John Owen and arminianism

[Lifelong_sinner]

“Who would have thought that our church would ever have given entertainment to these Belgic semi-Pelagians, who have cast dirt upon the faces and raked up the ashes of all those great and pious souls whom God magnified, in using as his instruments to reform his church; to the least of which the whole troop of Arminians shall never make themselves equal, though they swell till they break?

What benefit did ever come to this church by attempting to prove that the chief part in the several degrees of our salvation is to be ascribed unto ourselves, rather than God? — which is the head and sum of all the controversies between them and us. And must not the introducing and fomenting of a doctrine so opposite to that truth our church hath quietly enjoyed ever since the first Reformation necessarily bring along with it schisms and dissensions, so long as any remain who love the truth, or esteem the gospel above preferment?”

John Owen: Reformed theology and arminianism cannot dwell together.

 

[amadeus]

“Who would have thought that our church would ever have given entertainment to these Belgic semi-Pelagians, who have cast dirt upon the faces and raked up the ashes of all those great and pious souls whom God magnified, in using as his instruments to reform his church; to the least of which the whole troop of Arminians shall never make themselves equal, though they swell till they break?

What benefit did ever come to this church by attempting to prove that the chief part in the several degrees of our salvation is to be ascribed unto ourselves, rather than God? — which is the head and sum of all the controversies between them and us. And must not the introducing and fomenting of a doctrine so opposite to that truth our church hath quietly enjoyed ever since the first Reformation necessarily bring along with it schisms and dissensions, so long as any remain who love the truth, or esteem the gospel above preferment?”

John Owen: Reformed theology and arminianism cannot dwell together.

Why do you post something like this without a translation or at least a definition of all the strange non-scriptural terms?

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

Why do you post something like this without a translation or at least a definition of all the strange non-scriptural terms?

i do not think a translation is required for this. Plus, this forum could use some good old fashioned reformer texts to help it out some.

 

[Heart2Soul]

Why do you post something like this without a translation or at least a definition of all the strange non-scriptural terms?

I agree.. too much verbiage without any comprehensive context.

 

[Davy]

i do not think a translation is required for this. Plus, this forum could use some good old fashioned reformer texts to help it out some.

A waste of time. God's Word in its simplicity is how God showed His to teach it to His people. Men who do it so only a few can understand do that to exalt themselves, and not God in His Word.

Isa 2:22
22 Cease ye from man, whose breath is in his nostrils: for wherein is he to be accounted of?
KJV

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

I agree.. too much verbiage without any comprehensive context.

clearly yall never study the Reformers writings to see what came out of the Reformation. In any case, here is a link to more reformed theologians writings.
John Owen: The Reformed religion and Arminianism cannot dwell together

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

At this point, i feel like this place would be overwhelmed by the WCF short catechism. Keep in mind, most people try to memorize the short catechism as it was meant to be back in the day.

 

[farouk]

clearly yall never study the Reformers writings to see what came out of the Reformation. In any case, here is a link to more reformed theologians writings.
John Owen: The Reformed religion and Arminianism cannot dwell together

@Lifelong_sinner Such theology can indeed be profitable, but I do think care needs to be taken not to become so accustomed to academic theology that terminology drives the proof from Scripture, rather than the other way around.

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

@Lifelong_sinner Such theology can indeed be profitable, but I do think care needs to be taken not to become so accustomed to academic theology that terminology drives the proof from Scripture, rather than the other way around.

so noted. But this part of the forum is listed as theology. So studying and learning sound theological writings should be welcomed in this part of the forum i believe. I never see anyone else post writings on here, and i think people can miss out on things as a result.

 

[farouk]

so noted. But this part of the forum is listed as theology. So studying and learning sound theological writings should be welcomed in this part of the forum i believe. I never see anyone else post writings on here, and i think people can miss out on things as a result.

@Lifelong_sinner I reckon my point was a general one about the whole process of establishing sound summaries and propositions: from Scripture to terminology.

Some of the Reformers - such as Melanchton and Turretin - for all the sound aspects of their work - at times seemed heavily into following and reproducing patterns of Medieval logic - whereas this is not how textual students such as Erasmus - who was into sources and context - worked.

