Judaizers! They Live!!!! They walk among us!!!

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Grailhunter

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The number of wives and concubines as well as offspring and property was not only a symbol of social distinction, but more importantly the favor of God. Monogamy, on the other hand, was the badge of poverty. The patriarchs were chiefly polygamists: Gideon had many wives, David increased the number of his with his advancement in political power, Solomon had 700 wives, princesses, and 300 concubines. Rehoboam, Abijah, Zedekiah had both wives and concubines, and the "palace-women" of Hezekiah are cited in the list of booty taken by Sennacherib from Jerusalem. Not only does the law permit polygamy (Deut. 21:10-15), the Song of Songs celebrates it (6:8), the prophetic literature makes use of it as a symbol in ascribing two wives to Yahweh, Israel and Judah (Ezek. chap. 23), and the Wisdom literature reveals its existence ( Prov. 30:23).

The background of Gen. 2: 18, 24 is father-right versus mother-right, rather than monogamy versus polygamy. The man alone had the right of divorce. This is partly due to the commercial form of marriage, whereby the woman belongs absolutely to the man. Her economic value is his; her love and fidelity are his due. On the other hand, the man is legally held only to "her food, her raiment, and her duty of marriage" (Exod. 21:10). Infidelity, adultery, is an attack upon property-rights, punishable, like robbery, by death (Gen 44:9; Deut. 22:22-27; Lev. 20:10). Since the woman is the possessed and not the possessor, her personal grievances never enter into the situation excepting when the influence of her family is exerted in her behalf (II Sam., chap. 13). It becomes a less serious wrong to violate an unbetrothed than a betrothed maiden (Deut. 22:28; Exod. 22: 16).
 
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Grailhunter

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While a man is not answerable to his wife, the wife herself is held to the strictest account (Gen. 3:16, 38:24; Ezek. 16:38-40; 23:45-47; Num. 5:12.). In this conception of the wife as property begins that double standard of morality which is the bane of the modern family. Divorce was not, however, limited to one cause in Israel. The grounds for divorce are rather vaguely defined as "some unseemly thing" in the wife (Deut. 24:3-4), being a term about as general as the modern "incompatibility of temper," only the advantage in Israel lay wholly with the man. The practice of divorcing the aging wife and taking a younger wife was seen as the right thing to do. When a wife was divorced she took nothing with her and of course not the children. It was nearly a death sentence because Mosaic Law forbid men from marrying divorced women and if she took a Pagan husband that was a death sentence too. As it was divorce was so frequent that it became one of the evils attacked by the prophets (Mal. 2:16) and by Jesus the Christ, who does away with the old law through the enunciation of a new one (Matt. 5:31-32).
 
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Grailhunter

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1st Samuel 18:27 David took his men with him and went out and killed two hundred Philistines and brought back their foreskins. They counted out the full number to the king so that David might become the king's son-in-law. Then Saul gave him his daughter Michal in marriage.

It looks like King David had 7 wives, but still he had a wandering eye.

2nd Samuel 11:1-5 King David commits adultery with Bathsheba and she conceives.

2nd Samuel 11:14-17 King David had Bathsheba's husband positioned in battle so that he would be killed.

2nd Samuel 12:24 From all his wives he conceived Solomon through Bathsheba.

1st Kings 4:29-30 God gave King Solomon wisdom and he was billed as the wisest of men. He had 1,000 wives and concubines and worshiped a Pagan god. 1st Kings 11:5-8

There is definitely a moral to this story. But since there are those that want to bring the Old Testament and the Mosaic Law into Christianity, particularly the spirit, that is so important...should we include the example of these men in our Christian walk? God given wisdom...how many wives do you think we should have? Concubines or wives? What do you think?

These men wrote proverbs and psalms, Christians quote them, but it is kind of like the fruit of the poisonous tree? We can only hope that God guided their writings better than He guided their lives.
 

Grailhunter

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Exodus 21:23-25 But if there is any further injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.

How does this compare to

Matthew 5:38-39 “You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.’ But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also.

