Yes. Not in the same way they were given to Moses. Israel had just spent 400 years in Egyptian slavery... They knew nothing of the God Moses was introducing them to. But Abraham's children and grandchildren knew that God had laws and they were not to be truffled with. Joseph for example knew it was an offence against God to commit adultery. How did He know that except it was taught him?
Judaizers! They Live!!!! They walk among us!!!
- Thread starter Grailhunter
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What is a fallacy is the idea that being "under the law" applies to anyone who is obedient to the law. In fact, of one is to read carefully the context in which that phrase appears...
KJV Galatians 4
5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
Those under the law are ones in need of redemption... That is sinners under condemnation of the law. Those who are not under the law therefore are those who are obedient to the law. The Devil twists stuff around to make sinners look like angels, and the obedient to look like himself. No surprise there huh.
KJV Galatians 4
5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
Those under the law are ones in need of redemption... That is sinners under condemnation of the law. Those who are not under the law therefore are those who are obedient to the law. The Devil twists stuff around to make sinners look like angels, and the obedient to look like himself. No surprise there huh.
Waiting on him
Well-Known Member
Brother, even when I was a filthy pagan I knew it was wrong to sleep with another mans wife.
Do you believe God wrote his laws on my heart before I was conscious of Him?
Well at least you are wrong with conviction! I would take them on one at time but you are wrong on every count. There are people here that know something about the Bible and the Mosaic Law. You can stop while you are ahead, or provide us with some entertainment, every group needs a fool to laugh at. Again you need to do a little reading before you make this worse for yourself.
That's great. A sign that your forbears at some time had the same sense of morality and passed it down. Same with those who lived pre Sinai. But don't think for a moment that parents didn't teach their children the same... Same as godly parents today.
God had to write it down though because that sense of morality was well and truly lost during Israel's enforced stay in Egypt and learning Egyptian ways... Given time and circumstance all humanity would lose that soft conscience... As well as a reminder that those 'words' were to be shared with the heathen round about them.
Truth
Well-Known Member
I can agree to the fact that there were Jewish Christians, But the Judaizers were not just Jews, they were Pharisees trying to enforce what is commonly known as the Oral Torah- which had nothing to do with the Mosaic Law! Take the time to research the Talmud, which was the Oral Torah, and is no longer Oral, But written down in 22 Volumes, and within these Volumes are thousands of man made commandments, and traditions, by which Modern Orthodox Judaism are held too!
I myself keep the Torah, at least the Commandments for men including the Sabbath, and the Feasts, it has nothing to do with Salvation, so would that put me under Your Label?
PS - Judaism is a proud Fake Religion, and they Proudly state that they are a continuance from the second Temple Time to this very day!
I do not follow Judaism, so if I must be Labeled, I would prefer to be Labeled as a Israel-izer, for it is that Root that I am Grafted into, and will share in that Commonwealth!
I will try to stay abreast of this Thread and add as I can to express what is my take on these subjects!
Be Blessed in the Name of Yashua.
JESUS SAID:
But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. (Mt 5:22)
So Christ has the last laugh.
