Judaizers! They Live!!!! They walk among us!!!

[brakelite]

Actually, there will have to be a temple in order for the following prophecy to be fulfilled:

2Th 2:3, Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4, Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is the worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

It not only can be fulfilled without a physical building in Jerusalem, it already has. The temple in NT times is us. The church. The whole idea of a temple was as a residence for God on earth that He may dwell with His people. It was never about religion. Today, who are His people and where does God dwell? And if there is a system of belief that usurps God's place in His temple your heart and mind, then has not the above scripture been fulfilled?
Now the task is to identify that man of sin, son of petition, and discover where in the body of Christ he took over. You study prophecy correctly and you will discover the answer.

 

[brakelite]

I think I understand what you are saying...correct me if I am wrong...speaking of the two great commandments of Christ....Love God and love thy neighbor. These two cover the whole of Mosaic Law and in all ways are superior. One of the differences and again only one the differences is that the Jews always found ways around the Laws and came up with teaching that they applied to others, not them. But there is no way around the Laws of Christ. Not written laws, but rather beliefs, concepts and application of love. Love God, love one another, do all things in love. The Mosaic Laws cannot hold a candle to the Teachings of Christ.

Who do you think gave the law to Moses? Tom thumb? They were given to Moses by Christ on the mount because Israel turned to idolatry 5 minutes after being given the ten commandments. What you call the m osaic law was given to a rambunctious unbelieving nation because they needed the discipline and the plain explanations of the sanctuary to reveal the gospel... That God will empower anyone to keep His laws if they have faith. That's why He instructed Moses to build the sanctuary... That He may dwell with His people and teach them through His priests what is right and wrong. After 400 years in slavery to pagan idolators they needed the close attention. Still they rebelled. Today, the NC is a different way but with the intended same results. Obedience to God commandments I will put my laws in your mind and in your hearts, and you will be My people. I will do this, God says. All you have to do is believe.

 

[justbyfaith]

Doesn’t matter what I think. But(IMO) you could not even ask about perfection without the New and Better. Colossians 3:14 And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.

What was the fruit of the Pharisees...was it charity or the bond of perfectness? Did they distract from: worship God? Revelation 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

Revelation 22:9
[9] Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

The second command is like unto the First; in the keeping of the second depends upon the First. Love God and love neighbour as you love yourself. Is this: Worship God. Is this keeping His sayings? Again, if those are neglected is there any authority to even consider the rest?

Acts 10:25-26
[25] And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped him. [26] But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also am a man.

The following verse bears mentioning...

Heb 1:6, And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

Who do you think gave the law to Moses? Tom thumb? They were given to Moses by Christ on the mount because Israel turned to idolatry 5 minutes after being given the ten commandments. What you call the m osaic law was given to a rambunctious unbelieving nation because they needed the discipline and the plain explanations of the sanctuary to reveal the gospel... That God will empower anyone to keep His laws if they have faith. That's why He instructed Moses to build the sanctuary... That He may dwell with His people and teach them through His priests what is right and wrong. After 400 years in slavery to pagan idolators they needed the close attention. Still they rebelled. Today, the NC is a different way but with the intended same results. Obedience to God commandments I will put my laws in your mind and in your hearts, and you will be My people. I will do this, God says. All you have to do is believe.

What do you make of the following verse?

Gal 3:12, And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

 

[brakelite]

What do you make of the following verse?

Gal 3:12, And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

I will answer your question when you can tell me which law Paul is speaking of. Read the chapter you quoted down to verse19... The law, Paul says, was added because of transgressions. Transgressions against what?

 

[justbyfaith]

I will answer your question when you can tell me which law Paul is speaking of. Read the chapter you quoted down to verse19... The law, Paul says, was added because of transgressions. Transgressions against what?

Is there more than one kind of law? I am afraid that you are going to have to give the teaching on this; because I am at a loss as to how to answer your question.

And if you cannot answer my question, I understand...that you do not have an answer, and that therefore there may be a flaw in your theology which is refuted by the verse in question.

So, I ask again:

What do you make of the following verse?

Gal 3:12, And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

Maybe while you're at it you can tell me what kinds of laws there are, and which one you think the verse is speaking of.

