Keeping Jesus' commanads is requirement for salvation

[mjrhealth]

Your thinking of the Old Covenant, which included the book of the law written by Moses. The New Covenant contains God's law...that is the law that He wrote Himself on tablets of stone to show their permanence.

eb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

It all changed

2Co 3:2 Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:
2Co 3:3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
2Co 3:4 And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:

 

[Joyful]

It all changed

Yes, Jesus changed OT's standards to Jesus' high standards. He did not change to give us license to sin.

Jesus' love is not the same as world's love.

 

[Barrd]

eb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

It all changed

2Co 3:2 Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:
2Co 3:3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
2Co 3:4 And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:

Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Thank you, Mj, for making my point for me.
Yes, the New Covenant also contains God's law...the same law He wrote on tablets of stone will now be written in our minds and in our hearts...this is what the Holy Spirit does for us.

 

[ewq1938]

Yes, the New Covenant also contains God's law...the same law He wrote on tablets of stone will now be written in our minds and in our hearts...this is what the Holy Spirit does for us.

The law of the new covenant is different than the law of the old covenant. Christianity's Sabbath has nothing to do with a Saturday, or not cooking, not traveling, not working and certainly not observing certain parts of the old Sabbath and ignoring the parts we don't care for.

 

[Barrd]

The law of the new covenant is different than the law of the old covenant. Christianity's Sabbath has nothing to do with a Saturday, or not cooking, not traveling, not working and certainly not observing certain parts of the old Sabbath and ignoring the parts we don't care for.

I'm sorry you have a problem with the way my family keeps the Sabbath, but it has been working for us for over 30 years now, and God has blessed us.
We believe with all of our hearts that God's law has not changed, and this, too, has been good for us, both as a family, and as members of our community.
Now, you can do whatever you like, it is not my business how you choose to live.
But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.

 

[ewq1938]

I'm sorry you have a problem with the way my family keeps the Sabbath, but it has been working for us for over 30 years now, and God has blessed us.

I'm just trying to give you the Christian perspective on the subject of the Sabbath. Since God has fulfilled the Sabbath and changed it to something new, there is no value in the religious sense to keep all or part of the original Sabbath.

We believe with all of our hearts that God's law has not changed, and this, too, has been good for us, both as a family, and as members of our community.

Well that is simply wrong. Christianity has always taught and recognized the change in the Sabbath.

Now, you can do whatever you like, it is not my business how you choose to live.
But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.

You may think it's serves the Lord but he has no interest in what Christians do on Saturdays in regard to keeping parts of the original Sabbath. Those things are part of a different religion never commanded or recommended by Christ nor any of the writers of NT scripture. It is no different than thinking burnt offerings or blood offerings of animals pleases the Lord.

 

[Barrd]

I'm just trying to give you the Christian perspective on the subject of the Sabbath. Since God has fulfilled the Sabbath and changed it to something new, there is no value in the religious sense to keep all or part of the original Sabbath.

Where did God change it to something new?
Chapter and verse, please.

Well that is simply wrong. Christianity has always taught and recognized the change in the Sabbath.

Again, can you show me that? There are all kinds of scriptures that show Jesus keeping the Sabbath, and His Apostles also kept it, both before and after His resurrection, including Paul.

ewq1938 said:
You may think it's serves the Lord but he has no interest in what Christians do on Saturdays in regard to keeping parts of the original Sabbath. Those things are part of a different religion never commanded or recommended by Christ nor any of the writers of NT scripture. It is no different than thinking burnt offerings or blood offerings of animals pleases the Lord.

That, sir, is your opinion.
And you know what they say about opinions.
Everybody has one...

 

[ewq1938]

Where did God change it to something new?
Chapter and verse, please.

When Christ died on the cross the old covenant and it's laws and rules were put away and the new came into being. There are many verses to consider but this one says it the clearest:

2 Corinthians 3:3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.


I think it's clear even the ten commandments were changed since Christ did not list the 4th commandment as being needed for eternal life:




Matthew 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
Matthew 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Matthew 19:18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
Matthew 19:19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

He asked which commandments to keep and this is Jesus' answer:


1: Thou shalt do no murder

2: Thou shalt not commit adultery

3: Thou shalt not steal

4: Thou shalt not bear false witness

5: Honour thy father and thy mother

6: Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself



That's 6 of the 10 that were written in stone. These 6 are written upon our hearts on fleshy tables.






