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Man Child is Jesus' Natural Birth to Mary?

Discussion in 'Eschatology & Prophecy Forum' started by afaithfulone4u, Apr 21, 2013.

  1. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    Where are all these 'junk' doctrines about the descriptive phrase "man child" for Christ in Rev.12 coming from? They sound PAGAN in origin, especially with fleshy ideas like Christ being re-born into flesh again!

    The first five verses of Revelation 12 cover a vast amount of time. It is a summary of events, nothing more...

    Rev 12:1-5
    1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

    These symbols Apostle John was shown represent Israel, especially with Joseph who had a dream about these symbols regarding he, his eleven brethren, and his mother and father (see Genesis 37).

    2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

    This is about the idea in Genesis 3 of the Seed of the Woman that Christ Jesus would be born through. This timeline at the begining of this world becomes more revealed as these Rev.12 verses go on. Then, you have to consider these subjects back to the start like in the first verse about Israel. A study in Malachi 1 about God's ordaining of Israel goes along with this, even with what Apostle Paul said in Romans 9 that before either child was born, God said He loved Jacob, but hated Esau.

    3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

    This great red dragon represents the devil, Satan. These seven heads, ten horns, and seven crowns represent his kingdom of old that he first rebelled against God with. That happened PRIOR to the start of this present world. So the timeline just jumped prior to the previous verses. For those with eyes to see and ears to hear, God is giving this so as to note WHY He chose Israel before the foundation of this world, and also His Son to be born in the flesh to die on the cross to defeat the devil.

    4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

    This verse covers the time back when the devil (red dragon) first rebelled against God, having drawn one third of the angels of heaven with him into rebellion. Then after the colon, is the start of the Seed of the Woman that Christ would be born through, with Satan's very first attempt to destroy that Seed (i.e., influencing Cain to kill his brother Abel). This kind of attack by the devil upon the Seed of the Woman continued all the way down to Christ's birth as a Child through Mary. It was the devil's attempt to prevent God's Plan of Salvation coming through His Son Jesus Christ.

    5 And she brought forth a Man Child, Who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her Child was caught up unto God, and to His throne.
    (KJV)

    Christ Jesus was born through the Seed of the Woman, i.e., Mary. Jesus was then crucified and raised by The Father, and ascended to the right hand of God's Throne, where He still is now. He is to rule with a rod of iron with His elect priests and kings in the near future "thousand years" reign of Revelation 20, which is just around the corner today.


    That's all... there is to those Scriptures. There is NO flesh reincarnation re-birth idea written there at all! That "Man Child" refers to Jesus of Nazareth only as The Christ, The Saviour, Immanuel God with us.
     
  2. 101G

    101G Well-Known Member

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    2 veteran, GINOLJC
    I must disagree with most of your posting.
    These symbols Apostle John was shown represent Israel, especially with Joseph who had a dream about these symbols regarding he, his eleven brethren, and his mother and father (see Genesis 37).

    this is Israel, the church in the wilderness, true.

    2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
    This is about the idea in Genesis 3 of the Seed of the Woman that Christ Jesus would be born through. This timeline at the begining of this world becomes more revealed as these Rev.12 verses go on. Then, you have to consider these subjects back to the start like in the first verse about Israel. A study in Malachi 1 about God's ordaining of Israel goes along with this, even with what Apostle Paul said in Romans 9 that before either child was born, God said He loved Jacob, but hated Esau.


    in the book of Revelation, a woman, symbolically represent a church, here the nation Israel (symbolically).

    3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
    This great red dragon represents the devil, Satan. These seven heads, ten horns, and seven crowns represent his kingdom of old that he first rebelled against God with. That happened PRIOR to the start of this present world. So the timeline just jumped prior to the previous verses. For those with eyes to see and ears to hear, God is giving this so as to note WHY He chose Israel before the foundation of this world, and also His Son to be born in the flesh to die on the cross to defeat the devil.


    here I must disagree with you. the red dragon is King Herod, which Satan is working through. and the reason why he is red, because of the blood he spilled in trying to kill the child Jesus the Christ.