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

@Lifelong_sinner I reckon my point was a general one about the whole process of establishing sound summaries and propositions: from Scripture to terminology.

Some of the Reformers - such as Melanchton and Turretin - for all the sound aspects of their work - at times seemed heavily into following and reproducing patterns of Medieval logic - whereas this is not how textual students such as Erasmus - who was into sources and context - worked.

i get what you’re saying, i do. But also, finally someone else on here who has read and studied older writings, dude, thank you. I love to study reformation writings and i felt kinda alone on here so far. I look forward to at least discussing these things with you. Maybe others will start as well.

 

[farouk]

i get what you’re saying, i do. But also, finally someone else on here who has read and studied older writings, dude, thank you. I love to study reformation writings and i felt kinda alone on here so far. I look forward to at least discussing these things with you. Maybe others will start as well.

@Lifelong_sinner I do think for example the way some of the Reformers looked up to Aquinas was not a healthy source for them; because he represented a systematic attempt to blend grace and nature via logic; and this will not be a sound guide to interpreting the plain sense of Scripture.

 

[Davy]

clearly yall never study the Reformers writings to see what came out of the Reformation. In any case, here is a link to more reformed theologians writings.
John Owen: The Reformed religion and Arminianism cannot dwell together

I don't have to, because my family reminded us about our 15th-16th century ancestors that fled Catholic persecution and that's how my ancestors came to the Americas. They were called Huguenots, the first French Protestants.

Huguenot History – The Huguenot Society of America

 

[Heart2Soul]

clearly yall never study the Reformers writings to see what came out of the Reformation. In any case, here is a link to more reformed theologians writings.
John Owen: The Reformed religion and Arminianism cannot dwell together

Well that would be affirmative. I have never studied it. It doesn't really peak my interest. I would rather just study scripture....

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

Well that would be affirmative. I have never studied it. It doesn't really peak my interest. I would rather just study scripture....

im not saying disregard scripture, but some of the Reformers writings opened my eyes to things i had never considered. Even 500 yrs ago, those people were wayyyyyy smarter than most give them credit for. I find that often times, how most protestants interpret scripture today can be traced back to the Reformers ideas. They work hand in hand with scripture. What i love most about all of this, is that no matter the century or what part of the world, those in Christ share some of the same feelings, emotions, and understanding of what living for God is about.

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

@Lifelong_sinner I do think for example the way some of the Reformers looked up to Aquinas was not a healthy source for them; because he represented a systematic attempt to blend grace and nature via logic; and this will not be a sound guide to interpreting the plain sense of Scripture.

Calvin seemed to like aquinas, but i dont think he rested on aquinas’ words. He simply looked to aquinas’s writings much the same as we look to calvins writings for ideas that we may have never considered. Same for luther, many used him as a source because of who luther used as a source, and im sure those old timers would argue with us today about our beliefs just as we argue with each other on here now.

 

[farouk]

Calvin seemed to like aquinas, but i dont think he rested on aquinas’ words. He simply looked to aquinas’s writings much the same as we look to calvins writings for ideas that we may have never considered. Same for luther, many used him as a source because of who luther used as a source, and im sure those old timers would argue with us today about our beliefs just as we argue with each other on here now.

@Lifelong_sinner It was really about a whole way of doing theology.

If it was about preaching and teaching Scripture truth both to the lost and to believers seeking to grow in the Lord, then I don't see how Aquinas and the like can be much help.

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

@Lifelong_sinner It was really about a whole way of doing theology.

If it was about preaching and teaching Scripture truth both to the lost and to believers seeking to grow in the Lord, then I don't see how Aquinas and the like can be much help.

Really?? Well speaking for the lost, i have found Calvin to be of immense help in understanding through his commentaries what particular verses are about. Even to some degree, martin luther and his ideas about justification through faith are a big help.
Its about figuring out what is truth. The first question i ever had about religion was, if every christian follows the Bible, then why are there so many different denominations and beliefs. I was raised to believe my first church preacher was always correct. It was blasphemy to question what he said. And studying the reformers has helped me with that. Its why im a presbyterian now, the only one in my family.