Exodus 20:3-17



1: Thou shalt have no other gods before me.


2: Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them.



3: Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.



4: Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work.



5: Honour thy father and thy mother.



6: Thou shalt not kill.


7: Thou shalt not commit adultery.



8: Neither shalt thou steal.


9: Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.


10: Thou shalt not covet any thing that is thy neighbour's.





So lets compare the ones Christ listed and the ones found in the OT. OT on the right and NT on the left:



1: Thou shalt do no murder 6: Thou shalt not kill.



2: Thou shalt not commit adultery 7: Thou shalt not commit adultery.



3: Thou shalt not steal 8: Neither shalt thou steal.


4: Thou shalt not bear false witness 9: Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.


5: Honour thy father and thy mother 5: Honour thy father and thy mother.


6: Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself 10: Thou shalt not covet any thing that is thy neighbour's.


Here are the 4 that Christ did not include:


1: Thou shalt have no other gods before me.


I believe this is clearly covered when he said, "Thou shalt not commit adultery" since we are to be married to God and having other gods is spiritual adultery.


2: Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them.


The same for this commandment. It is covered through not committing spiritual adultery.


3: Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.


I don't see how this is covered in the 6 commandments Christ spoke but we do know this:


Mark 3:28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
Mark 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:


Where one would be held guilty for taking the name of God in vain in the OT, in the NT we see it is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit which is unforgiveable.


Also, taking God's name in vain is like using something improperly, without proper reverence and God does not give permission for that. It's faintly related to theft in my opinion because it was "taken" in vain and without permission to do so.


4: Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work.


And lastly, this commandment is not mentioned by Christ, nor commanded by Christ nor by any NT scripture. This is why Christianity today and of the past did not as a whole keep the Saturday Sabbath as a day of rest from work. There is simply no NT commandment for it's literal practice. It is purely a ceremonial law and all such laws were fulfilled by Christ, Christ becoming these things. He is our sacrificed Lamb and He is our Sabbath.



I believe there is a difference between the written letter of the law even in the ten commandments and the higher moral meanings of them. I believe part of them were also fulfilled and nailed to the cross just as any of the other was.

Again, can you show me that? There are all kinds of scriptures that show Jesus keeping the Sabbath, and His Apostles also kept it, both before and after His resurrection, including Paul.

Paul never kept the Sabbath after his conversion. No evidence anyone else did post-resurrection. While Jesus lived, the first covenant was still in effect and thus the Saturday Sabbath was law, but they broke the Sabbath because the ministry was more important. I see no evidence that Christ or his disciples kept the original Sabbath during the 3 year ministry.

That, sir, is your opinion.
And you know what they say about opinions.
Everybody has one...

It's more than mere opinion. This is basic Christianity which has no Saturday Sabbath because a better one took it's place.

 

[justaname]

Do you really think you'd have to go to such an extreme to keep from sinning?

Your thinking of the Old Covenant, which included the book of the law written by Moses. The New Covenant contains God's law...that is the law that He wrote Himself on tablets of stone to show their permanence.

I'm guessing that "covet" is probably the hardest sin to avoid.

That's all that is being said, my friend.


Yes, John, the Beloved Disciple, focuses on walking as his Lord walked.
In love, and in obedience.
We are to walk the same way...
Exactly so.

But I'm wondering...what was your point in all of this?
Do you somehow think that you have proven that the Ten Commandments have gone away?
I do not see it...

Shalom back atcha!

I am not attempting to prove anything is taken away, if that were the case I would have posted quite a bit more content. Yet it is my conviction that we are no longer under the Law. I am also convinced no argument I may present will alter your personal interpretation of Scripture in this matter.

Yet I will say neither in antiquity nor in present modern times do Jews separate the Law...the Law contains 613 mitzvot...the ten are apportioned to the 613

To speak of the extremes, it is Jesus' command. This command is explicit, yet so many legalists dismiss it. I wonder...why?

 

[mjrhealth]

Gal 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

How hard is it.

Luk 5:39 No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.

Which is the new???

Pentecost

Act 2:12 And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this?
Act 2:13 Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.

