Man's Works Burned Off the Earth at Jesus' Coming

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ScottA

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But I do understand God's Word, because one must have ears to 'hear' firstly. And secondly one must be able to stick to the subject. The subject of this thread is about the 2 Peter 3:10 event of man's works burned off this earth on the "day of the Lord", which is the day of Jesus' future coming.


You're confused. Jesus often used the idea of His time not yet having come when pointing to His being delivered up to be crucified (Matthew 26:18). So you cannot just bring in the idea of any day or time and try to point that to His coming return, for that's just being silly with not even understanding the simplicity of The Bible in English.


Nor does that make sense because it does not even agree with the simplicity in English of the Rev.16:15 verse where Jesus said He comes "as a thief". You might as well call the English you speak something else, because you are even reading the English Scripture as English.


Jesus said He comes "as a thief", and the phrase Paul and Peter used about the "day of the Lord" coming "as a thief in the night" is the subject Jesus was pointing to, simply because in His Olivet discourse He used the idea of the thief breaking in to represent the 'day' of His FUTURE coming. So Apostles Paul and Peter were actually repeating that "as a thief" idea FROM LORD JESUS' teaching.


That reveals you are on a serious FALSE DOCTRINE OF MEN, what is called 'Full Preterism'. That false doctrine does NOT believe in a 'literal' return of Lord Jesus Christ back to this earth, when God's Word plainly and clearly says He will return in like manner how He ascended into Heaven. So it doesn't matter how much you TRY to eliminate Jesus' body, He STILL has the image of man, because that is GOD's Own Image per Genesis 1:26-27. So whether one believes He will return in a spirit body form, or a flesh form, no matter, because the Scriptures shows a LITERAL return back to this earth how He went into Heaven. And that is HOW we may expect His future return to happen. Anything else is a LIE from the devil.

I admonish you to repent to Christ Jesus of following such a false doctrine from men as Full Preterism. And the time of His future coming is very, very short today.
You brought up the day of the Lord, and now you deny that the day that defines Him as Savior of the world, is that day.

And again you finish with accusations. As I have said, it is enough, this is therefore how you shall be known.
 
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rwb

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That statement is absolutely crazy! The "day of the Lord" HAS NOT COME YET TODAY.

You show you don't really understand about the TWO advents (comings) of Lord Jesus Christ.

1st coming -- born of woman, meek as a lamb to be slain, died on the cross, The Father raising Him from the dead, having ascended to Heaven in a cloud (PAST HISTORY)
2nd coming -- return to this earth in a cloud, wielding a sword to subdue all His enemies, and rule all nations with "a rod of iron". (STILL FUTURE)

Prove the Day of the Lord has not come from the Word of God Davy! Do you deny the promised Messiah came exactly as the prophets foretell He would?
 
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Davy

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You brought up the day of the Lord, and now you deny that the day that defines Him as Savior of the world, is that day.

And again you finish with accusations. As I have said, it is enough, this is therefore how you shall be known.
Lord Jesus Christ will return in like manner as He ascended to Heaven, as per Acts 1. And per Zechariah 14 is revealed His FUTURE RETURN back to this earth, to the SAME spot on earth where He ascended, per Acts 1.

And on THAT day, is when man's works are burned off this earth per Apostle Peter in 2 Peter 3:10, on the "day of the Lord"! Too bad you don't like that as written, but that is GOD TALKING through His prophet Zechariah, and His Apostle Peter, not me...

2 Thess 1:7-10
7
And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of His power;
10 When He shall come to be glorified in His saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
KJV


Zech 14:1-5
14 Behold,
the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

2
For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when He fought in the day of battle.

4
And His feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: a
nd the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with Thee.
KJV
 

ScottA

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That statement is absolutely crazy! The "day of the Lord" HAS NOT COME YET TODAY.

You show you don't really understand about the TWO advents (comings) of Lord Jesus Christ.

1st coming -- born of woman, meek as a lamb to be slain, died on the cross, The Father raising Him from the dead, having ascended to Heaven in a cloud (PAST HISTORY)
2nd coming -- return to this earth in a cloud, wielding a sword to subdue all His enemies, and rule all nations with "a rod of iron". (STILL FUTURE)
Davy,

It is you who do not understand all that is written, that "the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual." That Jesus' foretelling of the days being "as the days of Noah" began at Pentecost with the outpouring of the spirit of God--"afterward the spiritual."

There, now I have held out a lifeline.
 

Davy

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Prove the Day of the Lord has not come from the Word of God Davy! Do you deny the promised Messiah came exactly as the prophets foretell He would?
Brethren in Christ Jesus:
I have ALREADY SHOWN FROM GOD'S WRITTEN WORD, that the "day of the Lord" which Apostles Paul and Peter stated is about CHRIST'S FUTURE COMING ON THE FUTURE DAY OF THE LORD TO END THIS PRESENT WORLD!

One can easily read what those Apostles said in 1 Thessalonians 5, and in 2 Peter 3.

