Judaizers! They Live!!!! They walk among us!!!

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

justbyfaith

Well-Known Member
Jun 28, 2018
21,740
4,114
113
51
San Pedro
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Israel may indeed build a temple, but it will have nothing to do with prophetic fulfillment,

Actually, there will have to be a temple in order for the following prophecy to be fulfilled:

2Th 2:3, Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4, Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.



Gnashing?

Outer darkness?

Yes, indeed.

Matthew 13:41-42, Matthew 13:49-50, Matthew 8:12, Matthew 22:13, Matthew 25:30, Matthew 24:51, Luke 13:28,
 

FollowHim

Well-Known Member
Aug 22, 2019
2,171
1,047
113
64
London
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
Where do I start, their is so much you said here that is wrong. Judaizer were those that attempt to push the Mosaic Law and customs on Christianity. Paul struggled against them throughout his ministry. Paul was firm regarding no Mosaic Law in Christianity.
This issue was why the council of Jerusalem was called. I understand the concept of attacking Pagans.

How do I respond to this none response, as there is so much you simply did not say. It is amazing how one can respond and the actually say nothing to a clear point, we are called to follow Jesus and walk in love, and be transformed into His image.

But to actually deny this is so blatantly rebellion against the Lord, these words cannot be said. It is like staying in the dark and trying ones best to avoid the light, because opposition will clearly demonstrate ones spiritual position. We have no standing before Christ if we do not repent and walk in His ways with a purified heart.

I have met those who say, no my heart is desperately wicked and God cannot touch it. But to those who declare this, they have no part in Christ then. Because without a pure heart, we cannot see God. Without a pure heart we cannot love God with all our hearts. Without a pure heart we cannot forgive from the heart, because were sin and evil reside so does unforgiveness.

I know it is so hard to break before our heavenly Father and repent, but that is the way of Jesus, the only way, the truth and the life.
So many claim to believe in Christ yet will not pay the price he calls us to give, ourselves.
 
  • Like
Reactions: brakelite

Grailhunter

Well-Known Member
Jun 19, 2019
11,248
5,324
113
66
FARMINGTON
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
How do I respond to this none response, as there is so much you simply did not say. It is amazing how one can respond and the actually say nothing to a clear point, we are called to follow Jesus and walk in love, and be transformed into His image.

But to actually deny this is so blatantly rebellion against the Lord, these words cannot be said. It is like staying in the dark and trying ones best to avoid the light, because opposition will clearly demonstrate ones spiritual position. We have no standing before Christ if we do not repent and walk in His ways with a purified heart.

I have met those who say, no my heart is desperately wicked and God cannot touch it. But to those who declare this, they have no part in Christ then. Because without a pure heart, we cannot see God. Without a pure heart we cannot love God with all our hearts. Without a pure heart we cannot forgive from the heart, because were sin and evil reside so does unforgiveness.

I know it is so hard to break before our heavenly Father and repent, but that is the way of Jesus, the only way, the truth and the life.
So many claim to believe in Christ yet will not pay the price he calls us to give, ourselves.

Exact and straight to the point. Not my fault you cannot handle truth. What you say is nothing to do with the topic. We all love and believe in Jesus. The thread is about Judaizers and their attempt to push the Mosaic Law on Christianity. All you do is talk in circles, I am not going to join you on that merry go round. How many Mosaic Laws do you obey? Are you going to try to push the Mosaic Law on Christians, or condemn those that don't follow the Mosaic Law..Truth...straight answers. Do you stand in the ranks of the Judaizers that attacked Paul and worked against the Gospel.
 

VictoryinJesus

Well-Known Member
Jan 26, 2017
9,673
7,924
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Sorry there Truth, I was busy with a Judaizer. You are right.
Luke 11:37-47

“Now when He had spoken, a Pharisee asked Him to have lunch with him; and He went in, and reclined at the table. When the Pharisee saw it, he was surprised that He had not first ceremonially washed before the meal. But the Lord said to him, “Now you Pharisees clean the outside of the cup and of the platter; but inside of you, you are full of robbery and wickedness. You foolish ones, did not He who made the outside make the inside also? But give that which is within as charity, and then all things are clean for you. “But woe to you Pharisees! For you pay tithe of mint and rue and every kind of garden herb, and yet disregard justice and the love of God; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others. Woe to you Pharisees! For you love the chief seats in the synagogues and the respectful greetings in the market places. Woe to you! For you are like concealed tombs, and the people who walk over them are unaware of it.” One of the lawyers said to Him in reply, “Teacher, when You say this, You insult us too.” But He said, “Woe to you lawyers as well! For you weigh men down with burdens hard to bear, while you yourselves will not even touch the burdens with one of your fingers. Woe to you! For you build the tombs of the prophets, and it was your fathers who killed them.”

