Hi gang, nice to have a place to go to ask questions. I am doing a study on the return of Jesus, and I am trying to figure out where the Father is during all of the things that occur. It appears to me from the last few chapters of Revelation that the Father is on the Throne in heaven, then after the 1000 years the Father comes down in New Jerusalem on the throne, then man is allowed to go see the Father and dwell with him. From what I understand the Bible does not speak of the Father appearing, Jesus appears/comes and the Father moves from heaven inside New Jerusalem to the New Earth. I thank anyone for pointing things out to me as I am very eager to learn. Much blessing.
Jesus Return
- Thread starter garyfromvernon
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Jesus said to Philip that if you've seen Him, you've seen The Father, in John 14.
Where is Spirit? Nowhere? Everywhere? In Him we live, and move, and are. Jesus is the express image of the Invisible God. No man has or ever will see the Father and God of our Lord Jesus Christ. With what eyes do you perceive Spirit? Spiritual eyes, no doubt. Fleshly eyes would fry like eggs in a frying pan should God Himself appear. The Son is a man, and He is divine. He was begotten of God by the power of Holy Spirit.
Jn 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared [him].
Jesus never claimed to have seen the Father. Those kind of eyes do not exist. Spiritual discernment and awareness can only be figuratively expressed, since physical eyes cannot see God, and God is Spirit. As veteran quoted, he that has seen Me, has seen the Father. That's as far as it gets in the flesh.
As for the Consummation, when God the Father receives His Son's kingdom and the Lord subjects Himself to His God, after subduing ALL things unto Himself, then God will be All in all. Such a grand and unimaginable thing cannot be perceived, it must be experienced. And it is guaranteed to come to pass.
1C 15:27-28 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under [him, it is] manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
The Throne in the New Jerusalem is reserved for the Son of David. It is God's Son Who rules and reigns on earth doing His Father's will. As long as there is an earth, the Son of Mankind is its rightful Ruler. When all has been accomplished during that period, then comes the Consummation of the ages, and God becomes All in all.
fivesense
Might want to do more Bible study...
Dan 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, Whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of His head like the pure wool: His throne was like the fiery flame, and His wheels as burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before Him: thousand thousands ministered unto Him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
(KJV)
Isa 9:6
6 For unto us a Child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon His shoulder: and His name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
(KJV)
Dan 7:13
13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before Him.
(KJV)
IKing 22:19
19 And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on His throne, and all the host of heaven standing by Him on His right hand and on His left.
(KJV)
Isa 6:1-5
1 In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and His train filled the temple.
2 Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly.
3 And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of His glory.
4 And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke.
5 Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts.
(KJV)
Gen 32:30
30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.
(KJV)
Exod 24:9-10
9 Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel:
10 And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under His feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness.
(KJV)
Exod 33:20-23
20 And He said, Thou canst not see My face: for there shall no man see Me, and live.
21 And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by Me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:
22 And it shall come to pass, while My glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with My hand while I pass by:
23 And I will take away Mine hand, and thou shalt see My back parts: but My face shall not be seen.
(KJV)
Dan 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, Whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of His head like the pure wool: His throne was like the fiery flame, and His wheels as burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before Him: thousand thousands ministered unto Him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
(KJV)
Isa 9:6
6 For unto us a Child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon His shoulder: and His name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
(KJV)
Dan 7:13
13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before Him.
(KJV)
IKing 22:19
19 And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on His throne, and all the host of heaven standing by Him on His right hand and on His left.
(KJV)
Isa 6:1-5
1 In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and His train filled the temple.
2 Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly.
3 And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of His glory.
4 And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke.
5 Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts.
(KJV)
Gen 32:30
30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.
(KJV)
Exod 24:9-10
9 Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel:
10 And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under His feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness.
(KJV)
Exod 33:20-23
20 And He said, Thou canst not see My face: for there shall no man see Me, and live.
21 And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by Me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:
22 And it shall come to pass, while My glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with My hand while I pass by:
23 And I will take away Mine hand, and thou shalt see My back parts: but My face shall not be seen.
(KJV)
The God of Israel is YHWH, the Creator. He is the express image of the invisible God,
Col 1:15-16 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Eph 3:9 And to make all [men] see what [is] the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ
No man has seen God. This is what the Holy Spirit recorded.
Jn 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared [him].