Because to me it seems that there is only one law...as evidenced by Paul's use of the word the within the verse in question.

 

[justbyfaith]

Transgressions against what?

Against whom...

God.

 

[brakelite]

Is there more than one kind of law? I am afraid that you are going to have to give the teaching on this; because I am at a loss as to how to answer your question.

And if you cannot answer my question, I understand...that you do not have an answer, and that therefore there may be a flaw in your theology which is refuted by the verse in question.

So, I ask again:

What do you make of the following verse?

Gal 3:12, And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

Maybe while you're at it you can tell me what kinds of laws there are, and which one you think the verse is speaking of.

I am not bring unreasonable not am I evading the question. I am simply asking you to think a little deeper and look at the context of what Paul is saying to the Galatians, particularly verse 19. Throughout the section Paul is saying... Don't be bound by the law... The law is not of faith... Etc etc... Yet over in Romans Paul says the law is holy just and good. So back to Galatians and verse 19 ..7 verses after the one you quoted saying the law is not of faith. Paul says the law... The same law that is not of faith... Was given because of transgressions. Now, the question arises... What transgressions? And transgressions against what?

 

[brakelite]

Against whom...

God.

Okay. What is transgression?

 

[justbyfaith]

I am not bring unreasonable not am I evading the question. I am simply asking you to think a little deeper and look at the context of what Paul is saying to the Galatians, particularly verse 19. Throughout the section Paul is saying... Don't be bound by the law... The law is not of faith... Etc etc... Yet over in Romans Paul says the law is holy just and good. So back to Galatians and verse 19 ..7 verses after the one you quoted saying the law is not of faith. Paul says the law... The same law that is not of faith... Was given because of transgressions. Now, the question arises... What transgressions? And transgressions against what?

See post #187.

 

[justbyfaith]

Okay. What is transgression?

Sin against a visible standard of righteousness.

 

[Grailhunter]

Who do you think gave the law to Moses? Tom thumb? They were given to Moses by Christ on the mount because Israel turned to idolatry 5 minutes after being given the ten commandments. What you call the m osaic law was given to a rambunctious unbelieving nation because they needed the discipline and the plain explanations of the sanctuary to reveal the gospel... That God will empower anyone to keep His laws if they have faith. That's why He instructed Moses to build the sanctuary... That He may dwell with His people and teach them through His priests what is right and wrong. That God will empower anyone to keep His laws if they have faith. Obedience to God commandments I will put my laws in your mind and in your hearts, and you will be My people. I will do this, God says. All you have to do is believe.

They were given to Moses by Christ on the mount because Israel turned to idolatry 5 minutes after being given the ten commandments.
Now that brings up a different perspective! Tell us about all the God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit in Old testament.

That God will empower anyone to keep His laws if they have faith.
Tell me all the Mosaic Laws you obey.

Today, the NC is a different way but with the intended same results.
So you believe the New Covenant is just a different way?
Do you think that there was an achievable path to salvation in the Old testament?

 

[justbyfaith]

Sin against a visible standard of righteousness.

@brakelite, apparently this stopped you in your tracks.

Please let me know what you are thinking on this subject.

 

[brakelite]

Now that brings up a different perspective! Tell us about all the God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit in Old testament.

I have not seen any reference in the old testament to God the Son or God the holy spirit.

Tell me all the Mosaic Laws you obey.

None of them. But I obey all the laws of God because I love God with all my heart and my neighbour as myself.

So you believe the New Covenant is just a different way?
Do you think that there was an achievable path to salvation in the Old testament?

If it wasn't achievable, would God have devised it? Are His commandments not also promises? Thou shalt not commit adultery. Is that not a promise? Do you believe in the promises of God? The whole ten commandments law is based on something God has already accomplished, did you realise that? Another poster alluded to that earlier and you told him his thoughts weren't worthy of your attention. I have brought you out of the house of bondage... For the sinner that is the gospel. For Israel that was their freedom. And for us. Freedom to obey. Now we are free... Now we can have the power to keep your laws. Now that You have delivered us from the bondage of sin, now we can serve righteousness. Now that the old man is dead, now we can live according to the spirit, in love, peace, and holiness. Now we are delivered from the power of darkness, we may live in the power of His light and life.