And then to find out WHO AND WHERE they got that idea of the "day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night", all one need do is READ what Jesus taught in Matthew 24 about the 'thief'.

What rwb and ScottA both are trying to do is to present FALSE TEACHING AGAINST GOD'S written WORD about Apostle Paul's, and Apostle Peter's, and Lord Jesus' teaching about the day of His FUTURE COMING on the "day of the Lord".
 

Davy

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Davy,

It is you who do not understand all that is written, that "the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual." That Jesus' foretelling of the days being "as the days of Noah" began at Pentecost with the outpouring of the spirit of God--"afterward the spiritual."

There, now I have held out a lifeline.
STILL trying to scoot around the "day of the Lord" happening on the day of Christ's future return, I see.
 

rwb

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Brethren in Christ Jesus:
I have ALREADY SHOWN FROM GOD'S WRITTEN WORD, that the "day of the Lord" which Apostles Paul and Peter stated is about CHRIST'S FUTURE COMING ON THE FUTURE DAY OF THE LORD TO END THIS PRESENT WORLD!

One can easily read what those Apostles said in 1 Thessalonians 5, and in 2 Peter 3.

And then to find out WHO AND WHERE they got that idea of the "day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night", all one need do is READ what Jesus taught in Matthew 24 about the 'thief'.

What rwb and ScottA both are trying to do is to present FALSE TEACHING AGAINST GOD'S written WORD about Apostle Paul's, and Apostle Peter's, and Lord Jesus' teaching about the day of His FUTURE COMING on the "day of the Lord".

Davy, the Day of the Lord that is coming that the New Testament speaks of is ONE day. How do the prophets of Old foretell the Day of the Lord would come? Do they foretell the Day of the Lord coming would be fulfilled in ONE day, or do they write of things that shall come to pass when the Day of the Lord came during these "last days"?
 

Randy Kluth

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Does that mean you believe the doctrine of Amillennialism, that the wicked are destroyed on the day of Christ's future coming, i.e., the "day of the Lord"?


What I understand from God's Word is this...

1st death = death of our flesh body. This happens only in this present world.

2nd death = death of one's spirit with soul only, cast into the "lake of fire" after... Christ's future "thousand years" reign over all nations with His elect Church.

That 2nd death is not about death of one's flesh like you have pointed to. It is about death of one's spirit and soul. It is the same death that Satan and his angels go into, the death of their spirit & soul.

The "spiritual body" that Paul taught is our spirit part. We have it when God created us. Our soul is attached to our spirit body. Our spiritual body is simply the "image of the heavenly". If you are in Heaven, that is the type body you manifest with, a Heavenly image outward likeness. Our soul is our person, what makes us individuals. Even the wicked have a spirit body. It is our spirit body that is resurrected, not our flesh. Our soul is always attached to our spirit body. But our spirit with soul can... be separated from our flesh. Ecclesiastes 12:5-7 teaches there is something called a "silver cord" that keeps our spirit (with soul) attached to our flesh body while alive on earth; and at flesh death that silver cord is separated, and then our flesh goes back to the earth where it came from, and our spirit (with soul) goes back to God (meaning to the Heavenly realm).
I've been reading some of your other posts, and though I believe they represent some serious study I wonder if you've learned about the love of Christ, which is preeminent? Without love, teaching doctrine will fall on deaf ears for many.

Love is not just truth, but more, it is a Spirit. This is important for me to tell you this because there is a lot I agree with you on, but I fear you will be less effective if like the Ephesians in Rev 2 your candle goes out!

Brother, we agree on a great many things. I just don't agree with the attitude that differences of opinion constitute heresy, necessarily. I'm Postrib, Premil, and non-Preterist, though a number have called me a Preterist for thinking that much of the Olivet Discourse was fulfilled in history.

I do not, however, believe the book of Revelation has been fulfilled in history. I believe Antichrist will lead a final rebellion against God, which people across the world will embrace. The pull is towards the flesh of man, which desires its own way, to live autonomously and independent of God.

The kind of unity brought about by Antichrist will be a unity of this independent flesh, like the Tower of Babel. It will not be like Christian unity, which is based not on accommodation but on grace. The world's idea of unity requires force--"to the strong go the spoils."

The kind of unity Antichrist will bring is bound to end in division, because force is provocative, which is why I don't believe in trying to jam doctrine down the throat of others. I try to let the Spirit convict them, though I often fail and resort to force myself. That "force" for me is also "attitude." I think that by shaming someone they will accept my word--something bound to fail.

As far as "death" goes, we agree on that too. The 1st death is our mortal death as human beings. The 2nd death is our eternal judgment.

But "spirit bodies" is something else--something that I'm not really clear on. My opinion is that "spirit body" does not mean a ghostly form without substance. Rather, it is a physical body re-made after the spirituality of Christ, which indicates immortality and sinlessness. It is still a physical body.