It was Jehovah, the Lord, who appeared in the so-called Old Testament. It was not God the Father. God has a mediator between Himself and men. God the Supreme One will never be visible to the physical eye. God is Spirit. pneuma ho theos (John 4:24). Jesus Christ is the emblem and visible image of the invisible God.
Do you suppose we should allow a the Prophets of the "O.T." to take precedence over God's latest revelations through His Holy Apostles and Prophets? .
fivesense
It can be frustrating trying to describe Jehovah God and Jesus Christ as being one yet are distinct.
Then in Revelation 19 we find this:
His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.
Go figure.
Then in Revelation 19 we find this:
His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.
Go figure.
It's like our Lord Jesus told Philip, that if he'd seen Him, he'd seen The Father.
As written in Genesis 1, God created man in His own image and likeness. Who really understands what that reveals about the image appearance of man? It reveals that the image of man began in the Heavenly, from God's Own Image and Likeness, not with the flesh form of Adam. This is why the meaning of the Archangel Gabriel's name means 'man of God', even though Gabriel has never been born through woman's womb.
I'm surprised at how so many today who profess belief on The Saviour Jesus Christ don't understand this. And that especially since Apostle Paul explained in detail about the resurrection body while declaring that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God (1 Cor.15).
So what kind of image likeness did our Lord Christ have BEFORE He was born through Mary's womb? Easy, the Image of God, Which is image likeness of man.
But what do the enemies of Christ believe about God's Image and Likeness? Through history of paganism, they've put forth the idea that God has no Form or Shape in the Heavenly, even that He is a non-entity like a force or power, with no specific Likeness. That doctrine is a lie, and is not an idea written in God's Word, as the verses I quoted well shows.
The pagan Gnostics and Neo-Platonists go even further with that idea of The Father being a shapeless Force only with no Image Likeness, for they claim that our Lord Jesus was but a flesh man like us that simply connected spiritually to that Force to become 'Christ', and that each one of us can also do what Jesus did. The mystical fraternity of the Rosicrucians call that connecting to 'Christ Consciousness', or 'Consciousness of the Cosmic'. They claim Buddha did it, as did Zoroaster, Krishna, Confuscious, Mohammed, etc. That's why the early Gnostics taught that our Lord Jesus did not actually die upon the cross, but that His disciples came and removed Him before He died, and that He lived to old age, even wedding Mary Magdalene and having flesh children. Those false prophets want us all to think we each can become our very own Christ by connecting with their god force idea. That pagan idea comes from the doctrine of Pantheism. Pantheism is about the idea that God is in everything, and everything is in God, and is God. This is why Apostle Paul pointed out in Romans 1 that kind of falseness produced false worship of the things in God's creation, instead of The Creator Himself.
We were warned about that false idea in the last days...
Dan 11:37-38
37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.
38 But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things.
(KJV)
As written in Genesis 1, God created man in His own image and likeness. Who really understands what that reveals about the image appearance of man? It reveals that the image of man began in the Heavenly, from God's Own Image and Likeness, not with the flesh form of Adam. This is why the meaning of the Archangel Gabriel's name means 'man of God', even though Gabriel has never been born through woman's womb.
I'm surprised at how so many today who profess belief on The Saviour Jesus Christ don't understand this. And that especially since Apostle Paul explained in detail about the resurrection body while declaring that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God (1 Cor.15).
So what kind of image likeness did our Lord Christ have BEFORE He was born through Mary's womb? Easy, the Image of God, Which is image likeness of man.
But what do the enemies of Christ believe about God's Image and Likeness? Through history of paganism, they've put forth the idea that God has no Form or Shape in the Heavenly, even that He is a non-entity like a force or power, with no specific Likeness. That doctrine is a lie, and is not an idea written in God's Word, as the verses I quoted well shows.
The pagan Gnostics and Neo-Platonists go even further with that idea of The Father being a shapeless Force only with no Image Likeness, for they claim that our Lord Jesus was but a flesh man like us that simply connected spiritually to that Force to become 'Christ', and that each one of us can also do what Jesus did. The mystical fraternity of the Rosicrucians call that connecting to 'Christ Consciousness', or 'Consciousness of the Cosmic'. They claim Buddha did it, as did Zoroaster, Krishna, Confuscious, Mohammed, etc. That's why the early Gnostics taught that our Lord Jesus did not actually die upon the cross, but that His disciples came and removed Him before He died, and that He lived to old age, even wedding Mary Magdalene and having flesh children. Those false prophets want us all to think we each can become our very own Christ by connecting with their god force idea. That pagan idea comes from the doctrine of Pantheism. Pantheism is about the idea that God is in everything, and everything is in God, and is God. This is why Apostle Paul pointed out in Romans 1 that kind of falseness produced false worship of the things in God's creation, instead of The Creator Himself.