Concerning the first two commands in arguing all the other commandments....question being are the first two kept? How much time is spent on insisting and keeping them all, even the ten ...in asserting them of a certainty, when yet the first two go neglected and not kept. Would that not be insane in focusing always all the attention on all the other commandments ...while not even keeping the first two? He said the second commandment is like unto the First, in keeping the second is BECAUSE of keeping the first in Love God. Love your neighbour as you love yourself. The one wanting to justify himself asked Him...well...who is my neighbour? It is not a loop-hole to weasel through. surely God didn’t mean a geographical location only in the neighboring home next to yours...but enveloped All created in His image. He said you will know by the fruit manifested, yet that fruit is ignored even here. Totally ignore the first two commands as the Pharisees ignored them...going for the arguing of the whole ten ...yet failing the first two that fulfill the rest. Wasted effort when the first two have already spoken ...there is no fruit.
 

FollowHim

Well-Known Member
Aug 22, 2019
2,171
1,047
113
64
London
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
Exact and straight to the point. Not my fault you cannot handle truth. What you say is nothing to do with the topic. We all love and believe in Jesus. The thread is about Judaizers and their attempt to push the Mosaic Law on Christianity. All you do is talk in circles, I am not going to join you on that merry go round. How many Mosaic Laws do you obey? Are you going to try to push the Mosaic Law on Christians, or condemn those that don't follow the Mosaic Law..Truth...straight answers. Do you stand in the ranks of the Judaizers that attacked Paul and worked against the Gospel.

What you appear to be talking about is trying to connect anyone who stands for walking in love with being a Judaizer.
I was clear in my distinction. Walking in love, repenting of sin and following Christs commandments. I find among believers few who would be a true judaizer as Paul called them, those who wanted you to become a jew as well as a believer.

Most who use this term as you do, are actually attacking anyone who holds to the fruit of faith is walking in Gods ways. At core their theology is often they are an eternal spirit who can never fall and their flesh is responsible alone for their sin, and no matter how much they sin they are saved. Now of course you may not be following this belief system, but you appear to be saying this.

And truly not all love and believe in Jesus that they can walk as Jesus walked. In truth most appear to oppose that Christ called us to be pure, holy, transformed redeemed people, a light in the darkness, an example to follow, a image of what Christ can do in man. God bless you
 
  • Like
Reactions: brakelite

Grailhunter

Well-Known Member
Jun 19, 2019
11,248
5,324
113
66
FARMINGTON
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Concerning the first two commands in arguing all the other commandments....question being are the first two kept? How much time is spent on insisting and keeping them all, even the ten ...in asserting them of a certainty, when yet the first two go neglected and not kept. Would that not be insane in focusing always all the attention on all the other commandments ...while not even keeping the first two? He said the second commandment is like unto the First, in keeping the second is BECAUSE of keeping the first in Love God. Love your neighbour as you love yourself. The one wanting to justify himself asked Him...well...who is my neighbour? It is not a loop-hole to weasel through. surely God didn’t mean a geographical location only in the neighboring home next to yours...but enveloped All created in His image. He said you will know by the fruit manifested, yet that fruit is ignored even here. Totally ignore the first two commands as the Pharisees ignored them...going for the arguing of the whole ten ...yet failing the first two that fulfill the rest. Wasted effort when the first two have already spoken ...there is no fruit.

I think I understand what you are saying...correct me if I am wrong...speaking of the two great commandments of Christ....Love God and love thy neighbor. These two cover the whole of Mosaic Law and in all ways are superior. One of the differences and again only one the differences is that the Jews always found ways around the Laws and came up with teaching that they applied to others, not them. But there is no way around the Laws of Christ. Not written laws, but rather beliefs, concepts and application of love. Love God, love one another, do all things in love. The Mosaic Laws cannot hold a candle to the Teachings of Christ.
 