That is, spiritual body and physical body are not opposites. A physical body can be made after the spirituality of Christ and thus become both a physical and a spiritual body. It's just that in the current age, a physical body is known to be sinful, fragile, and mortal, whereas the spiritual body we are promised will be immortal, sinless, and eternal.

I agree that both the righteous and the wicked receive new bodies in the last resurrection. We are equipped respectively for our fate.

I do not believe God roasts people alive in a fire hour after hour after hour for all eternity. Nobody could be so cruel!! We just tend to be over-literal in reading about the everlasting fire of punishment, which in my mind, simply means that garbage is destroyed from paradise forever.

When you throw something in a fire, it is an *eternal* banishment from physical presence in the current world. It is, as such, an "eternal fire," not that people burn in that fire forever, but that the fire removes them forever.

So the wicked are equipped with a body to serve in Outer Darkness, wherever that is? It is simply outside of Paradise, or outside of the New Earth. They won't be tortured, but they will be anguished that they live outside of the presence of God, where there alone is eternal joy.

Finally, I do agree that bad doctrine can be destructive. Good doctrine is positive and edifies, and provides guidance to avoid pitfalls.

By contrast, errors, naïve or not, miss those helps, and by contrast steers one along dangerous paths. I just don't call every disagreement a matter of "heresy." I hope you understand? I want you to be effective.

Rev 2.4 Yet I hold this against you: You have forsaken the love you had at first. 5 Consider how far you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place.

Please don't think I'm preaching down to you. I have a lot of trouble remaining in "love" myself, as I get provoked by the nastiness we often see on debate forums. We need to remind one another of what we already know.
 

Timtofly

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As far as I can tell, the Day of the Lord in the context of eschatology means that day in which Christ's Kingdom is eternally established. So obviously, that "Day" will continue on forever. I don't see how 2 Pet 3 can *not* be the Day of the Lord?
Because Peter does define a thousand years as a day with the Lord. The Day is not forever. The reign of Christ is forever. There is a difference. A day or 1,000 years has a starting point and an ending point. The reign of Christ does not. The day starts when those beheaded start to reign with Christ, but Christ had already been reigning. Time and creation end when Jesus hands it all back to God. The reign of Christ still goes on. The eternal reign is not defined by finite physical creation.

It is like a train that travels across America, and some one who gets on in Cleavland Ohio and off in Chicago, does not ride the entire route. Their time only existed when they got on, and stopped when they got off.

Being eternally established is not in reference to the physical. Christ kingdom was established before Genesis 1:1. The earth stopped being part of the kingdom when Adam disobeyed God. The Second Coming is just getting earth back on track into that eternal kingdom. But when current creation is handed back to God, creation itself is finite with an end, not the eternal kingdom.

The train across America is the eternal kingdom even though the train is obviously physical with defined ends, but disregard a finite train. The man getting on at Cleveland and off at Chicago is the Day of the Lord. That is the time the man spent with the Lord (on the train). The beginning and end point relates to the man, not to the eternal kingdom. The beginning and end relates to creation itself, not the eternal kingdom of God.

The next creation in Revelation 21 is different than Genesis 1.

"And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good."

"And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea."

The first difference is the lack of water.

The next is the New Jerusalem. A 1200 mile cube. That is supposed to be flat on the earth.
 

Randy Kluth

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Because Peter does define a thousand years as a day with the Lord. The Day is not forever. The reign of Christ is forever. There is a difference. A day or 1,000 years has a starting point and an ending point. The reign of Christ does not. The day starts when those beheaded start to reign with Christ, but Christ had already been reigning. Time and creation end when Jesus hands it all back to God. The reign of Christ still goes on. The eternal reign is not defined by finite physical creation.

It is like a train that travels across America, and some one who gets on in Cleavland Ohio and off in Chicago, does not ride the entire route. Their time only existed when they got on, and stopped when they got off.

Being eternally established is not in reference to the physical. Christ kingdom was established before Genesis 1:1. The earth stopped being part of the kingdom when Adam disobeyed God. The Second Coming is just getting earth back on track into that eternal kingdom. But when current creation is handed back to God, creation itself is finite with an end, not the eternal kingdom.

The train across America is the eternal kingdom even though the train is obviously physical with defined ends, but disregard a finite train. The man getting on at Cleveland and off at Chicago is the Day of the Lord. That is the time the man spent with the Lord (on the train). The beginning and end point relates to the man, not to the eternal kingdom. The beginning and end relates to creation itself, not the eternal kingdom of God.

The next creation in Revelation 21 is different than Genesis 1.

"And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good."

"And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea."

The first difference is the lack of water.

The next is the New Jerusalem. A 1200 mile cube. That is supposed to be flat on the earth.
I don't see the New Jerusalem as flat at all. A cube is not "flat." Or am I misunderstanding you?

I get what you're trying to say. You're over-doing the explanation--I got it right away. You're saying the Reign of God is eternal, from eternity to eternity, a continuous line. On the other hand, the Day of the Lord, which you equate with the Millennium, is a mere segment on that line, a finite amount of time in which the martyrs reign. At least that's what I'm getting.