We were warned about that false idea in the last days...
Dan 11:37-38
37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.
38 But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things.
(KJV)
Awesome answers, thanks everybody, this is a good place to learn. The reason I asked this question is because I was studing Titus 2:13 which reads "While we wait for the blessed hope- the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ". Some translations and some religious groups say it should really read "....the glorious appearing of our great God, and the Savior, Jesus Christ". In all the scriptures I can find, Jesus is appearing alone ,not with the Father, which would obviously mean Jesus is being called God in Titus 2:13. Under Grandville Sharp's rule it should read "our great God and Savior,Jesus Christ". C.Kuehne also found that Sharp's rule is without exeption in the N.T. So if Jesus is appearing alone without the Father, than this verse is referring to Jesus appearing and is calling him God.
The moment I read your topic, I said to myself that it hearkens back to understanding the trinity. The answer is contained therein.
Veteran did a bang up job of pointing out John 14:9. The Father makes appearances in most books of the Bible, but Christ is the sort of the liaison and human face to maybe try and put some understanding on it. We call God a 'He' and we imagine him to be much like a person since we were created in his image, but I think Christ is the figure that we can relate to. There are not words to convey the glory of the Father and I think that's why we're left with such short and rather ambiguous descriptions of him. He's always on the throne and always will be there.
Ezekiel makes for an interesting discussion when it comes to encounters with the Father (Ezekiel 1) and later the millennium (Ezekiel 40-48), but one of my favorites is the very last verse of the book:
[bible="Ezekiel 48:35"]
[It was] round about eighteen thousand measures: and the name of the city from that day shall be, The LORD is there.
[/bible]
We will dwell with God the Father, and what an awesome experience that will be.
Veteran did a bang up job of pointing out John 14:9. The Father makes appearances in most books of the Bible, but Christ is the sort of the liaison and human face to maybe try and put some understanding on it. We call God a 'He' and we imagine him to be much like a person since we were created in his image, but I think Christ is the figure that we can relate to. There are not words to convey the glory of the Father and I think that's why we're left with such short and rather ambiguous descriptions of him. He's always on the throne and always will be there.
Ezekiel makes for an interesting discussion when it comes to encounters with the Father (Ezekiel 1) and later the millennium (Ezekiel 40-48), but one of my favorites is the very last verse of the book:
[bible="Ezekiel 48:35"]
[It was] round about eighteen thousand measures: and the name of the city from that day shall be, The LORD is there.
[/bible]
We will dwell with God the Father, and what an awesome experience that will be.
You can read Ezekiel Chapter 1 for a clear description of the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the Lord. That is Glory of the Lord that fills the temple all the time riding on top of His chariott that takes Him around everywhere.
There are 4 cheribs under him, their wings hold up the firmament He is on. His throne is a sapphire stone. Think of that, a beauitful blue! Must be gorgeous to see!
That's the likeness man was created in, in that glory!!
Kim
There are 4 cheribs under him, their wings hold up the firmament He is on. His throne is a sapphire stone. Think of that, a beauitful blue! Must be gorgeous to see!
That's the likeness man was created in, in that glory!!
Kim
fivesense said:
That is where many go wrong in God's Word, for ALL of God's Word agrees with Itself. What God gave the Old Testament prophets to write will never disagree with what's written in the New Testament Books, and visa versa. This is why Christ's Apostles quoted directly from the Old Testament Books when declaring God's Truth in New Testament Books. Apostle Peter even admonished Christians to be mindful of what was written in the Old Testament prophets, even as Apostle Paul did the same with the idea of "ensamples".
We should beware of anyone who comes claiming the Old Testament Books are dead history and that they don't apply to all Christians today.
No one has made this statement. Be careful how you wield your weapons. Your devices continue to define you, for everyone to see. The mature and the graceful will make an allowance for it, but the minors and the young are being jeapordized. You have my prayers and understanding.
fivesense
You made the following statement:
fivesense said:
The idea that any part of God's Word should take precedence over its other parts is error. God's Word is to be taken as a whole, not in pieces, even as Apostle Paul showed...