Joh 2:10 And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now.

In All His Love

 

[tom55]

Not the Saturday Sabbath. He did not affirm that knowing that he would be our Sabbath/Rest. We can have that any day of the week, everyday if we wish and we can work and cook and travel as much as we want on Saturdays.

You are correct about the "Saturday Sabbath". According to Scripture the new Sabbath is held on the day of the Lord, Sunday!!

 

[Barrd]

Act 17:1 Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where was a synagogue of the Jews:
Act 17:2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures

Act 13:14 But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and sat down.

Act 13:42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.
Act 13:43 Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.
Act 13:44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.

Act 16:11 Therefore loosing from Troas, we came with a straight course to Samothracia, and the next day to Neapolis;
Act 16:12 And from thence to Philippi, which is the chief city of that part of Macedonia, and a colony: and we were in that city abiding certain days.
Act 16:13 And on the sabbath we went out of the city by a river side, where prayer was wont to be made; and we sat down, and spake unto the women which resorted thither.

Act 18:1 After these things Paul departed from Athens, and came to Corinth;
Act 18:2 And found a certain Jew named Aquila, born in Pontus, lately come from Italy, with his wife Priscilla; (because that Claudius had commanded all Jews to depart from Rome and came unto them.
Act 18:3 And because he was of the same craft, he abode with them, and wrought: for by their occupation they were tentmakers.
Act 18:4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks

Act 18:5 And when Silas and Timotheus were come from Macedonia, Paul was pressed in the spirit, and testified to the Jews that Jesus was Christ.
Act 18:6 And when they opposed themselves, and blasphemed, he shook his raiment, and said unto them, Your blood be upon your own heads; I am clean: from henceforth I will go unto the Gentiles.
Act 18:7 And he departed thence, and entered into a certain man's house, named Justus, one that worshipped God, whose house joined hard to the synagogue.
Act 18:8 And Crispus, the chief ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his house; and many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized.
Act 18:9 Then spake the Lord to Paul in the night by a vision, Be not afraid, but speak, and hold not thy peace:
Act 18:10 For I am with thee, and no man shall set on thee to hurt thee: for I have much people in this city.
Act 18:11 And he continued there a year and six months, teaching the word of God among them.

But I can't find one single verse that says that the Sabbath had been changed to Sunday. Not even one.


"The primitive Christians did keep the Sabbath of the Jews;.therefore the Christians for a long time together, did keep their conventions on the Sabbath, in which some portion of the Law were read: and this continued till the time of the Laodicean council." The Whole Works of Jeremey Taylor, Vol. IX, p416 (R. Heber's Edition, Vol.XII, p.416)
"The ancient Christians were very careful in the observation of Saturday, or the seventh day..It is plain that all the Oriental churches, and the greatest part of the world, observed the Sabbath as a festival...Athanasius likewise tells us that they held religious assemblies on the Sabbath, not because they were infected with Judaism, but to worship [Yahushua], the [Master] of the Sabbath, Epiphanius says the same." Antiquities of the Christian Church, Vol. II, Book XX, chap. 3, Sec. 1, 66.1137, 1138
"Ambrose, the celebrated bishop of Milan, said that when he was in Milan he observed Saturday, but when in Rome observed Sunday. This gave rise to the proverb 'When you are in Rome, do as Rome does,' " Heylyn, The History of the Sabbath, 1613

Then there were the Inquisitons:


"The Jewish wickedness" of which Xavier complained was evidently the Sabbath-keeping among those native Christians as we shall see in our next quotation. When one of these Sabbath-keeping Christians was taken by the Inquisition he was accused of having *Judaized*; which means having conformed to the ceremonies of the Mosaic Law; such as not eating pork, hare, fish without scales, of having attended the solemnization of the Sabbath." Account of the Inquisition at Goa, Dellon, p.56. London, 1815
"Of an hundred persons condemned to be burnt as Jews, there are scarcely four who profess that faith at their death; the rest exclaiming and protesting to their last gasp that they are Christians, and have been so during their whole lives." Ibid p.64

Even today, we know better, but...