    4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
    This verse covers the time back when the devil (red dragon) first rebelled against God, having drawn one third of the angels of heaven with him into rebellion. Then after the colon :)), is the start of the Seed of the Woman that Christ would be born through, with Satan's very first attempt to destroy that Seed (i.e., influencing Cain to kill his brother Abel). This kind of attack by the devil upon the Seed of the Woman continued all the way down to Christ's birth as a Child through Mary. It was the devil's attempt to prevent God's Plan of Salvation coming through His Son Jesus Christ.


    here again, I must disagree with you. the stars here are not angel. stars are symbolic of men hold the truth of God, or a false prophet. keep one hand on revelation 12, and the other on Matthew 2 verse 1 "Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem, 2 Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him. 3 When Herod the king had heard these things, he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him. 4 And when he had gathered all the chief priests and scribes of the people together, he demanded of them where Christ should be born. (here is the first and the second third of the stars "gathered" by king Herod, 1. the cheif priest, and 2 the scribs) 5 And they said unto him, In Bethlehem of Judaea: for thus it is written by the prophet, 6 And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Juda, art not the least among the princes of Juda: for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel. 7 Then Herod, when he had privily called the wise men, enquired of them diligently what time the star appeared. (here is the other third, the wise men are gathered) 8 And he sent them to Bethlehem, and said, Go and search diligently for the young child; and when ye have found him, bring me word again, that I may come and worship him also". here we can clearly see the third who was "GATHERED" first of the third, the chief priests, the second of the third, the scribes, and the third of the third the wise men. King Herod gathered these groups of men in trying to find out the Christ, who is the Male child, supporting scripture, Isaiah 66:5 "Hear the word of the LORD, ye that tremble at his word; Your brethren that hated you, that cast you out for my name's sake, said, Let the LORD be glorified: but he shall appear to your joy, and they shall be ashamed. 6 A voice of noise from the city, a voice from the temple, a voice of the LORD that rendereth recompence to his enemies. 7 Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child. 8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children. (this is the re-birth, see John chapter 3). 9 Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith the LORD: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb? saith thy God. (and this re-birth is of GOD)

    5 And she brought forth a Man Child, Who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her Child was caught up unto God, and to His throne.
    (KJV) Christ Jesus was born through the Seed of the Woman, i.e., Mary. Jesus was then crucified and raised by The Father, and ascended to the right hand of God's Throne, where He still is now. He is to rule with a rod of iron with His elect priests and kings in the near future "thousand years" reign of Revelation 20, which is just around the corner today.


    this is found in both the old and the new testament. when King Herod inquires when and where this child was born, they told him, scripture, Matthew 2:4 "And when he had gathered all the chief priests and scribes of the people together, he demanded of them where Christ should be born. Matthew 2:6 "And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Juda, art not the least among the princes of Juda: for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel". this was spoke by the Lord himself by the prophet Micah 5:2. and as for the time of this child birth, scripture, 7 Then Herod, when he had privily called the wise men, enquired of them diligently what time the star appeared". based on the time of the star appeared, the King could determine the child age. hence he slew all the children two years and under. that's why he's the red dragon, because of the blood on his hands. red symbolize blood. now, as for the time around the corner, "I DON'T KNOW".

    That's all... there is to those Scriptures. There is NO flesh reincarnation re-birth idea written there at all! That "Man Child" refers to Jesus of Nazareth only as The Christ, The Saviour, Immanuel God with us.

    God the Spirit was "MANIFESTED" in the flesh he made, scripture, 1 Timothy 3:16 "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory". not that God was flesh, but manifested in it. .so, no reincarnation, no re-birth, only he, (GOD) manifested in the flesh. and by God being in flesh as a "Diversity", yes he's the Christ, The Saviour, Immanuel God with us.
    be blessed.
     
  3. afaithfulone4u

    afaithfulone4u New Member

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    Who said anything about the body of Christ being born in the flesh again? The flesh man died to bring forth spiritual children for God, God is done with the flesh man, that is why fleshly Israel is not the promised seed, they MUST be born again with the exception of the 7,000 God has reserved of OT saints.