2 Tim 3:16-17
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
(KJV)
AV Ro 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
AV Ro 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
AV Ro 16:17 . Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
AV 1Ti 1:3 As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine,
AV 2Ti 3:10 . But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience,
Paul was adamant in his demand that his teachings be followed in accordance with the truth delivered to him. The Lord told him his commission would be upheld and men would be judged according to the doctrine he received from the glorified Christ. Should anyone decide that preferring the teachings of the Bible outside of what Paul through Christ has written, it is to their own peril. They shall incur the just verdict of God for refusing the truth, and allowing vanity to replace faith for the platform of their beliefs.
The dispensing of God's plan for mankind during the "Old Testament" period were through the Hebrew people. Nothing in the "O.T." is spoken of us outside of being subservient to Israel. This is the Prophets' testimony. Should a Gentile whose faith is in the cross of Christ prefer to yoke themselves once again to that dispensation, they have made the cross of none effect. The gospel of the grace of God, and its connection to the nations, must have prime authority over the past teachings of Scripture, or the writings of Paul are nonsense, leaving men to decide for themselves whatever they wish to rule their spirits.
fivesense
Five, the problem is that you do not know who Israel is, and until you understand who Israel is you will have an incomplete understanding of Scripture.
Thank you for the counsel, Paul. Understanding of the Writings comes from above, from the Father of Lights, and His Son, whom we both serve. Pray for me to come to this understanding which is lacking in me. I solicit your prayers, and your attention is comforting to me.
fivesense
The false idea that The Gospel Paul preached among the Gentiles was a different Gospel than what Christ and His Aposltes preached is a doctrine of men who seek to cause divisions within Christ's many-membered Body, His Church.
Rom 9:24-26
24 Even us, whom He hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 As He saith also in Osee, I will call them My people, which were not My people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not My people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
(KJV)
That's Apostle Paul quoting from the Book of Hosea, an Old Testament prophet, and it's about Salvation going to the Gentiles also. There are many Old Testament Scriptures which declare it. The problem was that Israel as a whole was not given to understand it yet, not until it was revealed to both Peter and Paul in Acts, and, even to Philip...
Acts 8:30-35
30 And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?
31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.
32 The place of the scripture which he read was this, "He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth:
33 In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth."
34 And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man?
35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.
(KJV)
How is it that Philip was able to preach The Gospel of Jesus Christ to that Ethiopian using the example in bold from the Book of Isaiah? The Gospel of Jesus Christ did not begin with Apostle Paul. The Gospel of Jesus Christ was going forth to Gentiles while Paul was still following the Pharisees to hunt down Christians. The above example stands as direct proof, even as Peter was called to preach to Cornelius and his house in Acts 10.
The same Gospel Christ and His Aposltes preached is the same Gospel Paul preached to the Gentiles. Just as Philip declared to the Ethiopian the fulfillment of that Isaiah Scripture, Paul did the same in quoting often from the Old Testament prophets when preaching the same Gospel to the Gentiles.
Another example maybe...
Rom 10:17-20
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought Me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after Me.
(KJV)
That's Apostle Paul quoting from Deut.32:31 that God would provoke Israel to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation (i.e., Gentiles). And then Paul quotes from Isaiah 65:1 about the Gentiles.
The prophecy that Salvation through the Gospel of Jesus Christ would also go to the Gentiles was always first written in the Old Testament Books. That's why Apostle Paul was able to quote from the OT prophets when preaching that same Gospel to the Gentiles.
fivesense said:
The Dispensationalist doctrines you're on has clouded your understanding of what's actually written in the OT prophets.
Rom 15:8-12
8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:
9 And that the Gentiles might glorify God for His mercy; as it is written, "For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name.
10 And again he saith, "Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with His people."
11 And again, "Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud Him, all ye people."
12 And again, Esaias saith, "There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust."
(KJV)
Paul is quoting from Ps.18:49 in the above verse 9, from Deut.32:43 in verse 10, from Ps.117 & 67 in verse 11, and from Isaiah 11:10 in verse 12.
It's not the writings of Paul that are "nonsense". The real nonsense is the doctrine of men you're declaring that what Paul wrote is separate from Old Testament Scripture!
Oh, I'm not refuting you fivesense, God's Word refutes the doctrine of men you're holding on to that there are two different gospels of Jesus Christ, one for Gentiles and another for Israel.
In the Book of Acts there are many Scripture examples of Apostle Paul preaching to Jews along with Gentiles that made up the body of Churches.
In the Book of Acts there are many Scripture examples of Apostle Paul preaching to Jews along with Gentiles that made up the body of Churches.
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