"There was and is a commandment to keep holy the Sabbath day, but that Sabbath day was not on Sunday...It will be said, however, and with some show of triumph, that the Sabbath was transferred from the seventh to the first day of the week....where can the record of such a transaction be found? Not in the New Testament. Of course, I quite well know that Sunday did come into use in early Christian history as a religious day, as we learn from the Christian Fathers and other sources. But what a pity that it comes branded with the mark of paganism, and christened with the name of a sun god, when adopted and sanctioned by the papal apostasy, and bequeathed as a sacred legacy to Protestantism!" Dr. Edward Hiscox, author of The Baptist Manual

 

[Barrd]

You are correct about the "Saturday Sabbath". According to Scripture the new Sabbath is held on the day of the Lord, Sunday!!

Could you show me that from the Bible, Tom?
I mean, I just posted a whole list of scriptures showing that Paul, at least, kept the original Sabbath.
If someone could show me from the Scripture where someone with authority had actually changed the day, I will listen. I'm not completely unteachable...but it has to be from either Jesus, Himself, since He is the Lord of the Sabbath, as He proclaimed Himself to be, or at least from one of His Apostles. "Church fathers" who didn't come along until long after the Apostles were dead don't count.

 

[tom55]

[SIZE=10pt]Mark 16:1-2 says that He rose after the Sabbath had passed, on the “first day of the week”.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]In 1 Corinthians 16:2 (written around 55AD) it says[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] on the “first day of every week” they (early Christians) should set aside a sum of money so that when I (Paul) come no collections will have to be made.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]The Didache, (written around 80 AD) refers to the “Lords Day” as the day the early Christians gathered together to break bread.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]In Acts 20:7[/SIZE] (written around 100 AD) it says they came together on the “first day of the week” to break bread.

Collection of money! Breaking of bread! Sound familiar? (Church service)

[SIZE=10pt]John, in Revelation 1:10 (written around 96 AD), said he was “in the Spirit on the Lords Day”.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]Ignatius of Antioch (a Church Father who was a student of the Apostle John) in his letter to the Magnesian’s said they were… “[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]no longer observing the[/SIZE] [SIZE=10pt]Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord’s day, on which also our life has sprung up again by him and by his death". [/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]Since we historically know 2,000 years ago the Jews had no names for the weekdays they designated them with reference to their Sabbath (Saturday). Thus the first day, with reference to the Sabbath, would be the first day following the Sabbath or, as we now say in our day, “the first day of the week” which is Sunday which is the Lords Day.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]So as we can see from scripture and an early Church Father who was a student of an Apostle and historical Christian writings, Christians have been practicing Sunday as the Lords Day since the death of Jesus.[/SIZE]

Respectfully…Tom55

 

[tom55]

The Barrd said:

I mean, I just posted a whole list of scriptures showing that Paul, at least, kept the original Sabbath.


[SIZE=10pt]I say to you: The list of Scriptures you posted show Paul (a Christian) walking into a Jewish Church (communities), on the day the Jews worship (Sabbath), trying to convert and being successful at converting Jews to Christianity. He was going into the “den of thieves” on the day the thieves were present to speak out against them. Today, 2000 years later, if a Jew wanted to convert a Christian in the same manner he would have to go into a Christian Church on Sunday, the Day of our Lord.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]Respectfully....Tom55[/SIZE]

 

[ewq1938]

You are correct about the "Saturday Sabbath". According to Scripture the new Sabbath is held on the day of the Lord, Sunday!!

Actually no scripture reassigns the Sabbath to any particular day. The Sabbath is Christ and that is any day, everyday, forever.

 

[ewq1938]

Going to a Synagogue to convert Jews to Christ is not "keeping the Sabbath". Any Christian keeping the Sabbath in the early days of the church were doing it in ignorance of the true Sabbath. The Church in general did not keep the Sabbath in the original way, just as it does not today. There has always been a small minority that keeps a small part of the original Sabbath. I doubt many if any actually keep it properly according to the original rules...while still not something God wants, at least it would be impressive that they went through all the same efforts the OT Jews did.




Acts 2:46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,
Acts 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.


Here they met every day. That includes Saturdays and Sundays. There wasn't a certain, commanded day of the week to meet together in the temple (known as going to church in modern times).