VictoryinJesus

Well-Known Member
Jan 26, 2017
9,673
7,924
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I think I understand what you are saying...correct me if I am wrong...speaking of the two great commandments of Christ....Love God and love thy neighbor. These two cover the whole of Mosaic Law and in all ways are superior. One of the differences and again only one the differences is that the Jews always found ways around the Laws and came up with teaching that they applied to others, not them. But there is no way around the Laws of Christ. Not written laws, but rather beliefs, concepts and application of love. Love God, love one another, do all things in love. The Mosaic Laws cannot hold a candle to the Teachings of Christ.

Yes. Agree. Hebrews 10:24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:

How often do we taste fruit and call good what is not good? In fact it is poison and one needs to supernaturally be able to drink poison and not be harmed (nor hurt) by drinking it in, or the result is death.
 

Grailhunter

Well-Known Member
Jun 19, 2019
11,248
5,324
113
66
FARMINGTON
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
What you appear to be talking about is trying to connect anyone who stands for walking in love with being a Judaizer.
I was clear in my distinction. Walking in love, repenting of sin and following Christs commandments. I find among believers few who would be a true judaizer as Paul called them, those who wanted you to become a jew as well as a believer.

Most who use this term as you do, are actually attacking anyone who holds to the fruit of faith is walking in Gods ways. At core their theology is often they are an eternal spirit who can never fall and their flesh is responsible alone for their sin, and no matter how much they sin they are saved. Now of course you may not be following this belief system, but you appear to be saying this.

And truly not all love and believe in Jesus that they can walk as Jesus walked. In truth most appear to oppose that Christ called us to be pure, holy, transformed redeemed people, a light in the darkness, an example to follow, a image of what Christ can do in man. God bless you

You are talking around the subject....beating around the bush. Again, Judaizers are those that preach that the Mosaic Laws are part of the Christian religion. That say we are to obey the Mosaic Laws. Judaizers are not people that choose on their own to follow the 613 Mosaic Laws, that is a right of beliefs. But usually most just give the Mosaic Laws lip service. OH I AM A TRUE CHRISTIAN AND I BELIEVE IN THE LAWS OF MOSES! SEE HOW HOLY I AM! But it is just lip service. Pounding their chest....I am a follower of the holy laws of Moses.
 

Grailhunter

Well-Known Member
Jun 19, 2019
11,248
5,324
113
66
FARMINGTON
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Yes. Agree. Hebrews 10:24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:

How often do we taste fruit and call good what is not good? In fact it is poison and one needs to supernaturally be able to drink poison and not be harmed (nor hurt) by drinking it in, or the result is death.

Like that, you need to talk more about that! Thanks
 

FollowHim

Well-Known Member
Aug 22, 2019
2,171
1,047
113
64
London
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
I think I understand what you are saying...correct me if I am wrong...speaking of the two great commandments of Christ....Love God and love thy neighbor. These two cover the whole of Mosaic Law and in all ways are superior. One of the differences and again only one the differences is that the Jews always found ways around the Laws and came up with teaching that they applied to others, not them. But there is no way around the Laws of Christ. Not written laws, but rather beliefs, concepts and application of love. Love God, love one another, do all things in love. The Mosaic Laws cannot hold a candle to the Teachings of Christ.

Hi Grail, I think you do not understand scripture that well. The two greatest commands are Mosaic, taken from the Law.

Jesus asked the teachers of the law what were the two greatest commandments. He asked them to tell Him what in the Mosaic law they regarded as the two greatest commandments, not an invention of Jesus or new commandment.

32 The expert in the law said to him, “That is true, Teacher; you are right to say that he is one, and there is no one else besides him.
33 And to love him with all your heart, with all your mind, and with all your strength and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices.”
34 When Jesus saw that he had answered thoughtfully, he said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.” Then no one dared any longer to question him. The Messiah: David’s Son and Lord
Mark 12

Jesus is the cornerstone of the law, its example lived out in human form.