    You seem to not understand that we are his Spiritual body members such as feet, hands, eyes being BIRTHED in the image of Christ as the ONE NEW Man-Child a HOLY NATION a body of people for God does not marry individuals, but NATIONS/LANDS.

    Isa 62:4 Thou shalt no more be termed Forsaken; neither shall thy land any more be termed Desolate: but thou shalt be called Hephzi-bah, and thy land Beulah: for the LORD delighteth in thee, and thy land shall be married.
    5 For as a young man marrieth a virgin, so shall thy sons marry thee: and as the bridegroom rejoiceth over the bride, so shall thy God rejoice over thee.
    KJV

    The earth is awaiting the manifestation of the sons of God who's head is Christ, making his body male as well rather Jew or Gentile, male or female they are spiritual Jews and holy virgin males for there are no female angels for there are no reproductive organs needed in heaven. Only after the fall of man to their fleshly state were they given carnal flesh to reproduce because -part of Eve's punishment was for her to now have the children in her body and in pain. Where before God created them, Adam and took the woman out of the MAN.
    Take a look at these two different sets of verses and you SHOULD see that the man child in Isaiah 66:7 is not just one person, but are talking about the birth of the children of heavenly Jerusalem who will be birthed in Christ's image and caught up(rapture)before the pain/GT to God's throne to rule and reign on the earth with Christ the head of his body and the opening/womb/door to the heavenly hope shall be closed. Remember the saints who reign with Christ will rule with him with a rod of iron as well?
    Isa 66:6-9
    6 A voice of noise from the city, a voice from the temple, a voice of the LORD that rendereth recompence to his enemies.
    7 Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.
    8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.
    9 Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith the LORD: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb? saith thy God.
    KJV
    Rev 11:17-12:6
    17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
    18
    And (THEN) the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead(SPIRITUALLY DEAD), that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

    19 And (THEN) the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.
    12:1 And(THEN) there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
    2 And (THEN) she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
    3 And (THEN) there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
    4 And (THEN) his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
    5 And (THEN) she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
    6 And (THEN) the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
    KJV
     
  4. ENOCH2010

    ENOCH2010 New Member

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    " and she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron"

    Where in the Bible dose it say the church is going to rule with a rod of iron ? I know of the scripture that says Christ will rule with a rod of iron, but not man.
     
  5. HeRoseFromTheDead

    HeRoseFromTheDead Not So Advanced Member

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    And the one who conquers and who keeps my works until the end, I will give him authority over the nations, and “he will shepherd them with an iron rod; he will break [them] in pieces like jars made of clay,” as I also have received from my Father, and I will give him the morning star. Revelation 2:26-28
     
  6. ENOCH2010

    ENOCH2010 New Member

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    well i'll be
     
  7. afaithfulone4u

    afaithfulone4u New Member

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    Now we can begin to understand why God's Word says:
    Rev 1:3
    3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.
    KJV
     
  8. Retrobyter

    Retrobyter Well-Known Member

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    Shalom, afaithfulone4u.

    Sorry, bro', but you can only build upon a solid foundation. The phrase "at hand" means "within your grasp." It doesn't mean that the time has already come but rather that the time is POISED to come! That time has not already arrived.


    Shalom, ENOCH2010.

    Don't be duped by a bad translation of good verses. Go to the Greek first and "PROVE whether these things be so." The NIV SOUNDS good sometimes, but fails in translating the Scriptures AS THEY WERE WRITTEN! This is why there were so many pastors and evangelists who spoke out against the NIV when it first came out in 1978!

    Consider this excerpt from http://www.prca.org/pamphlets/pamphlet_61.html, Rev. Ronald Cammenga's article, "NIV or KJV?"


    As noted in this article, one should carefully consider the difference in meaning between the KJV and the NIV. Of particular importance are verses such as Romans 1:16-17:



    So, back to the passage in Revelation 2: Here's the same passage in the King James (Authorized) Version:



    Revelation 2:26-28
    26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
    27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

    28 And I will give him the morning star.
    KJV


    And, here's the Greek:


    Ho Apokalupsis 2:26-28
    26 Kai ho nikoon kai ho teeroon achri telous ta erga mou, doosoo autoo exousian epi toon ethnoon
    27 kai poimenei autous en rabdoo sideera hoos ta skeuee ta keramika suntribetai,
    28 hoos kagoo eileefa para tou Patros mou, kai doosoo autoo ton astera ton prooinon.