I have done my study and understand what you say, as existed, and I commend you for your study. It was there, but the Talmud did not make the Mosaic Law easier, as you know. The term Judaizers, no matter what, is a general term. We do not know precisely who all made up the group that harassed Paul. I have a 40,000 dollar library and shelves on the Jews and no matter what you know you, what you present here, has to be done in generalities. The history of the Jews with the Romans before Christ, the history of the Jews after Christ. The history of the Jews in relation to Christ's ministry and with Paul's ministry. Christians love the Gospels and well they should, but Christ's ministry was directed at the Jews, He said so Himself. The Jews understand that the Messiah was for them and against their oppressors....the Pagans....so they thought. Most of what they were taught to happen, did not happen. Then they cursed themselves. What you know is good, but it was not going on, as presented in the scriptures....again the scriptures are not going to tell all that is going on. Of course the word Talmud does not occur in the Bible. But still we know the significance of the Oral Tradition in Judaism. But then, what Paul is talking about and struggling against is the written law, those laws engraved on stones, "the whole law" per'sue. The Jewish-Christians saw the messiah as their messiah and a continuance of Judaism, a fulfillment of Judaism. By no stretch of the imagination did they see the Way as a senior component to Judaism. When we talk of history we still have to relate to those that know the terms as they know them now. Bottom line they (Jews) wanted the Christians to follow the Mosaic Law...."knowing this is a misnomer also" traditions, concepts, customs. And yes the Pharisees, what fun would the law be without "lawyers". lol Now on the topic of you being a Judaizer, you do not fit the term. And there are still unanswered questions. Some...most of the Apostles were Jewish Christians and followed the Mosaic Law, as they followed them in that era...that is the most accurate way to say that. After Christ they were operating on two holy days per week. Was Paul preaching against the Apostle's continuance in observing the law? Another difficulty in understanding what exactly is going on there. Everything is in the process of transition. Jews half way in and half way out. Jewish-Christians with multiple wives, Jewish-Christians believing in Christ, put still coming to terms with His teachings, still there are questions as to how Christ could preach to the Jews and them call Him master, teacher, rabbi, and He not be married. The Jews then and even mostly today are psychotic in their homophobic beliefs, embedded in their religion and culture. A man that was not married by the time he was twenty would bring disgrace on himself and his family. So these are questions that we do not know. Those today that follow the "Mosaic Law" to the extent they can and still are Christians, are in a category of their own, not Judaizers. But then if they suggest that Christians should do that or that they are in someway better, they are Judaizers. Then again, those that have been circumcised and follow the Law and all its prescribed holy days and are Christians are attempting to juggle two covenants which would have its liabilities. For most Christians that would be like a field full of land mines, the possibility exists that they could be transgressing against two covenants. Like I said it is unique, Judaism and Christianity has never produced processes for this type of religious beliefs, except to say don't do it. As far as I am concerned, freedom of religion prevails. Then on the other hand do not lose sight of the fact that I am very much for the Jews and Israel. And thanks for commenting. I edited this.
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If you even start your car on a Saturday you are lighting a fire and that is a violation of sabbath law...so I guess that means you have to walk to church from now on.
Too far away? The law is unbending.
Can you quote that law please ...and you would be the first to claim that we should be obeying the spirit of the law and here you are demanding others obey the letter!
Truth
Well-Known Member
Well! I do not have an extent Library, let alone 40,000 dollars? go figure! LOL - no offence please, OK. Your presentation was well proposed, and it is Truly a work of Thought, not just vain babbling, I am just a commoner in a land of wickedness! and over the years I have truly just Prayed for the Truth. So as most say we will follow our Hearts, and in the End the Master will Show us His Way, and Hopefully we will be set Free from manmade religion!!
Thank You for Your Response, for I did enjoy it!! Agree or not to Agree Shalom, Peace in the Name!!!
The matter at hand is what do you believe...
If you believe that you need to not do any work every Saturday then you are bound up in the letter.
The spirit of sabbath day law is found in the following passages:
Mat 11:28, Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Mat 11:29, Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
Mat 11:30, For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.
and,
Heb 4:7, Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
Heb 4:8, For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
Heb 4:9, There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
Heb 4:10, For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
Also, not being bound to the letter is something that applies to Christians...those who are putting their trust wholly in the finished work of the Cross to save them.
If that is where you stand, then I apologize...
But I think that there is a tendency in those who are focused on the law, for them to some degree put their trust in their performance in the law...their works...their obedience...to save them.
There is a tendency to believe that somehow what you are doing is salvational.
So, I would ask you: In your opinion, if you were to begin to violate your understanding of the sabbath law on a regular basis...would you still be saved?
.
.
.
If the answer is no, then you are to a certain extent trusting in your sabbath-keeping to save you...and in doing this you are not wholly trusting in what Christ did for you on the Cross.
And this can be deadly and even fatal in the spiritual sense.