Acts 5:41 And they departed from the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer shame for his name.
Acts 5:42 And daily in the temple, and in every house, they ceased not to teach and preach Jesus Christ.



Same is seen here.



Acts 13:13 Now when Paul and his company loosed from Paphos, they came to Perga in Pamphylia: and John departing from them returned to Jerusalem.
Acts 13:14 But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and sat down.


Some believe that Paul went to the Synagogue because he "kept the Sabbath" but there is nothing in the texts to suggest anything like this. Paul merely went to where people were gathered so he could preach Jesus to them.



Acts 13:42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.
Acts 13:43 Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.
Acts 13:44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.
Acts 13:45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming.
Acts 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.


Paul also was able to preach to both Gentiles and Jews at the Synagogue.



Acts 17:16 Now while Paul waited for them at Athens, his spirit was stirred in him, when he saw the city wholly given to idolatry.
Acts 17:17 Therefore disputed he in the synagogue with the Jews, and with the devout persons, and in the market daily with them that met with him.


Here we see that Paul would go whereever and whenever to reach people to preach to.



Acts 19:8 And he went into the synagogue, and spake boldly for the space of three months, disputing and persuading the things concerning the kingdom of God.
Acts 19:9 But when divers were hardened, and believed not, but spake evil of that way before the multitude, he departed from them, and separated the disciples, disputing daily in the school of one Tyrannus.


He preached every day. It didn't matter if it was Saturday or Wednesday. All days were the same to Paul. The important thing for him was to spread the Gospel.



Acts 17:2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,
Acts 17:3 Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ.


So here we read "as his manner was". Shall we assume that this means he "kept the Sabbath" ie: didn't work, didn't travel far, didn't bear a burden or kindle a fire? Of course not. His "manner" was to go to the Jews and Gentiles on a Saturday where they were gathered and "reason" (this means to discuss and debate) with them about how Jesus was the promised Messiah. Shoot, Christians should do that to this day! Every Saturday they should come into temples and synagogues and "reason" with the people there about Jesus and the gospel! That wouldn't mean these Christians "kept the Sabbath"

Act 17:1 Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where was a synagogue of the Jews:
Act 17:2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures

Act 13:14 But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and sat down.

Act 13:42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.
Act 13:43 Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.
Act 13:44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.

Act 16:11 Therefore loosing from Troas, we came with a straight course to Samothracia, and the next day to Neapolis;
Act 16:12 And from thence to Philippi, which is the chief city of that part of Macedonia, and a colony: and we were in that city abiding certain days.
Act 16:13 And on the sabbath we went out of the city by a river side, where prayer was wont to be made; and we sat down, and spake unto the women which resorted thither.

Act 18:1 After these things Paul departed from Athens, and came to Corinth;
Act 18:2 And found a certain Jew named Aquila, born in Pontus, lately come from Italy, with his wife Priscilla; (because that Claudius had commanded all Jews to depart from Rome and came unto them.
Act 18:3 And because he was of the same craft, he abode with them, and wrought: for by their occupation they were tentmakers.
Act 18:4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks

Act 18:5 And when Silas and Timotheus were come from Macedonia, Paul was pressed in the spirit, and testified to the Jews that Jesus was Christ.
Act 18:6 And when they opposed themselves, and blasphemed, he shook his raiment, and said unto them, Your blood be upon your own heads; I am clean: from henceforth I will go unto the Gentiles.
Act 18:7 And he departed thence, and entered into a certain man's house, named Justus, one that worshipped God, whose house joined hard to the synagogue.
Act 18:8 And Crispus, the chief ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his house; and many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized.
Act 18:9 Then spake the Lord to Paul in the night by a vision, Be not afraid, but speak, and hold not thy peace:
Act 18:10 For I am with thee, and no man shall set on thee to hurt thee: for I have much people in this city.
Act 18:11 And he continued there a year and six months, teaching the word of God among them.

But I can't find one single verse that says that the Sabbath had been changed to Sunday. Not even one.