    The Greek New Testament

    26 Kai = 26 And
    ho = the
    nikoon = conquerer
    kai = and
    ho = the
    teeroon = guard
    achri = until
    telous = [the]-end
    ta = the
    erga = works/deeds
    mou, = of-me,
    doosoo = I-will-give
    autoo = to-him
    exousian = right/authority
    epi = over
    toon = the
    ethnoon = nations
    27 kai = 27 and
    poimenei = He-shall-rule
    autous = them
    en = in
    rabdoo = a-sceptre
    sideera = of-iron
    hoos = like/as
    ta = the
    skeuee = vessels
    ta = of-the
    keramika = potter
    suntribetai, = they-shall-be-shattered,
    28 hoos = 28 like
    kagoo (kai egoo) = and-I
    eileefa = took
    para = near
    tou = of-the
    Patros = Father
    mou, = of-me,
    kai = and
    doosoo = I-will-give
    autoo = to-him
    ton = the
    astera = star
    ton = of-the
    prooinon. = morning.

    26 And the conquerer and the guard until [the]-end the works/deeds of-me, I-will-give to-him right/authority over the nations
    27 and He-shall-rule them in a-sceptre of-iron like/as the vessels of-the potter they-shall-be-shattered,
    28 like and-I took near of-the Father of-me, and I-will-give to-him the star of-the morning.

    Verse 27 is a QUOTATION! It refers to the Father's promise to the Messiah, not the Messiah's promise to the conquerer/guard! He will be a King of kings, but HE will have the final say in all matters of judgment during the Millennium! HE holds the iron scepter!
     
  9. HeRoseFromTheDead

    HeRoseFromTheDead Not So Advanced Member

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    E2010, what RB is not telling you (because he doesn't know it) is that christ is more than Jesus. We who are his body are christ. Not THE Christ, but christ, which simply means anointed. We are members of his body who will rule and reign with him. Paul refers to this reality several times.

    RB is an expert at doing the scripture twist dance.
     
  10. afaithfulone4u

    afaithfulone4u New Member

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    The 144,000 will be a holy nation and they will be the groom who along with their HEAD which is Christ shall marry the Bride new Jerusalem and they will rule with Christ over the nations with the same Rod who is Christ whom is THE WORD OF GOD. All who God has chosen(foreknow) who are being formed into the image of the firstborn will also be as the Son
    Rom 8:29
    29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
    KJV

    Otherwise God would not have said this:
    Phil 2:5-6
    5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
    6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
    KJV

    This is not to say that we are the Almighty Himself, but a are a chip off the ole Block and have the same attributes as the Father and have been given, prepared and raised up in standards as God and sit ON the Right hand of God as His sons as kings and priests to rule over the earth.
    1 Peter 2:9
    9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
    KJV
    Rev 1:5-6
    5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
    6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
    KJV

    He has many crowns because his body members each have a head and are given a crown of life as well.

    Rev 19:12-14
    12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
    13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
    14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
    KJV
     
  11. Retrobyter

    Retrobyter Well-Known Member

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    Shalom, ChristRoseFromTheDead (and you, too, afaithfulone4u).

    Nonsense. "We who are his body are christ"?! Are you trying to usurp His authority?!!! You don't even bother to capitalize "his," giving Him the respect He deserves as the Son of God! Doesn't that mean ANYTHING to you?!!! Have you no shame? If anyone is doing "the scripture twist dance," it's YOU! The Scriptures have NEVER given us the title of "mashiach" OR "christos!" I CHALLENGE you to find me ONE Scripture verse that calls us "mashiach" or "christos!" We are said to be IN the Christ - IN the Messiah - and OF the Christ - BELONGING TO the Messiah - but NEVER is the title given to us, not collectively as a church or individually! That's HIS title alone!
    Psalm 2:1-12
    1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?
    2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying,
    3 "Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us."
    4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the LORD shall have them in derision.
    5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.
    6 "Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
    7 I will declare the decree: 'the LORD hath said unto me (singular), <<Thou (singular) art my Son; this day have I begotten thee (singular).
    8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee (singular) the heathen for thine (singular) inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy (singular) possession.
    9 Thou (singular) shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou (singular) shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.>>'
    10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.
    11 Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
    12 Kiss the Son, lest he (singular) be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his (singular) wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him (singular)."
    KJV (color-coded quotations provided for clarity)