Mat 23:1, Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
Mat 23:2, Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
Mat 23:3, All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
I believe that it is in the Oral tradition of the law that if you start a fire it is counted as work...therefore if you start a fire on the sabbath day it would be a violation of the sabbath.
Stan B
Well-Known Member
I stopped reading your thesis beyond this point.
The Old Covenant has NEVER been abridged, suspended or terminated. God declared that is was an eternal Covenant between Abraham and his seed. It is still the Covenant within which most of Israel still relates to God.
God said it was forever!
Looks like you missed reading the epistle to the Hebrews. But that is no excuse for making the above claim.
I know that I have it read it well. It teaches that in the new covenant, the law of the Lord is written on the hearts and in the minds of those who believe (Hebrews 8:8-10, Hebrews 10:16).
Stan B
Well-Known Member
Of course I have read Hebrews, which has NEVER said that the Old Covenant has been terminated, since it is an eternal Covenant, although it might be regarded as obsolete in light of the New, it has never been terminated, nor will it ever be!
The Mosaic Law is eternal to the point of all things being accomplished. It is the Law of the Covenant between God and Israel. Most of the Jews are still in that Covenant and under that Law…but that Law is not in the New Covenant, not part of Christianity. Christians are not under the Law and there is a school of thought that those that observe the Law and abide in it, no longer abide in the New Covenant. That also means the spirit of the Law, the spirit of the Law is worst of all. The spirit of the Law is against the character of Christianity, against the character of Christ. Do we sell our daughters into slavery? Do we have multiple wives and concubines? Do we kill all that breaths and save the virgins for ourselves. That is part of the Mosaic Law and the Mosaic Law cannot be changed or subdivided. That ministry of death, that ministry of condemnation, that ministry of cruelty, that ministry that did not lead to salvation or a relationship with God.
Just a review of all of scriptures that stand against those that would preach against the truth and stand with the Judaizers that worked against God, the Gospel and Paul. No Old Testament Laws in Christianity!
2ND Corinthians 3:7-18 But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was, how will the ministry of the Spirit fail to be even more with glory? For if the ministry of condemnation has glory, much more does the ministry of righteousness abound in glory. For indeed what had glory, in this case has no glory because of the glory that surpasses it. For if that which fades away was with glory, much more that which remains is in glory. Therefore having such a hope, we use great boldness in our speech, and are not like Moses, who used to put a veil over his face so that the sons of Israel would not look intently at the end of what was fading away. But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ. But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart; but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.
Galatians 3:1-5 You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified? This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? Did you suffer so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?
Galatians 3:24-26 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
Romans 4:15 for the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, neither is there violation.
Romans 5:13 For until the Law sin was in the world; sin is not imputed when there is no Law.
This one is important but long, basically Romans chapter 6. “What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace might increase? May it never be! How shall we who died in sin still live in it? Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, in order that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in the newness of life. For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall be also in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, that our body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin; for he who has died is freed from sin…….10 & 11 For the death that He died, He did to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Jesus Christ. 14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under the law, but under grace 18 Being then free from sin, you become the servants of righteousness.
Romans 7:6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.
Romans 7:8 But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead.
Romans 8:1-2 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath you free from the law of sin and death.
Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
Words mean things! lol
Hebrews 10:4 For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.
1st Cor. 9:20 And to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law, through not being myself under the Law, that I might win those who are under the Law;
2nd Cor. 3:3 being manifested that you are a letter of Christ, cared for by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone, but on tablets of human hearts.
Galatians..Oh my gosh!
Galatians 4:21 “Tell me, you who want to be under the law, do you not listen to the law?”
Galatians 5:3&4 And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law. You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
Galatians 3:12 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us.
Hebrews 10:1 For the Law, since it has only a shadow of the good things to come and not the very form of things, can never by the same sacrifices year by year, which they offer continually, make perfect those who draw near.
Act 13:38-39 Paul said, Therefore let it be known to you brethren, that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you, and through Him everyone who believes is freed from all things, from which you could not be freed through the Law of Moses.
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