The reason I'm not on that train is because the Millennial Reign is the reign not just of martyrs but of the whole immortalized Church--at least those qualified to reign. And the Millennial Era leads into the Eternal Kingdom of God, which essentially makes the reign that begins at the beginning of the Millennium eternal.

The saying "a day is as a thousand years" is a simile, and not defining what the day of the Lord is. It is not defining the length of the day of the Lord as a thousand years. Rather, it is defining what the Day of the Lord is "like." It appears to continue indefinitely--not just a thousand years but indefinitely.

That doesn't mean I reject a literal Millennium. I accept that. I just don't believe that the saying "a day is as a thousand years" is defining the length of the Millennium. It is using a saying to explain how the Day of the Lord can last not just a thousand years but for endless days, as well.
 

Davy

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I've been reading some of your other posts, and though I believe they represent some serious study I wonder if you've learned about the love of Christ, which is preeminent? Without love, teaching doctrine will fall on deaf ears for many.

Love is not just truth, but more, it is a Spirit. This is important for me to tell you this because there is a lot I agree with you on, but I fear you will be less effective if like the Ephesians in Rev 2 your candle goes out!
My gift is understanding in much of God's Word, and teaching it to those given it that are supposed to know. On any Church service one can go find 'love' teachings, and often times those teachings go way... outside of the actual Bible Scripture. There are many different types of 'love', and it is not always about a caress. So one should not judge my delivery, but judge the message, is it The Word of God, or not?

Now that being said, what should be the main purpose of the Christian for these present times we are in today? Well, that depends upon the particular 'gift' by the Holy Spirit. My gift is not as a minister, going around shaking hands and caressing the brethren, and saying how nice one looks or dresses. Others are called to preach The Gospel as an evangelist, and that's pretty much all they do. I can preach The Gospel also, but that is not my calling. All Christians should be able to preach The Gospel to those who have yet to hear. But we do not all have that same calling.

So if some have a problem with the idea of 'rebuke' of those who fall into error, then they might as well throw away much of The New Testament, because Lord Jesus and His Apostles were very good at casting out rebuke when it was justified. I prefer to follow the example of Mennonite service that I saw once, the preacher actually calling out each person in the congregation about the sin they were caught doing. Apostle Paul actually recommended doing that in the congregation (1 Timothy 5:20). How many congregations still do that today? Is doing that NOT love of the brethren? Yes, it is, but just not the hippie lovey-dovey false type of love show.
 

Randy Kluth

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My gift is understanding in much of God's Word, and teaching it to those given it that are supposed to know. On any Church service one can go find 'love' teachings, and often times those teachings go way... outside of the actual Bible Scripture. There are many different types of 'love', and it is not always about a caress. So one should not judge my delivery, but judge the message, is it The Word of God, or not?

Now that being said, what should be the main purpose of the Christian for these present times we are in today? Well, that depends upon the particular 'gift' by the Holy Spirit. My gift is not as a minister, going around shaking hands and caressing the brethren, and saying how nice one looks or dresses. Others are called to preach The Gospel as an evangelist, and that's pretty much all they do. I can preach The Gospel also, but that is not my calling. All Christians should be able to preach The Gospel to those who have yet to hear. But we do not all have that same calling.

So if some have a problem with the idea of 'rebuke' of those who fall into error, then they might as well throw away much of The New Testament, because Lord Jesus and His Apostles were very good at casting out rebuke when it was justified. I prefer to follow the example of Mennonite service that I saw once, the preacher actually calling out each person in the congregation about the sin they were caught doing. Apostle Paul actually recommended doing that in the congregation (1 Timothy 5:20). How many congregations still do that today? Is doing that NOT love of the brethren? Yes, it is, but just not the hippie lovey-dovey false type of love show.
I'm not remotely the kind of syrupy sentimental kind of "love bird" you imply I am! As I said, "love" is a Spirit. God is love. If you don't show the fruit, don't tell me you're delivering "truth," because truth without love is a lie. If you speak truth without a sense of care for the person you're "ministering" to, then it isn't love.

I had a teacher many years ago, an old single lady with a tremendous gift for teaching the Scriptures. We asked her how people could know if a person was a genuine prophet? How could people in the OT know when a prophet is speaking to them or not?

Her answer was very wise, as usual. She said that if a prophet bringing a word of judgment doesn't weep over the people being judged, then he isn't a true prophet. You know in your heart whether you are speaking with the right spirit. I'll leave you to it--I've said my peace.
 
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Davy

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I'm not remotely the kind of syrupy sentimental kind of "love bird" you imply I am! As I said, "love" is a Spirit. God is love. If you don't show the fruit, don't tell me you're delivering "truth," because truth without love is a lie. If you speak truth without a sense of care for the person you're "ministering" to, then it isn't love.

I had a teacher many years ago, an old single lady with a tremendous gift for teaching the Scriptures. We asked her how people could know if a person was a genuine prophet? How could people in the OT know when a prophet is speaking to them or not?