    The closest thing you might find is that believers were called "Christians" by the unbelievers in Antioch, which means "little-Christs," but it was a DEROGATORY term, PUTTING THEM DOWN for their constant claims that Yeshua` was/is the "Christ" or the Messiah!

    That title, which ONCE belonged to many, now belongs to ONE! And He shares His power and authority with NO ONE!

    1 Corinthians 15:23-28
    23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
    24 Then cometh the end, when he (singular) shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he (singular) shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
    25 For he (singular) must reign, till he (singular) hath put all enemies under his (singular) feet.
    26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
    27 For he (singular) hath put all things under his (singular) feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him (singular), it is manifest that he (God the Father) is excepted, which did put all things under him (singular).
    28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him (singular), then shall the Son also himself (singular) be subject unto him (God the Father) that put all things under him (singular), that God may be all in all.
    KJV


    Give Him His DUE HONOR!
     
  12. HeRoseFromTheDead

    HeRoseFromTheDead Not So Advanced Member

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    ​For just as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of the body, [although they] are many, are one body, thus also Christ. For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free [persons], and all were made to drink one Spirit. 1 Corinthians 12:12-13 (LEB)

    ​For even as the body is one and has many members, yet all the members of the body being many are one body, thus also the christ [anointed]. For we all are baptized in one spirit into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or freemen, and all are made to drink into one spirit. 1 Corinthians 12:12-13 (literal translation)

    G5547 Χριστός Christos (khris-tos') n/p.
    1. (literally) Anointed
    [from G5548]

    G5548 χρίω chrio (khree'-o) v.
    1. to smear or rub with oil
    2. (specially, of divine purpose) to anoint


    Dance, RB, dance.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xbK0C9AYMd8
     
  13. afaithfulone4u

    afaithfulone4u New Member

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    Do you understand that Jacob was singular yet God made him plural when He said your name shall be ISRAEL? It is because Jacob are the children, as a whole they are a nation which is a Woman. People are children and lands are the motherlands.

    Christ is the Seed of God who died to be planted and bring forth more sons for God. The Seed is the Word of God that is planted into the soil of our hearts circumcising them to receive THE SEED/Christ/The Word of God to transform us into the image of Christ.

    John 12:24
    24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.
    KJV
    Heb 2:10-11
    10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
    11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,
    KJV
     
  14. bytheway

    bytheway New Member

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    Getting back to the topic/question the man child represents maturity, child represents humility, the one perfect man found in Ephesians 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ. Two metaphors for the body of Christ. No woman can deliver a full grown man! As our Lord said unless you become like a child you can't enter the Kingdom of God. Think spiritually, not naturally.
     
  15. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
    This is about the idea in Genesis 3 of the Seed of the Woman that Christ Jesus would be born through. This timeline at the begining of this world becomes more revealed as these Rev.12 verses go on. Then, you have to consider these subjects back to the start like in the first verse about Israel. A study in Malachi 1 about God's ordaining of Israel goes along with this, even with what Apostle Paul said in Romans 9 that before either child was born, God said He loved Jacob, but hated Esau.


    in the book of Revelation, a woman, symbolically represent a church, here the nation Israel (symbolically).

    God's Church is Christ's Church, same thing, and it now includes believers on Christ Jesus both of the Seed of the woman (Israelites), and believing Gentiles.