@brakelite, apparently this stopped you in your tracks.

Please let me know what you are thinking on this subject.

Please, don't be so presumptuous. I have other things to do other than wait on the phone in expectation for every answer.

Sin against a visible standard of righteousness.

And what was that visible standard of righteousness against which Israel transgressed that warranted God giving a law through which He detailed a way by which, if they were obedient and faithful, they would not transgress again?

 

[Nancy]

Christ is the fulfillment of the Law but not the continuance of the Mosaic Law for Christians. You are referencing New Testament scriptures, referencing Old Testament scriptures foretelling of a change and the New Covenant. I believe I provided enough scriptures to clarify what that change meant. This is why Christ did not find Judaism and Christianity compatible. Pulling in beliefs and Laws from the Old Testament just confuses things. If you prefer Jewish beliefs, you can still convert to Judaism. But then you would want to pull Christian beliefs into Judaism. And around and around the circle of confusion goes. In all things Christ's teaching are not only enough but are far superior in morels and character.

I've heard said, to flirt with Moses is cheating on Jesus

 

[brakelite]

I've heard said, to flirt with Moses is cheating on Jesus

Depends on what your expectations are. Moses was a prophet. Don't we listen to prophets any more? Do they not show us the way to salvation? They themselves aren't the way, but they are there to serve as guides and stand as God's representatives to bring us to Him yes? It isn't Moses or Jesus. Either or. It is both, but each having their own role and place. To embrace one isn't rejecting the other.

 

[brakelite]

Those who are willing, against some stern opposition I might add, to uphold God's laws and esteem them honorable, are said to be choosing some laws and rejecting others.
Yet one could level the same accusation against others who reject the law altogether by laying aside clear scripture that counsels is to do the opposite...
KJV Proverbs 4
4 He taught me also, and said unto me, Let thine heart retain my words: keep my commandments, and live.
When did the wisdom of Solomon become selective and deemed to be inapplicable to Christians?
KJV Proverbs 7
2 Keep my commandments, and live; and my law as the apple of thine eye.
KJV 1 Corinthians 7
19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

 

[Stan B]

I've heard said, to flirt with Moses is cheating on Jesus

Nancy, God has promised Israel via the Abrahamic Covenant/Old Mosaic Covenant, that all Israel would receive Atonement under this Covenant, as an eternal Covenant with all of Abraham's seed forever. The Mosaic Covenant will never be abridged nor terminated.

In the Torah, written by Moses, we see the heart and mind of God.

When John penned his Gospel, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God.

As a Jew, he would understand it this way: "In the beginning was the Torah, and the Torah was with God, and the Torah was God. Torah was in the beginning with God."

1.e. Torah was contained in God's within God, and was God, from the very beginning, even before the world was created.

 

[Grailhunter]

I've heard said, to flirt with Moses is cheating on Jesus

lol As Paul said, For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second.

 

[justbyfaith]

Please, don't be so presumptuous.

Not being presumptuous at all. For I wasn't contending with you in such a fashion as to think that I would be getting the better of you if you didn't have an answer. It simply seemed to me that you did not have one, for that it took you so long to respond.

I have other things to do other than wait on the phone in expectation for every answer.

My answer was prompt and wouldn't have required you to wait more than 30 seconds. When I am going to leave the computer, I normally mention it so that people won't be left hanging.

And what was that visible standard of righteousness against which Israel transgressed that warranted God giving a law through which He detailed a way by which, if they were obedient and faithful, they would not transgress again?

I think I need for you to give scripture as a foundation for your statements. From my understanding, God gave the law to Israel through Moses in order to show the nation of Israel that they were rebellious. They were so certain that they could keep His commandments; but in the same breath that they said that they would obey the Lord, they committed idolatry against Him. Fact is, the Israelites would transgress again; because it was not possible (without the Holy Spirit, who was given after that Jesus was glorified) that they should be obedient and faithful.

 

[justbyfaith]

Also, @brakelite, what do you have to say about the following scripture?

Gal 3:12, And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.