Her answer was very wise, as usual. She said that if a prophet bringing a word of judgment doesn't weep over the people being judged, then he isn't a true prophet. You know in your heart whether you are speaking with the right spirit. I'll leave you to it--I've said my peace.
I'm not implying you are anything. You actually have not impressed me much with your Bible teaching.

If I don't show WHO'S FRUIT?

What kind of question is that to ask? What it sounds like is if those who don't show YOUR PERSONAL KIND OF FRUIT, then you have a problem with them. Now if you try to say I'm not following God's Word, and that's your assumption with 'fruit', then you have not proven that at all, but have just made an accusation. God's Word does NOT demand that we preach lovey-dovey secularists messages.

And WHO ARE YOU TO SAY I'M NOT DELIVERING A MESSAGE OUT OF LOVE??? You actually sound full of yourself with those kind of vain statements!

What you have shown me with your statements is that just because you cannot agree with what I am teaching from God's Word as written, you DON'T LIKE IT. Too bad, is all I can say. Weep on that if you want.
 

Davy

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I do not, however, believe the book of Revelation has been fulfilled in history. I believe Antichrist will lead a final rebellion against God, which people across the world will embrace. The pull is towards the flesh of man, which desires its own way, to live autonomously and independent of God.
I am Post-trib and Pre-mill also. And I believe there will be a final Antichrist for the end also. But I don't agree with some of your 'fleshy' thinking. The 'pull' as you say, is actually about how God is going to use Satan as a punishing rod upon the rebellious when Satan comes to earth for the end in plain sight to play Messiah in Jerusalem, fooling the whole world, except Christ's faithful Church. If one does not realize that Antichrist will be Satan himself here on earth, in person, then they are blinded, because that is pointed out in God's written Word, and fleshy thinking will get in the way of understanding it. So there's some 'love' for you brother; can you handle it?

The kind of unity brought about by Antichrist will be a unity of this independent flesh, like the Tower of Babel. It will not be like Christian unity, which is based not on accommodation but on grace. The world's idea of unity requires force--"to the strong go the spoils."
No it won't be exactly like those past times, because the previous histories of those who tried to setup world kingdoms and played God did not accompany the great signs, wonders, and miracles that we are shown the coming false-Messiah will work to deceive the whole world at the end. Revelation 13 tells us the whole world will worship the "dragon". Who is the "dragon"?

The kind of unity Antichrist will bring is bound to end in division, because force is provocative, which is why I don't believe in trying to jam doctrine down the throat of others. I try to let the Spirit convict them, though I often fail and resort to force myself. That "force" for me is also "attitude." I think that by shaming someone they will accept my word--something bound to fail.
That is still a thinking with your flesh, wrongly thinking the coming false-Messiah is going to be like a pagan literally standing on a tower mocking God in public. What you're not getting is how God's Word is showing how that coming false one is going to 'play' God, put himself in place of God using the power of signs and miracles, and creating world peace, and making craft to prosper. These are the actual signs the Book of Daniel and Jesus in His Olivet discourse gives, as also does Christ's Book of Revelation. Apostle Paul even says that false one will exalt himself over all that is 'called'... God, or that is worshiped. How will he do that? by playing the bad dude? No way.

What I'm trying to say, which is what God's Word is actually revealing about the coming final Antichrist at the end of this world is, that it will all about DECEPTION, not war, not an open mocking of Christ, etc. The deceived, which will be all the world, except Christ's elect, will see that false one literally... as GOD having come. That is what Paul's message about that false one exalting himself above all that 'called' God, or that is worshiped, means. That covers ALL known religions of this world. That false one is going fulfill all... faiths, not just the role of the Jewish Messiah.

As far as "death" goes, we agree on that too. The 1st death is our mortal death as human beings. The 2nd death is our eternal judgment.

But "spirit bodies" is something else--something that I'm not really clear on. My opinion is that "spirit body" does not mean a ghostly form without substance. Rather, it is a physical body re-made after the spirituality of Christ, which indicates immortality and sinlessness. It is still a physical body.
Well, if you believe Ecclesiastes 12:5-7, then you should understand that our spirit is one operation, and our flesh is another. Furthermore, if you understood Genesis 18 & 19 about the angels that Abraham and Lot prepared food for, then you should have some understanding that the angelic body (a body of spirit) is able to live upon this earth, and eat man's food. Also, God's Word shows that we can eat the angel's food, manna. So is that angelic body a ghost body? No, the ghost idea is from Hollywood movie conditioning. There simply are two separate realms of existence per God's Word. If one is in the Heavenly, then they are in a spirit body. If here on earth born through woman, then their spirit is housed in a flesh body, which Paul clearly taught also in 2 Cor.5.