"The primitive Christians did keep the Sabbath of the Jews;.therefore the Christians for a long time together, did keep their conventions on the Sabbath, in which some portion of the Law were read: and this continued till the time of the Laodicean council." The Whole Works of Jeremey Taylor, Vol. IX, p416 (R. Heber's Edition, Vol.XII, p.416)
"The ancient Christians were very careful in the observation of Saturday, or the seventh day..It is plain that all the Oriental churches, and the greatest part of the world, observed the Sabbath as a festival...Athanasius likewise tells us that they held religious assemblies on the Sabbath, not because they were infected with Judaism, but to worship [Yahushua], the [Master] of the Sabbath, Epiphanius says the same." Antiquities of the Christian Church, Vol. II, Book XX, chap. 3, Sec. 1, 66.1137, 1138
"Ambrose, the celebrated bishop of Milan, said that when he was in Milan he observed Saturday, but when in Rome observed Sunday. This gave rise to the proverb 'When you are in Rome, do as Rome does,' " Heylyn, The History of the Sabbath, 1613

Then there were the Inquisitons:


"The Jewish wickedness" of which Xavier complained was evidently the Sabbath-keeping among those native Christians as we shall see in our next quotation. When one of these Sabbath-keeping Christians was taken by the Inquisition he was accused of having *Judaized*; which means having conformed to the ceremonies of the Mosaic Law; such as not eating pork, hare, fish without scales, of having attended the solemnization of the Sabbath." Account of the Inquisition at Goa, Dellon, p.56. London, 1815
"Of an hundred persons condemned to be burnt as Jews, there are scarcely four who profess that faith at their death; the rest exclaiming and protesting to their last gasp that they are Christians, and have been so during their whole lives." Ibid p.64

Even today, we know better, but...


"There was and is a commandment to keep holy the Sabbath day, but that Sabbath day was not on Sunday...It will be said, however, and with some show of triumph, that the Sabbath was transferred from the seventh to the first day of the week....where can the record of such a transaction be found? Not in the New Testament. Of course, I quite well know that Sunday did come into use in early Christian history as a religious day, as we learn from the Christian Fathers and other sources. But what a pity that it comes branded with the mark of paganism, and christened with the name of a sun god, when adopted and sanctioned by the papal apostasy, and bequeathed as a sacred legacy to Protestantism!" Dr. Edward Hiscox, author of The Baptist Manual

 

[Barrd]

Tom:

[SIZE=10pt]Mark 16:1-2 says that He rose after the Sabbath had passed, on the “first day of the week”.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]The Barrd:[/SIZE]
Here is the verse you cited:
Mar 16:1 And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him.
It goes on to say that the women were concerned about how they would roll the stone that sealed the entrance to the tomb away, but when they got there, the tomb was already opened. They met a young man in a long white robe who told them that Jesus was risen, and that they'd see Him in Galilee.
It doesn't specifically say that He rose "after the Sabbath had passed", but assuming that is what is meant, why did He wait? Was He "resting"? Hmmmm.

Tom:
[SIZE=10pt]In 1 Corinthians 16:2 (written around 55AD) it says[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] on the “first day of every week” they (early Christians) should set aside a sum of money so that when I (Paul) come no collections will have to be made.[/SIZE]

The Barrd:
Here is the verse you cited:
1Co 16:2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.
The first day of the week would have been a working day. We modern Christians have forgotten just what that would have meant to these ancient people. There would have been little time for a regular meeting.
And no meeting is mentioned here. The Corinthians are being instructed to put some money aside (lay by him in store), so that when he got there, the money would be ready.

Tom:
[SIZE=10pt]The Didache, (written around 80 AD) refers to the “Lords Day” as the day the early Christians gathered together to break bread.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]The Barrd:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]From the Christian History web site:[/SIZE]


Introduction
The Didache meaning “Teaching” is the short name of a Christian manual compiled before 300AD. The full title is The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles. Some Christians thought Didache was inspired, but the church rejected it when making the final decision which books to include in the New Testament.
Didache contained instructions for Christian groups; and its statement of belief may be the first written catechism. It has four parts: the first is the “Two Ways, the Way of Life and the Way of Death;” the second explains how to perform rituals such as baptism, fasting, and Communion; the third covers ministry and how to deal with traveling teachers; the fourth part is a reminder that Jesus is coming again, with quotations from several New Testament passages which exhort Christians to live godly lives and prepare for “that day.”

https://www.christianhistoryinstitute.org/study/module/didache/
While the Didache is a very good source, it was not actually written by the Apostles, nor was it included in the canon.
However, having read the text, it does have me thinking. I'm not quite convinced, because there is too much evidence in the Bible that the early church started out keeping the original Sabbath. But it does have me thinking.

Tom:
[SIZE=10pt]In Acts 20:7[/SIZE] (written around 100 AD) it says they came together on the “first day of the week” to break bread.

The Barrd:
Here is the verse you cited:
Act 20:7 And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.
Paul was leaving the next day. This was not a eucharist, this was a farewell dinner. And, of course, Paul took the opportunity, as he always did, to preach.
Paul was long-winded that night...and a young man fell asleep, and fell to his death. What a horrible thing to occur! Long winded preachers, take warning! Keep your messages short and simple!
Fortunately, Paul was able to restore the poor kid to life. Whew!
In any case, this could have been a special occasion, and not necessarily a weekly occurrence...just as well for young men who had worked that day!

Tom:
Collection of money! Breaking of bread! Sound familiar? (Church service)

The Barrd:
You mean, a modern day church service. What makes you so sure that those early meetings were anything like what we experience today?

Tom:
[SIZE=10pt]John, in Revelation 1:10 (written around 96 AD), said he was “in the Spirit on the Lords Day”.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]The Barrd:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]Do you think John was at a church service when this happened? [/SIZE]

Tom:
[SIZE=10pt]Ignatius of Antioch (a Church Father who was a student of the Apostle John) in his letter to the Magnesian’s said they were… “[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]no longer observing the[/SIZE] [SIZE=10pt]Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord’s day, on which also our life has sprung up again by him and by his death". [/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]The Barrd:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]But where was the Divine Authority to go changing God's Sabbath?[/SIZE]

Tom:
[SIZE=10pt]Since we historically know 2,000 years ago the Jews had no names for the weekdays they designated them with reference to their Sabbath (Saturday). Thus the first day, with reference to the Sabbath, would be the first day following the Sabbath or, as we now say in our day, “the first day of the week” which is Sunday which is the Lords Day.[/SIZE]

The Barrd:
Traditionally, it is the day that the Lord rose from the dead and went back to work. Don't forget, to these people, the first day of the week was a working day...and also don't forget that they knew nothing of an eight hour workday. Most, if not all of these early Christians would be poor people who had to work hard for a living. I'm not convinced that they even had time for a regular weekly meeting, complete with collections, and a eucharist, and long winded sermons. And I'm pretty sure that they'd be much too tired to put their minds on worship.

Tom:
[SIZE=10pt]So as we can see from scripture and an early Church Father who was a student of an Apostle and historical Christian writings, Christians have been practicing Sunday as the Lords Day since the death of Jesus.[/SIZE]

The Barrd:
And if we keep practicing, maybe eventually we'll get it right.
All kidding aside, at this point, we've managed to rip the Body of Christ into some 30,000 different "denominations", all of whom think all the rest are "doing it wrong".
And let's not forget that we have a vicious enemy "raging up and down like a lion", waiting to pounce on us in our weakness....for surely being divided up as we are, we are weak, and easily swayed. We have paid pastors who will preach just what we want to hear...
Perhaps if we had kept God's original Sabbath as He intended, He might have kept us together?
Just a thought...

Tom:
Respectfully…Tom55

The Barrd:
Thank you Tom.
And all my love back atcha.

The Barrd

 

[ewq1938]

Tom:

[SIZE=10pt]Mark 16:1-2 says that He rose after the Sabbath had passed, on the “first day of the week”.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]The Barrd:[/SIZE]
Here is the verse you cited:
Mar 16:1 And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him.
It goes on to say that the women were concerned about how they would roll the stone that sealed the entrance to the tomb away, but when they got there, the tomb was already opened. They met a young man in a long white robe who told them that Jesus was risen, and that they'd see Him in Galilee.
It doesn't specifically say that He rose "after the Sabbath had passed", but assuming that is what is meant, why did He wait? Was He "resting"? Hmmmm.

He said he would be in the grave for 3 days, Sunday was the third day. He could not have risen on the Sabbath.

Mat_12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

 

[Barrd]

From Friday afternoon to Sunday morning isn't quite three days and nights, even if you count Friday as one day.