5 Love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength.
Deut 6

18 Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against one of your people, but love your neighbour as yourself. I am the LORD.
Lev 19
 

justbyfaith

Well-Known Member
Jun 28, 2018
21,740
4,114
113
51
San Pedro
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Concerning the first two commands in arguing all the other commandments....question being are the first two kept? How much time is spent on insisting and keeping them all, even the ten ...in asserting them of a certainty, when yet the first two go neglected and not kept. Would that not be insane in focusing always all the attention on all the other commandments ...while not even keeping the first two? He said the second commandment is like unto the First, in keeping the second is BECAUSE of keeping the first in Love God. Love your neighbour as you love yourself. The one wanting to justify himself asked Him...well...who is my neighbour? It is not a loop-hole to weasel through. surely God didn’t mean a geographical location only in the neighboring home next to yours...but enveloped All created in His image. He said you will know by the fruit manifested, yet that fruit is ignored even here. Totally ignore the first two commands as the Pharisees ignored them...going for the arguing of the whole ten ...yet failing the first two that fulfill the rest. Wasted effort when the first two have already spoken ...there is no fruit.
Reminds me of:

1Co 13:1, Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
1Co 13:2, And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
1Co 13:3, And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.
 
  • Like
Reactions: VictoryinJesus

Grailhunter

Well-Known Member
Jun 19, 2019
11,248
5,324
113
66
FARMINGTON
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Hi Grail, I think you do not understand scripture that well. The two greatest commands are Mosaic, taken from the Law.

Jesus asked the teachers of the law what were the two greatest commandments. He asked them to tell Him what in the Mosaic law they regarded as the two greatest commandments, not an invention of Jesus or new commandment.

32 The expert in the law said to him, “That is true, Teacher; you are right to say that he is one, and there is no one else besides him.
33 And to love him with all your heart, with all your mind, and with all your strength and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices.”
34 When Jesus saw that he had answered thoughtfully, he said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.” Then no one dared any longer to question him. The Messiah: David’s Son and Lord
Mark 12

Jesus is the cornerstone of the law, its example lived out in human form.

5 Love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength.
Deut 6

18 Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against one of your people, but love your neighbour as yourself. I am the LORD.
Lev 19

Call them what you will....love God and love one another.
 

FollowHim

Well-Known Member
Aug 22, 2019
2,171
1,047
113
64
London
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
You are talking around the subject....beating around the bush. Again, Judaizers are those that preach that the Mosaic Laws are part of the Christian religion. That say we are to obey the Mosaic Laws. Judaizers are not people that choose on their own to follow the 613 Mosaic Laws, that is a right of beliefs. But usually most just give the Mosaic Laws lip service. OH I AM A TRUE CHRISTIAN AND I BELIEVE IN THE LAWS OF MOSES! SEE HOW HOLY I AM! But it is just lip service. Pounding their chest....I am a follower of the holy laws of Moses.

I have never met someone who says "I am a follower of the holy laws of Moses"
There are those who say they follow the moral law of Christ.

It sounds like you have heard the point some are making but have jumped to the wrong conclusions.
There is a strong tradition of following the ten commandments as eternal. Except they miss the point that the sabbath is no longer something we are bound to. If one upheld the sabbath we could not cook or use electricity, or travel long distances etc.
 

VictoryinJesus

Well-Known Member
Jan 26, 2017
9,673
7,924
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Like that, you need to talk more about that! Thanks

You already are. It is the difference. Drink of Christ. “The mosaic Laws cannot hold a candle to the Teachings of Christ.” He summed it up and cast down every vain imagination. The difference between death and Life. Which do we drink from? We are suppose to taste of Him and know it is better...He is Better. How often is the old preferred over the New?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Grailhunter

FollowHim

Well-Known Member
Aug 22, 2019
2,171
1,047
113
64
London
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
Call them what you will....love God and love one another.

Sorry, I am not calling them what I will, they are from the law of Moses, which you definitively said was from Jesus and was superior to the law of Moses, which is clearly not true. Do you know the difference between saying something that is not true, finding it not to be true and then side stepping it? This is lying, which is not something associated with Gods people or His ways.