That is, spiritual body and physical body are not opposites. A physical body can be made after the spirituality of Christ and thus become both a physical and a spiritual body. It's just that in the current age, a physical body is known to be sinful, fragile, and mortal, whereas the spiritual body we are promised will be immortal, sinless, and eternal.
That is not what God's Word teaches. Nor can we compare exactly our flesh body with Christ's, because His flesh was transfigured to the Heavenly image, having been made "a quickening spirit" per Paul. Ours won't be. We simply put off our flesh when we die, with our spirit going back to God. And our soul is attached to that spirit body that goes back to God. That is why Jesus preached The Gospel to the "spirits in prison" that had died back to the flood Peter said, so they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit (1 Peter 4).

I agree that both the righteous and the wicked receive new bodies in the last resurrection. We are equipped respectively for our fate.
Not new bodies, which wrongly suggests a new flesh body, which would actually be the theory of reincarnation. It happens like Jesus showed in Luke 16 with Lazarus and the rich man. Our flesh is buried and we go to one side or the other in Paradise.

I do not believe God roasts people alive in a fire hour after hour after hour for all eternity. Nobody could be so cruel!! We just tend to be over-literal in reading about the everlasting fire of punishment, which in my mind, simply means that garbage is destroyed from paradise forever.
I agree, so does Psalms 37.

So the wicked are equipped with a body to serve in Outer Darkness, wherever that is? It is simply outside of Paradise, or outside of the New Earth. They won't be tortured, but they will be anguished that they live outside of the presence of God, where there alone is eternal joy.
Scripture reveals the 'outer darkness' Jesus mentioned is outside the gates of the holy city, like Revelation 22:14-15, where the wicked will be in a place of separation on earth. Right now, in the heavenly dimension, we go to Paradise. One side in Paradise is where hell is, the other side represents Abraham and those in Christ. Jesus told the malefactor crucified with Him which believed on Him, that he would be with Him that day in Paradise.

Finally, I do agree that bad doctrine can be destructive. Good doctrine is positive and edifies, and provides guidance to avoid pitfalls.

By contrast, errors, naïve or not, miss those helps, and by contrast steers one along dangerous paths. I just don't call every disagreement a matter of "heresy." I hope you understand? I want you to be effective.
There's a difference between someone who blatantly disregards a Scripture as written though. Those are without excuse, and I'm not about to let up on those. Likewise, those who try to push false ideas that they learned from their preacher is most often a situation where they FAILED to check their preacher out in God's written Word for their self. They allow the preacher to deceive them by appearances, worldly credentials, etc., most often. Those have... to be told if they are ever going to get understanding in God's Word for themselves asking God's help. So yes, it is proper to challenge those, and try to drive them into God's Word for themselves.

Rev 2.4 Yet I hold this against you: You have forsaken the love you had at first. 5 Consider how far you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place.

Please don't think I'm preaching down to you. I have a lot of trouble remaining in "love" myself, as I get provoked by the nastiness we often see on debate forums. We need to remind one another of what we already know.
I don't have any problem remaining in 'love'. Like I've said before, there's different kinds of love. I'm an old military man, been all over the world, so I well know how the other half lives. So when it's time for adult babies to wake up, it's time to help get em' off the milk of God's Word, and into the 'strong meat' of His Word.

If I were pastor over a Church, I'd do my best to make the adults always bring their Bible, and a notepad and pencil to take notes. I'd show them how to properly study their Bible, and use some easy Bible study tools. Might not be a mega-Church because of that kind of discipline, but one thing is for sure, they will 'know' and 'understand' more of God's written Word, and able to teach others, than the majority of Churches out there. And if some came in and thought that discipline is too much and left, then that just shows me they are really not that interested in understanding our Heavenly Father's Message of His Word in the first place.
 
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Davy

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I had a teacher many years ago, an old single lady with a tremendous gift for teaching the Scriptures. We asked her how people could know if a person was a genuine prophet? How could people in the OT know when a prophet is speaking to them or not?
I would never claim to be a prophet sent from God. He has already given us His prophets by His Word. So just because one is given to understand and teach His Word given through His prophets, that does not make them a prophet.

Her answer was very wise, as usual. She said that if a prophet bringing a word of judgment doesn't weep over the people being judged, then he isn't a true prophet. You know in your heart whether you are speaking with the right spirit. I'll leave you to it--I've said my peace.
Sorry, but that sounds kind of silly, because I don't weep over the deceived, but instead have a kind of sour ache in my belly instead. So I'll leave you with this...

Rev 10:9-10
9 And I went unto the angel, and said unto him, "Give me the little book." And he said unto me, "Take it, and eat it up; and it shall make thy belly bitter, but it shall be in thy mouth sweet as honey."

