" isn't there.

Can you quote James where he references himself as the brother of James? If others sought to provide distinction for him, then you would think he would do it himself.......

See how this works...... You don't get this on "Google"....

 

[Titus]

You're such a "nice guy"...... Still angry because someone is challenging your beliefs.....

No apology for falsely accusing me of not being named Titus?

 

[praise_yeshua]

I use the scriptures to show that James is said to be the brother of Jesus.
I believe what the scriptures teach.
You are going by men that are debating who they think James is.
You told me you don't let men tell you what to believe.

Now you are ignoring the passages I have already given that Jesus had a brother named James.

Again. Your only connect is the name "James". There were more than one James in the early church. You're floundering.