    3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
    This great red dragon represents the devil, Satan. These seven heads, ten horns, and seven crowns represent his kingdom of old that he first rebelled against God with. That happened PRIOR to the start of this present world. So the timeline just jumped prior to the previous verses. For those with eyes to see and ears to hear, God is giving this so as to note WHY He chose Israel before the foundation of this world, and also His Son to be born in the flesh to die on the cross to defeat the devil.


    here I must disagree with you. the red dragon is King Herod, which Satan is working through. and the reason why he is red, because of the blood he spilled in trying to kill the child Jesus the Christ.

    The subject of that red dragon includes his drawing a third of the stars (angels) in rebellion with him, and mention of a kingdom that only had 7 crowns compared with the one in Rev.13 that is to have 10 crowns. That was Satan when he first rebelled against God (see Isaiah 14; Ezek.28; Ezek.31; Job 1 & 2; Matt.25:41). Herod was not born yet then.




    4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
    This verse covers the time back when the devil (red dragon) first rebelled against God, having drawn one third of the angels of heaven with him into rebellion. Then after the colon ( :), is the start of the Seed of the Woman that Christ would be born through, with Satan's very first attempt to destroy that Seed (i.e., influencing Cain to kill his brother Abel). This kind of attack by the devil upon the Seed of the Woman continued all the way down to Christ's birth as a Child through Mary. It was the devil's attempt to prevent God's Plan of Salvation coming through His Son Jesus Christ.


    here again, I must disagree with you. the stars here are not angel. stars are symbolic of men hold the truth of God, or a false prophet. keep one hand on revelation 12, and the other on Matthew 2 verse 1 "Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem, 2 Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him. 3 When Herod the king had heard these things, he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him. 4 And when he had gathered all the chief priests and scribes of the people together, he demanded of them where Christ should be born. (here is the first and the second third of the stars "gathered" by king Herod, 1. the cheif priest, and 2 the scribs) 5 And they said unto him, In Bethlehem of Judaea: for thus it is written by the prophet, 6 And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Juda, art not the least among the princes of Juda: for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel. 7 Then Herod, when he had privily called the wise men, enquired of them diligently what time the star appeared. (here is the other third, the wise men are gathered) 8 And he sent them to Bethlehem, and said, Go and search diligently for the young child; and when ye have found him, bring me word again, that I may come and worship him also". here we can clearly see the third who was "GATHERED" first of the third, the chief priests, the second of the third, the scribes, and the third of the third the wise men. King Herod gathered these groups of men in trying to find out the Christ, who is the Male child, supporting scripture, Isaiah 66:5 "Hear the word of the LORD, ye that tremble at his word; Your brethren that hated you, that cast you out for my name's sake, said, Let the LORD be glorified: but he shall appear to your joy, and they shall be ashamed. 6 A voice of noise from the city, a voice from the temple, a voice of the LORD that rendereth recompence to his enemies. 7 Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child. 8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children. (this is the re-birth, see John chapter 3). 9 Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith the LORD: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb? saith thy God. (and this re-birth is of GOD)

    Men's doctrines today are trying to change the meaning of those "stars", saying they represent men on earth when it says "the stars of heaven". That's not going to work. Those men can believe there is this flesh existence only and stay deceived about the order in the Heavenly with angels, but that won't change what God's Word reveals about it (see Gen.19). The first part of this Rev.12:4 verse is linked with the previous 3rd verse about Satan's original rebellion against God, the time when Satan was cast to the earth. Later on in this very Rev.12 chapter, we are shown God is going to cast Satan and 'his' angels out of the Heavenly down to this earth for the end of this world. That subject starts at Rev.12:7. And that's another reason why He is giving John this earlier picture and history about Satan and his angels with their first rebellion against God. To try and apply some flesh man to all that is to totally... miss one of the main reasons for God giving this summary of events in Rev.12:1-5. And you obviously missed it in exchange for something else, that something else being doctrines of men.



    Try reading some of Terry's posts. He and others here have pushed the fabrication of Christ having to be re-born into the flesh for His future return to this earth. And I see some here with that underlying false doctrine too.
     
  16. afaithfulone4u

    afaithfulone4u New Member

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    It is the Bible that calls the man child the children of God not me. I just believe it to be truth because I take God at His Word. We are not returning to flesh and blood men of the fallen nature as Adam did.