Christ does not even give this the dignity of calling it a Law. You have heard it was said…. But for those that want to preach that the Mosaic Law is so good and so morale, should we consider forgetting what Christ said. Should we try to mingle them a little…put them in the same wineskins? Is what Christ said a fulfillment of the Law or a correction? Or a reversal? What is the fulfillment? Is it that Christ was the fulfillment of the Old Testament as a whole? I vote for that. But still there will be those that want to bring the Mosaic Law into Christianity because it is such a good spirit of morality. “We observe them in spirit!!!” That is talking out the side of your mouth in the real!
 
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justbyfaith

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I believe that the Mosaic Law is not required to be followed by Christians. What God thinks of them, you will have to ask Him.
My point is that there is no up side to bringing them into Christianity, by letter or by spirit.

Yet, Jesus said that not one jot or one tittle shall pass away from the law until after heaven and earth pass away. And in Romans 7:6, the spirit of the law is set forth as something to be obeyed.

Not only does the law permit polygamy (Deut. 21:10 ff., I5-I7),

As it was with divorce, so it was with polygamy. Moses permitted it because of the hardness of men's hearts.

Exodus 21:23-25 But if there is any further injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.

How does this compare to

Matthew 5:38-39 “You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.’ 39 But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also.

Christ does not even give this the dignity of calling it a Law. You have heard it was said…. But for those that want to preach that the Mosaic Law is so good and so morale, should we consider forgetting what Christ said. Should we try to mingle them a little…put them in the same wineskins? Is what Christ said a fulfillment of the Law or a correction? Or a reversal? What is the fulfillment? Is it that Christ was the fulfillment of the Old Testament as a whole? I vote for that. But still there will be those that want to bring the Mosaic Law into Christianity because it is such a good spirit of morality. “We observe them in spirit!!!” That is talking out the side of your mouth in the real!

The law on eye for eye, tooth for tooth is in fact civil law, while Jesus' exhortation was to not use civil law as an excuse for taking revenge yourself. The civil law, here, is God's just judgment and is to serve as a deterrent for those who are violent.

Jesus in the scripture in question exhorts us not to be as Lamech in the book of Genesis, saying that we ought to be avenged seventy-seven times because we took what was taken from us (in self-defense); such as an eye for an eye or a tooth for a tooth. The Lord exhorts us to let vengeance belong to the Lord and not to take revenge yourself; for that would be stooping to the level of the one who harmed you. But when the civil government executes justice, it is of the Lord and such laws are to be upheld because of their deterring factor.
 

Grailhunter

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Deuteronomy 24:1-4 KJV When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house. And when she is departed out of his house, she may go and be another man's wife. And if the latter husband hate her, and write her a bill of divorcement, and giveth it in her hand, and sendeth her out of his house; or if the latter husband die, which took her to be his wife; Her former husband, which sent her away, may not take her again to be his wife, after that she is defiled; for that is abomination before the Lord: and thou shalt not cause the land to sin, which the Lord thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.

Compared to

Mark 10:1-12 KJV And he arose from thence, and cometh into the coasts of Judaea by the farther side of Jordan: and the people resort unto him again; and, as he was wont, he taught them again. And the Pharisees came to him, and asked him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife? tempting him.

And he answered and said unto them, What did Moses command you?

And they said, Moses suffered to write a bill of divorcement, and to put her away.

And Jesus answered and said unto them, For the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept. But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife; And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.”

And in the house his disciples asked him again of the same matter. And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her. And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery.

(Also Matthew 19:8 He said to them, “Because of your hardness of heart Moses permitted you to divorce your wives; but from the beginning it has not been this way.)


Are these two moralities even close? Is Christ saying that Moses wrote this Law on his own accord? If so, how many more Laws did he write on his own accord? Is this why the Mosaic Law is flawed? Is this why it does not reflect God’s perfect character? Does Christ’s teachings reflect more correctly God’s good character? God does not change! Really? I think this is a change. If God did not like divorce in the beginning and did not like it in the end and Moses wrote the Laws....that might explain it, but it would also add and element of confusion. All scriptures are inspired by God! Really? Which one of these scriptures are inspired? Both of them? Sometimes I think people like confusion.

Romans 8:7 KJV For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

Romans 8:7-9 NASB For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second. For finding fault with them, He says,
“Behold, days are coming, says the Lord,
When I will effect a new covenant
With the house of Israel and with the house of Judah;
Not like the covenant which I made with their fathers
On the day when I took them by the hand
To lead them out of the land of Egypt;
For they did not continue in My covenant,
And I did not care for them, says the Lord.