I remember pointing out a mistake a sister in Christ had made, and she got very upset and apologised for their oversight. These oversights really matter because our whole salvation relies on these points and their foundation. It is no minor point. The foundation of the law and the prophets is the foundation of the gospel and Jesus's message, our whole salvation and the Kingdom of Heaven. So you cannot get more foundational than this, over which the elect have no compromise. God bless you
 
  • Like
Reactions: brakelite

Grailhunter

Well-Known Member
Jun 19, 2019
11,248
5,324
113
66
FARMINGTON
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I have never met someone who says "I am a follower of the holy laws of Moses"
There are those who say they follow the moral law of Christ.

It sounds like you have heard the point some are making but have jumped to the wrong conclusions.
There is a strong tradition of following the ten commandments as eternal. Except they miss the point that the sabbath is no longer something we are bound to. If one upheld the sabbath we could not cook or use electricity, or travel long distances etc.

Finally! Thank you. The phrase the ten commandments does not occur in the New Testament. There are some misconception that I am writing up. You would probably not like tradition as religious beliefs, because for a long time it was a tradition to follow the teachings of the Catholic Church...Then the church was fractured into tens of thousands of Protestant denominations. Hey the more the merrier!
 

FollowHim

Well-Known Member
Aug 22, 2019
2,171
1,047
113
64
London
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
Call them what you will....love God and love one another.

Do you know what you are actually supporting and condemning?
Some pharisees came to faith and followed Christ, some blasphemed against the Holy Spirit and were lost.

Not being able to tell the two apart is a major problem.
God bless you.

I wonder if a person throws themselves in hell after picking up a sword and chopping off their own feet and hands, is there any less judgement than for those who truly rebel and hate God.
 

FollowHim

Well-Known Member
Aug 22, 2019
2,171
1,047
113
64
London
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
Finally! Thank you. The phrase the ten commandments does not occur in the New Testament. There are some misconception that I am writing up. You would probably not like tradition as religious beliefs, because for a long time it was a tradition to follow the teachings of the Catholic Church...Then the church was fractured into tens of thousands of Protestant denominations. Hey the more the merrier!

It is slightly unclear what you are getting at.
We are called to listen and follow Jesus. Do you listen to Jesus and follow Him?
 

Grailhunter

Well-Known Member
Jun 19, 2019
11,248
5,324
113
66
FARMINGTON
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I have been saving this topic for the Judaizers but none have brought it up, directly. Not that no one knows this, I am just adding this to the discussion. Christ and the twelve chosen Apostles were Jews. The scriptures do not suggest that they ever stopped thinking or calling themselves Jews. Except for Peter, the word Christian does not appear in any of their writings. Mark and Luke are not of the twelve, but the word Christian does not appear in the Gospel of Mark or Luke, but the word Christian does appear twice in Acts. Which would make some sense, since the term was coined later in Antioch.

It is a matter of scripture that Christ kept the Mosaic Laws perfectly. It is a matter of tradition that all or some of the Apostles kept the 613 Mosaic Laws and Holy Days and worshiped on the Sabbath and the Lord’s day. This is nearly irrelevant for Christians of today for a couple reasons. One, most of us cannot trace our linage back to the Jewish-Christians…we are mostly Gentiles. The council in Jerusalem outlined the extent of the Law that the Gentiles were to obey. Some might think that a modern Christian can observe the 613 laws of Moses…more or less seeing themselves as Jewish-Christians. Now Paul addressed this and it is not the thing to do and it would be extremely difficult for modern Christians to observe, obey, participate in all of the Laws and prescribed Holy Days. Once you physically start obeying the Mosaic Law. any of them, you are completely in and must obey all 613 Laws. To pick a few to follow is sacrilegious to the Mosaic Laws. Besides that most Christians would be tripping all over themselves generating sins in all directions.

Then there is the Apostle Paul, what was that about? Christ told His apostles that, I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. Christ’s instructions to Paul many have been about the detail of these things, hard to say or prove. But Paul’s explanation of Christian theology is much more detailed. Paul went on to either write or influence most of the New Testament. Out of the 27 manuscripts, depending how you count them, he wrote or was influential in the writing of 16. In his writings we see the attack of the Judaizers on Paul’s ministry. We see the struggles he had with the Judaizers and the ruling at the council of Jerusalem. We see his frustration with those that thought salvation had anything to do with the “works” of the Law. How many ways, in all of his books did he say we are not under the Law? And some say he even put a curse on those that looked to the law for righteousness….
 
Last edited: