KJV vs. other translations

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Davy

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It sounds to me as if you are obsessed by this. Calm down dear. I read the intro in my NIV and am satisfied that it is a good translation. I bought my first one direct from the Bible Society.
I've been clam all along. Just because someone has righteous indignation against those who work against Christ, does not mean they are in a rage.

Use whatever you want. I never told anyone to not use whatever Bible version they want. Even in posts with you, what has been my main concern do you think? How you've been brainwashed against the KJV Bible with the excuses you made. If you want easy reading, use the NIV. But if you want accuracy, refer to the KJV.
 

Jim B

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Yes, it does mean I have a 'personal bias' against the modern translations using the corrupt manuscripts from the Alexandria school in Egypt. Those texts follow more on the line of thinking like Origen who was excommunicated, and Clement who also tried to create a system of 'philosophy' instead of the revealed Word of God. Those behind those Alexandria texts represent a creation by the "tares" that crept in. This is why the NIV omits many passages that show the Deity of Lord Jesus Christ.

You are obviously one of many deceived brethren that bought into the 'new and improved lies' the devil's children pushed with their modern translations. Some of those translators were not even Christians! At least all the scholars for the KJV were believers on Jesus Christ.

This is total nonsense. "... instead of the revealed Word of God"? If you did a little research you would find that your bias is based on false information.

Making an absurd statement like "the NIV omits many passages that show the Deity of Lord Jesus Christ" shows your insanity! It is an excellent translation, based on excellent sources and excellent scholarship.

You are obviously one of many deceived brethren! Calling the ecumenical committee that produced the NIV and most other recent translations clearly exhibits your blindness.

Your despising God's word in modern English is prompted by Satan!
 

Jim B

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the french say many things as does the english , german and man himself . But lambs take HEED to what JESUS said .
Now lift those hands and praise the LORD .
In case you're not aware, the French and Germans are "man", meaning of course, human (men and women).
 

amigo de christo

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It sounds to me as if you are obsessed by this. Calm down dear. I read the intro in my NIV and am satisfied that it is a good translation. I bought my first one direct from the Bible Society.
Oh . good then . If that is how simple it is to make one trust
one could try that with food and water . Dont worry that what is inside might be poison
just take our word it aint and all is well . I actually read other bibles . . Not to disprove them
but because i wanted too . But all were as Seven up , never had it never will . the only drink that could satisfy my taste
was the kjv . This is not said to condemn anyone who reads another version . Just saying .
 
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ButterflyJones

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My family used the KJV exclusively when I was growing up in the church.

I now find the NET Bible useful. The Mounce Greek translation version that cross references English and Greek text is wonderful.

I like the English Standard Version. And the Holman version has a tremendous history as to how it came to be.
 
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Jim B

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Oh . good then . If that is how simple it is to make one trust
one could try that with food and water . Dont worry that what is inside might be poison
just take our word it aint and all is well . I actually read other bibles . . Not to disprove them
but because i wanted too . But all were as Seven up , never had it never will . the only drink that could satisfy my taste
was the kjv . This is not said to condemn anyone who reads another version . Just saying .
You, as usual, are clearly condemning those of us who prefer modern, accurate, well-written translations written in our language. The KJV has had it day; face facts!
 

Netchaplain

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Yep true faith saves . The problem is many have faith in what paul would have called another jesus or another spirit or another gospel .
If one can be misled or deceived concerning the truth, it's only because they are not truly seeking seeking the truth.; for the "elect" cannot be "deceived" (Mat 24:24; Mar 13:22). "Seek, and ye shall find." Thus, if we do not find, it's because we're not seeking! God bless!
 

amigo de christo

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If one can be misled or deceived concerning the truth, it's only because they are not truly seeking seeking the truth.; for the "elect" cannot be "deceived" (Mat 24:24; Mar 13:22). "Seek, and ye shall find." Thus, if we do not find, it's because we're not seeking! God bless!
EXACTLY . now this is SPOT ON RIGHT . if one is misled its cause they DESIRED IT . JESUS HAS THE LAMBS
and HIS VOICE they do heed and they follow him and a strangers voice they WILL NOT FOLLOW .
 

Netchaplain

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EXACTLY . now this is SPOT ON RIGHT . if one is misled its cause they DESIRED IT . JESUS HAS THE LAMBS
and HIS VOICE they do heed and they follow him and a strangers voice they WILL NOT FOLLOW .
This is the kicker--"Howbeit when He, the Spirit of truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth! (Jhn 16:13).
 

Davy

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This is total nonsense. "... instead of the revealed Word of God"? If you did a little research you would find that your bias is based on false information.

Making an absurd statement like "the NIV omits many passages that show the Deity of Lord Jesus Christ" shows your insanity! It is an excellent translation, based on excellent sources and excellent scholarship.

You are obviously one of many deceived brethren! Calling the ecumenical committee that produced the NIV and most other recent translations clearly exhibits your blindness.

Your despising God's word in modern English is prompted by Satan!
I despise those like Westcott and Hort who delved in the Occult of spiritism, and presented a CORRUPT New Testament translation from the undocumented Codex Vaticanus (that was only found in the Vatican library in 1475 A.D.), and the Codex Sinaiticus (that was found in a trash bin at a Greek monastery in 1850 by Tischendorf, with only his personal testimony of its dating.)
 
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Pierac

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I despise those like Westcott and Hort who delved in the Occult of spiritism, and presented a CORRUPT New Testament translation from the undocumented Codex Vaticanus (that was only found in the Vatican library in 1475 A.D.), and the Codex Sinaiticus (that was found in a trash bin at a Greek monastery in 1850 by Tischendorf, with only his personal testimony of its dating.)
Yea, Its people like you that put horns on Moses....

What happens when you get a translator who mistranslates scripture? How about a translation that is the only accepted version allowed to be used? And what if that translation was the only Bible used for over 1000 years. Could one simple mistranslation alter our view on scripture for over 1000 years? You bet your horny Moses!

Medieval artwork sometimes portrays Moses with horns. This depiction derives from Jerome's mistranslation of verses in Exodus 34. Verse 29: "he knew not that his face was horned from the conversation of the Lord." Verse 30: "And Aaron and the children of Israel seeing the face of Moses horned, were afraid to come near." Verse 35: "And they saw that the face of Moses when he came our was horned." Rather than being "horned" Moses face "shone," as in the Old Latin and the Septuagint read.

1)(Qal) send out rays
2) (Hiphil) display (grow) horns (be fully developed).

Qaran is derived from H7161, which is a noun meaning "horn." Jerome took the basic meaning of the word and neglected its derived meaning of "to emit rays." Many times in Hebrew one must assign the meaning of a word based on its context. In Psalm 69:31 qaran is used to describe an ox or young bull. There the translation as "horn" is appropriate. But in Exodus 34:29 qaran is used in conjunction with the phrase "skin of his face." From the context of following versus the meaning as "horns" is not supported. The Apostle Paul understood this to mean "shone" and not "grew horns" as can be seen from 2 Corinthians 3:7-13.


Jerome translated the Latin Vulgate, which was the official bible of the Catholic Church for well over 1000 years.

Your KJV is no different... You don't even know your biblical history... So how can you even begin to preach Davy???

Yes... Please... comment... I have soooo much more on your 1611 KJV

Easy Davy... So easy...
 

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Davy

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Yea, Its people like you that put horns on Moses....

What happens when you get a translator who mistranslates scripture? How about a translation that is the only accepted version allowed to be used? And what if that translation was the only Bible used for over 1000 years. Could one simple mistranslation alter our view on scripture for over 1000 years? You bet your horny Moses!

Medieval artwork sometimes portrays Moses with horns. This depiction derives from Jerome's mistranslation of verses in Exodus 34. Verse 29: "he knew not that his face was horned from the conversation of the Lord." Verse 30: "And Aaron and the children of Israel seeing the face of Moses horned, were afraid to come near." Verse 35: "And they saw that the face of Moses when he came our was horned." Rather than being "horned" Moses face "shone," as in the Old Latin and the Septuagint read.

1)(Qal) send out rays
2) (Hiphil) display (grow) horns (be fully developed).

Qaran is derived from H7161, which is a noun meaning "horn." Jerome took the basic meaning of the word and neglected its derived meaning of "to emit rays." Many times in Hebrew one must assign the meaning of a word based on its context. In Psalm 69:31 qaran is used to describe an ox or young bull. There the translation as "horn" is appropriate. But in Exodus 34:29 qaran is used in conjunction with the phrase "skin of his face." From the context of following versus the meaning as "horns" is not supported. The Apostle Paul understood this to mean "shone" and not "grew horns" as can be seen from 2 Corinthians 3:7-13.


Jerome translated the Latin Vulgate, which was the official bible of the Catholic Church for well over 1000 years.

Your KJV is no different... You don't even know your biblical history... So how can you even begin to preach Davy???

Yes... Please... comment... I have soooo much more on your 1611 KJV

Easy Davy... So easy...
Your idiotic tirade doesn't work.

The manuscripts Wescott and Hort used to make their Greek New Testament translation, still have NOT been historically documented! It's just heresy with the false claim of the "oldest and best" idea.

It's the same old problem that Israel has had since leaving Egypt, crept in unawares of the "tares" that are servants of the devil have crept into the field of 'higher critics' that are pushing corrupt texts.
 

Pierac

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Your idiotic tirade doesn't work.

The manuscripts Wescott and Hort used to make their Greek New Testament translation, still have NOT been historically documented! It's just heresy with the false claim of the "oldest and best" idea.

It's the same old problem that Israel has had since leaving Egypt, crept in unawares of the "tares" that are servants of the devil have crept into the field of 'higher critics' that are pushing corrupt texts.
Yea... I was pointing out how one single person can mis lead people like you for over 1000 years... Now let's look at your KJV.... Erasmus put together his English translation of the Greek manuscripts in the 1500's in less than a year. He had only 5 manuscripts and was forced to use the latin Vulgate to fill in the gaps.... Not exactly historical in context... Westcott and Hort spent 25 years using hundreds of newly found manuscripts along with the 5 Erasmus used... Manuscripts much closer to the time of Jesus... Thus WHY YOUR MODERN KJV READS THE SAME AS OTHER MODERN BIBLES TODAY... So either your wrong or the KJV you think you know so well... sold out.... YOU be the judge... Stop following others and seek the truth for yourself... I don't need to humiliate you any further...
 
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Jim B

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Why can't people understand that the KJV is just a translation, based on the best available source documents, earlier versions, and the best scholarship of the time?

Today, we have many more sources and much better scholarship. And the goal of modern translators is to create English bibles that most closely resemble the early manuscripts in order to communicate as accurately as possible what those documents said and meant. That is entirely different than the King James translators who had one goal: satisfy their secular ruler so that he and his version of Protestantism became "the law of the land".

Additionally, the antiquated Englyshe is no longer spoken anywhere in the world, That is unlike the ancient Hebrew, Aramaic, and Koine Greek, which were the languages of the Biblical era. The KJV Language sounds lofty and "religious", but the early languages do not. They were the languages of the people! Jesus, who was a common tradesman, spoke Aramaic. Can you imagine Jesus speaking to thousands of common people in a language that few, if any, understood?

Additionally, I can't recall how many times I have heard, after hearing someone reading publicly from the KJV, say "now what this means", re-translating on the fly so people will understand their personal interpretation of what God said.

People worship a single translation as thought it is the fourth member of the Godhead. It's a tragic joke!
 

Pierac

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Additionally, the antiquated Englyshe is no longer spoken anywhere in the world, That is unlike the ancient Hebrew, Aramaic, and Koine Greek, which were the languages of the Biblical era. The KJV Language sounds lofty and "religious", but the early languages do not. They were the languages of the people! Jesus, who was a common tradesman, spoke Aramaic. Can you imagine Jesus speaking to thousands of common people in a language that few, if any, understood?

Did Jesus only speak in Aramaic? Maybe, maybe not.... Yet Jesus did not speak to Paul in Aramaic....
Act 26:14 "And when we had all fallen to the ground, I heard a voice saying to me in
the Hebrew dialect, 'Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.'

But Jesus did on the cross... Mar 14:36 And He was saying, "Abba! Father! All things are possible for You; remove this cup from Me; yet not what I will, but what You will." (As the word Abba
means "Father" in Aramaic.)

It is interesting that some individuals who espouse the inerrancy of the Scriptures will take a specific passage in the New Testament that refers to Jesus speaking Hebrew (Acts 26:14), or Paul speaking Hebrew (Acts 21:40), and say, "that means Aramaic, and not Hebrew.) The " Aramaic Theory" has so heavily influenced Biblical scholarship that even those who should be most capable of working with the Biblical text, namely, some Bible translators, have translated “Aramaic” when the original text specifically states "Hebrew."

Since the majority of scholars have favored Aramaic origins for the Synoptic Gospels, there must be strong reasons for their acceptance of this theory. But, when one examines the evidence one learns that there are no strong reasons available to support an Aramaic origin apart from the appearance of certain Aramaic, or what often seems to be Aramaic words or phrases scattered throughout the New Testament text, particularly the text of the Gospels. In fact, it is much stronger evidence against the theory of Aramaic origins.

A revolution is taking place in our understanding of the New Testament. With the rebirth of Israel in 1947-1948 came the dramatic discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls. These priceless, ancient manuscripts, followed a few years later by the discovery of the Bar-Chochba letters, became vital contributions to a fuller understanding of the New Testament writings.

Many scholars in Israel are now convinced that the spoken and written language of the Jews in the land of Israel at the time of Jesus was indeed Hebrew; and that the Synoptic Gospels were derived from original Hebrew sources. The scholars, fluent in both Greek and Hebrew, have proposed impressive solutions to major problems of New Testament interpretation. Important discoveries which they have made serve to illuminate the very Hebraic style of speech used by Jesus and his followers, and to make possible a more accurate translation of the Gospels. With a new understanding of the language Jesus spoke, they are now able to correct numerous mistranslations in the English text of the New Testament.

Jehoshua M Grintz wrote an article entitled "Hebrew as The Spoken and Written Language in The Last Days of The Second Temple" (Grintz 1960). On the basis of his study of Matthew's Gospel and other literature contemporary with the Gospels, Grintz asserted that "Hebrew was the only literary language of that time; and to this alone we can attribute the fact that the new sect of ‘unlearned an ignorant men’ (Acts 4:13) set out to right its main book, intended for its Jewish members, in this language" (Grintz 1960:46).

Professor David Flusser of the Hebrew University of Jerusalem claims there are hundreds of Semitisms (Semitic idioms) in the Synoptic Gospels which could only be Hebrew, but there are no Semitisms which could only be Aramaic without also being good Hebrew.

Dr. Moshe Bar-Asher a foremost Aramaic scholar at the Hebrew University, says that he believes the Synoptic Gospels go back to a Greek translation of an original Hebrew (not Aramaic!) document.

Professor Frank Cross, of Harvard University, is probably the leading living authority on the handwriting of the Dead Sea Scrolls. Professor Cross has stated that by observing the handwriting of the various scribes who copy the scrolls over the centuries at Qumran, yet can be seen that the dominant language of Palestine, beginning about 130 B.C., was Hebrew. Cents, after 130 B.C., describes of Qumran no longer made mistakes when copying Hebrew texts, Cross determined that their principal language was Hebrew, and that they had an inferior knowledge of Aramaic grammar and syntax.

An impressive amount of extra biblical evidence points to the use of Hebrew in the first century Israel: the testimony of the Church fathers, the Dead Sea Scrolls, coins, and inscriptions from the first century B.C.- A.D., the writings of Josephus, and Rabbinic literature. Even at Masada, Herod's stronghold overlooking the Dead Sea, archaeologists excavated from 1963 to 1965 under the direction of Professor Yigael Yadin. The epi- graphical evidence is staggering: fragments of 14 scrolls, over 4000 coins, and more than 700 ostraka (inscribed pottery fragments) in Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek, and Latin. Here too, the ratio of Hebrew to Aramaic exceeds nine to one.

There is also textual evidence to prove that Jesus delivered his parables in Hebrew. Note how Hebraic they are, as illustrated by the parable of the prodigal son:



And his father saw him, and had compassion, and fell on his neck,

and kissed him…. And the father said to his servants, "bring quickly the

best robe, and put it on him, and put [literally, "give," a Hebrew idiom] a ring

on his hand and sandals on his feet, and bring the fatted calf, and kill it, and

let us eat and make merry" (Luke 15:20, 22, 23).


This passage is an excellent example of one of the characteristic features of Hebrew syntax. Greek, like other European languages, does not have this kind of sentence structure with the conjunction "and" appearing over and over again. Greek prefers to subordinate an independent clause to the main clause of the sentence. For example: "when I woke up, I got dressed. As soon as I ate breakfast, I brush my teeth. After I read the morning newspaper, I drove to work." Hebrew, on the other hand, prefers to join clauses with the conjunction "and." To the European, this continual usage of "and" is distracting and sometimes irritating.

The Hebraic undertext is revealed not only in sentence structure but in many literalisms and idioms present, which are particular to the Hebrew language. And an ability to recognize these Hebraisms has caused much difficulty in the interpretation and understanding of many of the sayings of Jesus. However, many sayings of Jesus seem to make sense in English translation, but means something entirely different than what we think. For example:

The Kingdom of God is at hand [or literally, "near"] (Luke 10:9).

Whatsoever thou shall bind (or loose) on earth shall be bound (or loose) in heaven (Matt.16:19).

Except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye tell in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven (Matt 5:20).

Think not that I have come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily, I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass, one jolt or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled (Matthew 5:17- 18).

The above sayings all seem to make sense. The problem is that many words in Hebrew have overtones that do not exist in English. A Hebrew word often has a much wider range of meaning than its English or Greek literal equivalent. Since our English gospels are derived from a Hebrew original, many of the English words do not mean what they appear to mean. As would be expected with a translation from Hebrew, we see the wider range of Hebrew meaning in many of the words used, rather than the more limited range of English or Greek meaning.

When we speak of Hebraisms or Hebrew idioms in our Greek or English text, what we are is really speaking about are "literalisms" - overly literal translations of Hebrew idioms. How can one detect a literalism? We detect a literalisms in the same way that we can tell if a person, who is speaking English, is thinking in another language. If, for instance, we hear a person say in English, "Throw the cow over the fence some hay," or "Go the hill down and turn the corner around," we know the speaker is speaking in German. If someone says, "Help you me to find the ball," we know the speaker is thinking in Spanish. "I want somebody a book to give" indicates that the speaker is Dutch. "We will be happy to receive your faces at our son's birthday party," indicates that the speaker is thinking in Hebrew. We can recognize the speaker's native tongue because every language has its own unique idioms and sentence structures. Often only the person who is familiar with the language of the idiom will understand the idiom. Rigidly literal translations of Hebrew idioms often give the reader the wrong impression.

In Hebrew, there are many synonyms for "salvation." The word "salvation" itself is little used. Other words express this concept more powerfully. "Righteousness" is one of the synonyms for "salvation." Zion is called "the city of righteousness" (Isaiah 1:26). The branch of David is called "the Lord is our righteousness"


Crazy how confusing it can all get real fast....
 

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Jim B

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Did Jesus only speak in Aramaic? Maybe, maybe not.... Yet Jesus did not speak to Paul in Aramaic....
Act 26:14 "And when we had all fallen to the ground, I heard a voice saying to me in
the Hebrew dialect, 'Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.'

But Jesus did on the cross... Mar 14:36 And He was saying, "Abba! Father! All things are possible for You; remove this cup from Me; yet not what I will, but what You will." (As the word Abba
means "Father" in Aramaic.)

It is interesting that some individuals who espouse the inerrancy of the Scriptures will take a specific passage in the New Testament that refers to Jesus speaking Hebrew (Acts 26:14), or Paul speaking Hebrew (Acts 21:40), and say, "that means Aramaic, and not Hebrew.) The " Aramaic Theory" has so heavily influenced Biblical scholarship that even those who should be most capable of working with the Biblical text, namely, some Bible translators, have translated “Aramaic” when the original text specifically states "Hebrew."

<snip>
I stopped reading this l-e-n-g-t-h-y post after a few sentences, as I have better things to do with my time.

However, these things caught my eye: Act 26:14 "And when we had all fallen to the ground, I heard a voice saying to me in the Hebrew dialect, 'Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.'

The footnote in the NRSVue for this verse is "That is, Aramaic".
NET "When we had all fallen to the ground, I heard a voice saying to me in Aramaic"
NIV, "We all fell to the ground, and I heard a voice saying to me in Aramaic"
NLY, "
We all fell down, and I heard a voice saying to me in Aramaic"

Aramaic IS a Hebrew dialect!

Claiming that some Bible translators, have translated “Aramaic” when the original text specifically states "Hebrew" is nonsense.

It's interesting that in your post you ignore the fact that the great majority of the NT was written in Koine Greek!!!