But still what are we to do? They both cannot be correct. But still there are the Judaizers....We follow the Mosaic Law! It is of God and God does not change! The Mosaic Law is forever! …. Was it of God? Can we bring the Old Testament divorce Laws into the New Covenant? I think the divorce lawyers would agree with that? Morally speaking, one has to be right, and one has to be wrong. One has to be morale and one has to be immoral. I believe in Christ's morales, over and above, and past anything in the Old Testament.

Besides love God and love one another that Christ reiterated, how many Mosaic Laws do we want to bring into Christianity? Now is the time you Judaizers, speak up! What Mosaic Laws do you want to bring into Christianity? What spirit of the Mosaic Law surpasses the Spirit of Christ? He told you that you cannot mix them. He told you that Christianity was not a patch on Judaism. What is better than Christ? What Law or proverb is wiser than Christ? What Law or proverb could come close to the morality of Christ? What morality or spirit in the Mosaic Law needs to be added to Christ’s teachings to make them better? The Mosaic Law cannot improve Christianity in any way. It can only confuse it!


 
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justbyfaith

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Is Christ saying that Moses wrote this Law on his own accord?

Absolutely not.

God does not change! Really? I think this is a change.

Yes, really (Malachi 3:6, Hebrews 13:8).

In the New Testament the requirement is greater because we now have the Holy Spirit. In the Old Testament the Lord made the requirement less because the people could not keep what God really desired of them without the Holy Spirit...now see John 7:39. The Lord was showing them grace because the Holy Spirit was not yet given.

All scriptures are inspired by God! Really?

Yes, really (2 Timothy 3:16-17)

Gen 3:1, Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

The devil's first tactic in the garden was to question whether God's word was really valid.

The Mosaic Law is forever! …. Was it of God? Can we bring the Old Testament divorce Laws into the New Covenant?

See above. For those who do not have the Holy Ghost, it is the Lord's grace and mercy that He does not require as much of them.

Therefore, we can indeed implement the Mosaic laws on divorce into civil law in a Christian nation...because not everyone in such a nation is redeemed.

Now is the time you Judaizers, speak up! What Mosaic Laws do you want to bring into Christianity?

This is what was spoken by Jesus (the Judaizer?)

Mat 5:17, Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18, For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Mat 5:19, Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 5:20, For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.



What spirit of the Mosaic Law surpasses the Spirit of Christ?

The spirit of the law is very closely associated with the Spirit of Christ:

Rom 7:6, But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

2Co 3:6, Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.


The Mosaic Law cannot improve Christianity in any way. It can only confuse it!

The Mosaic law is part of the New Testament law (Matthew 5:17-20).
 
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Grailhunter

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Absolutely not.



Yes, really (Malachi 3:6, Hebrews 13:8).

In the New Testament the requirement is greater because we now have the Holy Spirit. In the Old Testament the Lord made the requirement less because the people could not keep what God really desired of them without the Holy Spirit...now see John 7:39. The Lord was showing them grace because the Holy Spirit was not yet given.



Yes, really (2 Timothy 3:16-17)

Gen 3:1, Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

The devil's first tactic in the garden was to question whether God's word was really valid.



See above. For those who do not have the Holy Ghost, it is the Lord's grace and mercy that He does not require as much of them.



This is what was spoken by Jesus (the Judaizer?)

Mat 5:17, Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18, For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Mat 5:19, Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 5:20, For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.





The spirit of the law is very closely associated with the Spirit of Christ:

Rom 7:6, But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

2Co 3:6, Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.




The Mosaic law is part of the New Testament law (Matthew 5:17-20).


The spirit of the Mosaic Law? Lets sell our daughters into slavery....That the spirit!
No, our wives would not like that and now a days it is called human trafficking...even the godless know better.
But in the biblical era, slavery was very common. So would Christ get into the conversion about the proper way to sell your daughter into slavery? One is moral and one is not.

Which scripture was inspired. Dodging the question is not an answer.
The question persists...which scripture was inspired?

But still you know what I am going to say...What Mosaic Laws do we need to bring into Christianity? Which ones are you going to observe? Or are you going to give everything you have said just lip service....and back to the whole, we observe them in spirit! You should know that double talk will not work with me. Is it moral to have more than one wife? Or is it immoral? As a military person, should I have kept the virgins and killed the babies? Moral or immoral.....Talk in circles if you want....I will keep bringing you back to this.
 