10 And I took the little book out of the angel's hand, and ate it up; and it was in my mouth sweet as honey: and as soon as I had eaten it, my belly was bitter.
KJV
 

Randy Kluth

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I am Post-trib and Pre-mill also. And I believe there will be a final Antichrist for the end also. But I don't agree with some of your 'fleshy' thinking. The 'pull' as you say, is actually about how God is going to use Satan as a punishing rod upon the rebellious when Satan comes to earth for the end in plain sight to play Messiah in Jerusalem, fooling the whole world, except Christ's faithful Church. If one does not realize that Antichrist will be Satan himself here on earth, in person, then they are blinded, because that is pointed out in God's written Word, and fleshy thinking will get in the way of understanding it. So there's some 'love' for you brother; can you handle it?
I don't believe there is much difference in saying the Antichrist is completely empowered by Satan and saying the Antichrist *is* Satan. What's the point? Why is that so important?

I don't believe Antichrist *is* Satan because Satan is, I believe, an angel. And although they may appear as humans, angels *aren't* humans. And Antichrist is, I believe, a human. I have no idea why your argument that Antichrist *is* Satan is so important for you?
No it won't be exactly like those past times, because the previous histories of those who tried to setup world kingdoms and played God did not accompany the great signs, wonders, and miracles that we are shown the coming false-Messiah will work to deceive the whole world at the end. Revelation 13 tells us the whole world will worship the "dragon". Who is the "dragon"?
It depends on how you define "signs and wonders?" The Egyptian magicians performed "signs," did they not? Maybe the "signs" delivered by the false prophets and false Christs of Jesus' time simply appeared to show some initial victories, which was really a premature victory. In the end the Romans defeated these "false Jews."
That is still a thinking with your flesh, wrongly thinking the coming false-Messiah is going to be like a pagan literally standing on a tower mocking God in public. What you're not getting is how God's Word is showing how that coming false one is going to 'play' God, put himself in place of God using the power of signs and miracles, and creating world peace, and making craft to prosper. These are the actual signs the Book of Daniel and Jesus in His Olivet discourse gives, as also does Christ's Book of Revelation. Apostle Paul even says that false one will exalt himself over all that is 'called'... God, or that is worshiped. How will he do that? by playing the bad dude? No way.
When did I deny any of those things? The most obvious thing about Antichrist, from Dan 7, is that he will boast against God, indicating he believes he expresses Deity. Things will go his way. He will seem to expose sainthood as false. He will get his own way for a time, and even change God's orthodoxy. Sitting in the temple seat is the equivalent of saying, he will proclaim himself to have divine authority.

I doubt Paul was speaking of a literal temple, but rather, was using it in the metaphorical sense. Nobody made his seat of rule within the temple! When Antiochus 4 committed sacrilege in the temple, he did not rule from there!
What I'm trying to say, which is what God's Word is actually revealing about the coming final Antichrist at the end of this world is, that it will all about DECEPTION, not war, not an open mocking of Christ, etc. The deceived, which will be all the world, except Christ's elect, will see that false one literally... as GOD having come. That is what Paul's message about that false one exalting himself above all that 'called' God, or that is worshiped, means. That covers ALL known religions of this world. That false one is going fulfill all... faiths, not just the role of the Jewish Messiah.
I think the Bible is here using hyperbole, expressing a general truth in grandiose terms. To have the "whole world" worship the Antichrist is not to say that every political system will subscribe to the Beast system. Clearly, the Antichrist controls only 10 European states.

Rather, the thought is that across the entire globe people in every nation privately agree with rebellion against God's control over their lives. They will become enamored with one who so blatantly promotes what they believe in their heart and want.
Well, if you believe Ecclesiastes 12:5-7, then you should understand that our spirit is one operation, and our flesh is another. Furthermore, if you understood Genesis 18 & 19 about the angels that Abraham and Lot prepared food for, then you should have some understanding that the angelic body (a body of spirit) is able to live upon this earth, and eat man's food. Also, God's Word shows that we can eat the angel's food, manna. So is that angelic body a ghost body? No, the ghost idea is from Hollywood movie conditioning. There simply are two separate realms of existence per God's Word. If one is in the Heavenly, then they are in a spirit body. If here on earth born through woman, then their spirit is housed in a flesh body, which Paul clearly taught also in 2 Cor.5.
Again, you are speaking of differences without a distinction. An angel able to appear as a man and eat as a man still is not a man--he is an angel. So the idea that Satan can appear as a man is legitimate, in my thinking. But the idea that he *is* Antichrist is not, in my opinion. Antichrist is in fact a man, as I understand all of the Scriptures describing him.

Again, is this the hill to kill someone over, theologically? No, of course not! Your opinion is welcome, but not your attitude. You want to condemn anybody who disagrees with you--even over ridiculously small issues. I may agree with you or come close to your positions on 75% of what you believe. But on the other 25% you claim either that God's love does not matter or is to be redefined so that you can try to bully me into agreeing with you. That's not Christian, brother. Show some respect, and give place for others to make their own decisions. Learn to disagree agreeably.

You say you're a military man. I agree. But the Scriptures say you must become like a child to enter into God's Kingdom. You decide.

I'm not saying we need to become "childish." I'm saying we need to bow humbly before God's majesty, and learn to submit to love--something "old military men" might find difficult doing?
 