    Yes, please heed your own words and think spiritually and not natural.. to come as little children means, not thinking you know better or more than your heavenly Father, but hanging on every Word that proceeds from His mouth as the Gospel Truth to live by. We must cast down the worlds ways of learning and seek God's Word. A child looks UP to their father in expectation that he will do everything he promises and they don't hesitate to ask questions to learn or fail to believe in him to want the very best for them.


    Gal 4:24-28
    24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

    25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

    26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

    27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.

    28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
    KJV
    Isa 54:1
    54:1 Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child: for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith the LORD.
    KJV


    For anyone who believes that the Book of Revelation that was given to John in 70 ad by the resurrected Christ himself as the Father gave to him to give John was about Jesus natural birth then why would Jesus tell John this:
    Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
    2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.
    KJV

    Rev 1:18-19
    18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
    19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;
    KJV

    John did not witness the birth of Jesus to Mary so this is clearly talking about the things that he was being shown from that point on.
     
  17. Retrobyter

    Retrobyter Well-Known Member

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    Shalom, ChristRoseFromTheDead.

    Let's just look at YOUR OWN HANDLE, "ChristRoseFromTheDead." Have YOU, as an assumed "member of that body," literally "ROSE (risen) FROM THE DEAD," yet? If you think you have, you're delusional and you ain't seen NUTHIN', yet! If you have not, then the title belongs SOLELY TO HIM, by your own admission!

    So, WHATEVER version you are using now (and you don't bother to say, although it's a little better because it is more word-for-word translated), you're still not interpreting the verse correctly. The words in Greek translated as "thus also Christ" are "houtoos kai ho Christos," meaning "in-this-way and/also the Messiah." Even if you want to think of yourself as part of the Messiah's body, He is the HEAD and HE makes the decisions! HE does the reigning and HE judges the earth! If we do ANY of that, such as "ruling and reigning with Him," it is through HIS authority and by HIS leave!
     
  18. 101G

    101G Well-Known Member

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    2 veteran, GINNOLJC

    Try reading some of Terry's posts. He and others here have pushed the fabrication of Christ having to be re-born into the flesh for His future return to this earth. And I see some here with that underlying false doctrine too.

    Christ re-born?, who said that?. Christ is the title, and the work of God in Flesh. if you misunderstood what I posted, let me make it clear.
    Isaiah 66:5 "Hear the word of the LORD, ye that tremble at his word; Your brethren that hated you, that cast you out for my name's sake, said, Let the LORD be glorified: but he shall appear to your joy, and they shall be ashamed. 6 A voice of noise from the city, a voice from the temple, a voice of the LORD that rendereth recompence to his enemies. 7 Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child. 8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children. (this is the re-birth, see John chapter 3). 9 Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith the LORD: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb? saith thy God. (and this re-birth is of GOD)

    she brought forth her children. (this is the re-birth, see John chapter 3). this re-birth is of man, not the Christ.
    9 Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith the LORD: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb? saith thy God. (and this re-birth is of GOD). this is the cause of "OUR" the children, "re-birth". this re-birth is of God, the Holy Spirit, his work. now if this is false doctrine, we all better throw away our bibles.

    and I stand by everything I have posted.
     
  19. ENOCH2010

    ENOCH2010 New Member

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    I believe I'll let the Lord do the ruling and reigning with the rod of iron, while I just try to be obedient.
     
  20. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/18066-is-the-travailing-woman-which-gives-birth-to-a-man-child-in-revelation-12/

    See Terry's post on that above thread link.


    Others here have declared to me that for one to manifest upon this earth, they must be in the flesh. I wasn't addressing that to you 101G. Of course that idea that Christ must be re-born in the flesh again to appear a second time on this earth in our near future is not... written in God's Word. My response of that in my previous post was to afaithfulone4u who asked about that idea.

    The Isaiah 66 Scripture is about Zion and God's ordaining for Christ to come, and then His Plan of Salvation being offerred to all who would believe on Jesus of Nazareth as The Christ. It's actually covering points that go back to before the foundations of this present world, and then thereafter.
     
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