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justbyfaith

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The spirit of the Mosaic Law? Lets sell our daughters into slavery....That the spirit!

Do you think that God commanded people to sell their daughters into slavery? or, did He, knowing the wickedness of man, give them laws regulating what He knew He could not stop them from doing apart from dying immediately to give them the Holy Spirit?

The question persists...which scripture was inspired?

All scripture is inspired by God, 2 Timothy 3:16-17.

Gen 3:1, Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

The devil's first tactic in the garden was to question whether God's word was really valid.

But still you know what I am going to say...What Mosaic Laws do we need to bring into Christianity? Which ones are you going to observe?

Even the least of them, if I want to be called great in the kingdom (Matthew 5:19).

Or are you going to give everything you have said just lip service....and back to the whole, we observe them in spirit! You should know that double talk will not work with me.

Yes, we observe them in spirit. And this is not double talk, it is biblical truth, Romans 7:6, 2 Corinthians 3:6.

Is it moral <fify> to have more than one wife? Or is it immoral?

Immoral. God gave them the laws to regulate polygamy because of the hardness of their hearts; because He knew that He could not stop them from violating any greater law apart from dying on the Cross right then in order to provide the Holy Ghost to them so that they might be able to obey a stricter commandment.
 

Grailhunter

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Do you think that God commanded people to sell their daughters into slavery? or, did He, knowing the wickedness of man, give them laws regulating what He knew He could not stop them from doing apart from dying immediately to give them the Holy Spirit?



All scripture is inspired by God, 2 Timothy 3:16-17.

Gen 3:1, Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

The devil's first tactic in the garden was to question whether God's word was really valid.



Even the least of them, if I want to be called great in the kingdom (Matthew 5:19).



Yes, we observe them in spirit. And this is not double talk, it is biblical truth, Romans 7:6, 2 Corinthians 3:6.



Immoral. God gave them the laws to regulate polygamy because of the hardness of their hearts; because He knew that He could not stop them from violating any greater law apart from dying on the Cross right then in order to provide the Holy Ghost to them so that they might be able to obey a stricter commandment.

Do you think that God commanded people to sell their daughters into slavery? or, did He, knowing the wickedness of man, give them laws regulating what He knew He could not stop them from doing apart from dying immediately to give them the Holy Spirit?

Now you are digging yourself a hole! So the Mosaic Law was evil so it would accommodate for the evilness of Man. You might want to rethink that one, because I will have a hey day with it.

All scripture is inspired by God,
Opposite moral scriptures, both inspired by God. Sound like double talk to me.

Even the least of them, if I want to be called great in the kingdom (Matthew 5:19).
Talking in circles and not saying a thing. Start naming the Laws you are going to observe. I can help. You know there is a Mosaic Law against a clean shaven face. You will need to leave the raisins alone. And keep the cows in the field the same color. Write the commandments on the door post of your house. And quarantine your wife when she is on her period...I dare you!
 
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justbyfaith

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@Grailhunter:

I don't have the answers to all of your objections. But it seems to me that you are attempting to cast doubt on the veracity of the word of God.

There is a judgment coming. When you stand before Him, you can raise your objections to Him then and I'm certain He will have all of the answers.

But beware in the meantime, lest you be found His enemy over the fact that you are attempting to cast doubt on His word that brings salvation and therefore are fighting against the salvation of souls. I can assure you that God will not take kindly to that; especially if because of your behaviour someone in particular does not enter in to the kingdom who would have otherwise entered in.
 
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Prayer Warrior

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All scripture is inspired by God,
Opposite moral scriptures, both inspired by God. Sound like double talk to me.

Even the least of them, if I want to be called great in the kingdom (Matthew 5:19).
Talking in circles and not saying a thing. Start naming the Laws you are going to observe. I can help. You know there is a Mosaic Law against a clean shaven face. You will need to leave the raisins alone. And keep the cows in the field the same color. Write the commandments on the door post of your house. And quarantine your wife when she is on her period...I dare you!

Up to more mischief, I see! Accusing God of double talk? So, when you don't understand something in the Bible, it must be the Bible that is wrong?