Randy Kluth

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I would never claim to be a prophet sent from God. He has already given us His prophets by His Word. So just because one is given to understand and teach His Word given through His prophets, that does not make them a prophet.
My point was not to claim you are a prophet, but to show how a prophet operates within his heart. He has the love of God and is obeying God out of love--not out of personal animosity towards those who are rebelling against God.

Yes, we can share with God some emotional spite against those who rebel because often they are doing despicable things, committing crimes against humanity, doing deplorable things against their fellow man. However, the moment we go beyond God's anger to depicting our own personal angry, we lose the Spirit. We lose all sense of God's wrath when we pivot away from Him to our own personal battles.
Sorry, but that sounds kind of silly, because I don't weep over the deceived, but instead have a kind of sour ache in my belly instead. So I'll leave you with this...
Yea, you can only weep when you've been dealt with successfully by God. When you come to the end of yourself, you weep with God and laugh with God. It is all about conformity with Christ. And Christ wept over Jerusalem even as he called for judgment against it.
 

Timtofly

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I don't see the New Jerusalem as flat at all. A cube is not "flat." Or am I misunderstanding you?

I get what you're trying to say. You're over-doing the explanation--I got it right away. You're saying the Reign of God is eternal, from eternity to eternity, a continuous line. On the other hand, the Day of the Lord, which you equate with the Millennium, is a mere segment on that line, a finite amount of time in which the martyrs reign. At least that's what I'm getting.

The reason I'm not on that train is because the Millennial Reign is the reign not just of martyrs but of the whole immortalized Church--at least those qualified to reign. And the Millennial Era leads into the Eternal Kingdom of God, which essentially makes the reign that begins at the beginning of the Millennium eternal.

The saying "a day is as a thousand years" is a simile, and not defining what the day of the Lord is. It is not defining the length of the day of the Lord as a thousand years. Rather, it is defining what the Day of the Lord is "like." It appears to continue indefinitely--not just a thousand years but indefinitely.

That doesn't mean I reject a literal Millennium. I accept that. I just don't believe that the saying "a day is as a thousand years" is defining the length of the Millennium. It is using a saying to explain how the Day of the Lord can last not just a thousand years but for endless days, as well.
That is not what the verse says, "a day is as a thousand years". This is what the verse states:

"But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years."

The key is that the Day of the Lord is not a normal day. Peter is not equating 24 hours as 1,000 years. Peter is equating the Day of the Lord is 1,000 years.

1,000 years is defining this Day of the Lord, not the other way around. A symbolic day does not define literal time in this comparison. In other words, to the Lord, it has been 6 days, since Adam disobeyed God. It has not been 144 hours since Adam disobeyed. It has been almost 6,000 years.

Each 1,000 years has been a segment on that train.

A cube has 6 flat sides. I never said a cube was flat. I said it sat flat on the earth. One of the sides is not concave with a "hill" in the middle. It is not a 1200 mile cube "orbiting" on the surface of a sphere. The Light from the city reaches equally to all corners of the earth. The opposite side of the earth, as on a sphere, is not constantly in the dark. It is never in the dark period, because there is no opposite side of the earth, from this city.
 

Randy Kluth

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That is not what the verse says, "a day is as a thousand years". This is what the verse states:

"But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years."

The key is that the Day of the Lord is not a normal day. Peter is not equating 24 hours as 1,000 years. Peter is equating the Day of the Lord is 1,000 years.

1,000 years is defining this Day of the Lord, not the other way around. A symbolic day does not define literal time in this comparison. In other words, to the Lord, it has been 6 days, since Adam disobeyed God. It has not been 144 hours since Adam disobeyed. It has been almost 6,000 years.

Each 1,000 years has been a segment on that train.

A cube has 6 flat sides. I never said a cube was flat. I said it sat flat on the earth. One of the sides is not concave with a "hill" in the middle. It is not a 1200 mile cube "orbiting" on the surface of a sphere. The Light from the city reaches equally to all corners of the earth. The opposite side of the earth, as on a sphere, is not constantly in the dark. It is never in the dark period, because there is no opposite side of the earth, from this city.
That's well above my ability to comprehend! ;) If you understand it, power to you!

The way I think is in human terms. The earth is a sphere, and it will always continue to have days and nights, because it rotates with the sun regularly bathing the earth in light from one side to the other.

We do hear in the Scriptures that the Lord has something called a "continuous day." But I think that is explained in Revelation by saying that the Lord is the light of the city, and has no need of the sun.

Well, considering modern technology, and the likelihood we produce fusion power, and have an endless supply of electricity, why is it incredible to think God Himself can provide light for the New Jerusalem without need of electricity at all? We just don't need the sun, or any particular kind of geometrics to make this happen!

I've never thought about what you're saying, that a cube cannot sit flat on an earthly sphere. Interesting thought, though. In a practical sense, the borders, however, may just be ideal borders, with no regard for the arc of the earth or its topography. It may be a generalized picture of distances, since even in the present life borders are not perfect but estimates. But who knows?

Thanks for your thoughts. These are just mine....