 

[farouk]

Really?? Well speaking for the lost, i have found Calvin to be of immense help in understanding through his commentaries what particular verses are about. Even to some degree, martin luther and his ideas about justification through faith are a big help.
Its about figuring out what is truth. The first question i ever had about religion was, if every christian follows the Bible, then why are there so many different denominations and beliefs. I was raised to believe my first church preacher was always correct. It was blasphemy to question what he said. And studying the reformers has helped me with that. Its why im a presbyterian now, the only one in my family.

Oh I agree; I was talking about Aquinas, rather than Luther or Calvin. SOLA SCRIPTURA and SEMPER REFORMANDA are good watchwords...

 

[ChristisGod]

You should also read the works of James Arminius.


Jacob Arminius writes,

“IN the state of Primitive Innocence, man had a mind endued with a clear understanding of heavenly light and truth concerning God, and his works and will, as far as was sufficient for the salvation of man and the glory of God; he had a heart imbued with ‘righteousness and true holiness,’ and with a true and saving love of good; and powers abundantly qualified or furnished perfectly to fulfill the law which God had imposed on him. This admits easily of proof, from the description of the image of God, after which man is said to have been created, (Gen 1:26-27) from the law divinely imposed on him, which had a promise and a threat appended to it, (Gen 2:17) and lastly from the analogous restoration of the same image in Christ Jesus. (Eph 4:24, Col 3:10)



But man was not so confirmed in this state of innocence, as to be incapable of being moved, by the representation presented to him of some good, (whether it was of an inferior kind and relating to this animal life, or of a superior-kind and relating to spiritual life) inordinately and unlawfully to look upon it and to desire it, and of his own spontaneous as well as free motion, and through a preposterous desire for that good, to decline from the obedience which had been prescribed to him. Nay, having turned away from the light of his own mind and his chief good, which is God, or, at least, having turned towards that chief good not in the manner in which he ought to have done, and besides having turned in mind and heart towards an inferior good, he transgressed the command given to him for life. By this foul deed, he precipitated himself from that noble and elevated condition into a state of the deepest infelicity, which is under the dominion of sin. For ‘to whom any one yields himself a servant to obey,’ (Rom 6:16) and ‘of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage,’ and is his regularly assigned slave. (2 Pet 2:19)



In this state, the free will of man towards the true good is not only wounded, maimed, infirm, bent, and weakened; but it is also imprisoned, destroyed, and lost. And its powers are not only debilitated and useless unless they be assisted by grace, but it has no powers whatever except such as are excited by Divine grace. For Christ has said, ‘Without me ye can do nothing.’ St. Augustine, after having diligently meditated upon each word in this passage, speaks thus: ‘Christ does not say, without me ye can do but Little; neither does He say, without me ye can do any Arduous Thing, nor without me ye can do it with difficulty. But he says, without me ye can do Nothing! Nor does he say, without me ye cannot complete any thing; but without me ye can do Nothing.’ That this may be made more manifestly to appear, we will separately consider the mind, the affections or will, and the capability, as contra-distinguished from them, as well as the life itself of an unregenerate man.” 6



Arminius further writes,

“THIS is my opinion concerning the free-will of man: In his primitive condition as he came out of the hands of his creator, man was endowed with such a portion of knowledge, holiness and power, as enabled him to understand, esteem, consider, will, and to perform the true good, according to the commandment delivered to him. Yet none of these acts could he do, except through the assistance of Divine Grace. But in his lapsed and sinful state, man is not capable, of and by himself, either to think, to will, or to do that which is really good; but it is necessary for him to be regenerated and renewed in his intellect, affections or will, and in all his powers, by God in Christ through the Holy Spirit, that he may be qualified rightly to understand, esteem, consider, will, and perform whatever is truly good. When he is made a partaker of this regeneration or renovation, I consider that, since he is delivered from sin, he is capable of thinking, willing and doing that which is good, but yet not without the continued aids of Divine Grace.” 7



Jacobus Arminius: Works of James Arminius, Vol. 1 - Christian Classics Ethereal Library