Even though I am in agreement with Paul--that Christians have died to the Mosaic law, which held us bound (Ro 7), I would not dare to call God's law into question as you have in this thread. God's law is good, and it's still very much in force to those who are under the law.

It really it the serpent's tongue that casts doubt onto God's word in this way. HAS GOD SAID...???

This is the problem with you mystics! You think that you have ascended above and beyond God's written word, and yet you will try to use His word to prove your poisonous point. Poison in the well!

Proverbs 30:5-6--Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.
Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.

Galatians 3:19-26--Why then was the law given? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise was made would come. The law was put into effect through angels by means of a mediator. Now a mediator is not for just one person, but God is one. Is the law therefore contrary to God’s promises? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that was able to give life, then righteousness would certainly be by the law. But the Scripture has imprisoned everything under sin’s power, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. Before this faith came, we were confined under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith was revealed. The law, then, was our guardian until Christ, so that we could be justified by faith. But since that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, for you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
.
 
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Grailhunter

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I'm curious. What passage do you mean?

I hope I may be able to explain it.

This passage is not just slavery, it includes concubinage. Women, all Hebrew women were property in this time period. And I am going to point out that dating does not occur until the last century and of course you remember the women's suffrage movement and the ERA. We are just coming out of this, even Christianity. Paul said there was no difference between male and female but He was slow to show that. Today women are still mostly second rate members in the church. Women pastors...preachers...OH my that from the devil!!!! Things move slow.

Exodus 21:7-11 If a man sells his daughter as a female slave, she is not to go free as the male slaves do. If she is displeasing in the eyes of her master who designated her for himself, then he shall let her be redeemed. He does not have authority to sell her to a foreign people because of his unfairness to her. If he designates her for his son, he shall deal with her according to the custom of daughters. If he takes to himself another woman, he may not reduce her food, her clothing, or her conjugal rights. If he will not do these three things for her, then she shall go out for nothing, without payment of money.
 

Grailhunter

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@Grailhunter:

I don't have the answers to all of your objections. But it seems to me that you are attempting to cast doubt on the veracity of the word of God.

There is a judgment coming. When you stand before Him, you can raise your objections to Him then and I'm certain He will have all of the answers.

But beware in the meantime, lest you be found His enemy over the fact that you are attempting to cast doubt on His word that brings salvation and therefore are fighting against the salvation of souls. I can assure you that God will not take kindly to that; especially if because of your behaviour someone in particular does not enter in to the kingdom who would have otherwise entered in.

More like casting truth
 

Grailhunter

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Up to more mischief, I see! Accusing God of double talk? So, when you don't understand something in the Bible, it must be the Bible that is wrong?

Even though I am in agreement with Paul--that Christians have died to the Mosaic law, which held us bound (Ro 7), I would not dare to call God's law into question as you have in this thread. God's law is good, and it's still very much in force to those who are under the law.

It really it the serpent's tongue that casts doubt onto God's word in this way. HAS GOD SAID...???

This is the problem with you mystics! You think that you have ascended above and beyond God's written word, and yet you will try to use His word to prove your poisonous point. Poison in the well!

Proverbs 30:5-6--Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.
Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.

Galatians 3:19-26--Why then was the law given? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise was made would come. The law was put into effect through angels by means of a mediator. Now a mediator is not for just one person, but God is one. Is the law therefore contrary to God’s promises? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that was able to give life, then righteousness would certainly be by the law. But the Scripture has imprisoned everything under sin’s power, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. Before this faith came, we were confined under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith was revealed. The law, then, was our guardian until Christ, so that we could be justified by faith. But since that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, for you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
.

Not putting God's Law into question, it is all there black and white. It is what it is. Nothing mystic about this, simple English. Looking at the Bible with preconceived notions can lead to false beliefs. The Old Testament was a harsh time and Christ made corrections and we are not under the Law. And Christ pointed out that Moses was behind at least one Law that was wrong. Did He have a serpents tongue?
 

Prayer Warrior

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Country
United States
Not putting God's Law into question, it is all there black and white. It is what it is. Nothing mystic about this, simple English. Looking at the Bible with preconceived notions can lead to false beliefs. The Old Testament was a harsh time and Christ made corrections and we are not under the Law. And Christ pointed out that Moses was behind at least one Law that was wrong. Did He have a serpents tongue?
Could you explains this, please? Which law would that be?