Man's Works Burned Off the Earth at Jesus' Coming

[Davy]

One of the main phrases used in God's written Word to point to the END of this present world earth age and the day of Christ's future return is, the "day of the Lord".

In 2 Peter 3, Apostle Peter said that "day of the Lord" will come "as a thief in the night", and that man's works will be burned off the earth at that event...

2 Peter 3:10-12
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
KJV

It's important to note that word "elements" above is a Greek word pointing to a world time, or order, and not to earthly material elements like the atomic weight chart of matter.

The previous destructions upon this old earth were by waters of a flood, so Peter is not claiming the whole earth will be destroyed by fire, but only its surface cleansed like the previous destructions God brought by waters. Only this next time the surface destruction upon this earth will be by God's consuming fire. Apostle Paul also explained this at the end of Hebrews 12, that only those things that can be shaken will be removed.

The Jeremiah 4:23-28 Scripture is an example of God's destruction of the old world, most likely at the time when Satan first rebelled against Him. Jeremiah was trying to remind the Jews then that had fallen away from God about that destruction of old that God did, because He was getting ready to send the king of Babylon upon them. They didn't listen. Most of them won't listen to Peter's similar warning of God's coming destruction by His consuming fire for the end of this present world either. Those in Christ Jesus are not to be stubborn and rebellious against His Word about this matter like the unbelieving Jews are.

That "day of the Lord" serves as a TIME MARKER for the END according to Apostle Peter. Also, Apostle Paul gave that "day of the Lord" event as a time marker for the end of this word, pointing to the "sudden destruction" upon the wicked on the last day of this world...

1 Thess 5:2-4
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

3 For when they shall say, "Peace and safety"; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
KJV

Paul also says that "day of the Lord" will come "as a thief in the night". Paul even gives us an end time marker for when that day will come, with that "Peace and safety" idea the wicked and deceived will be saying on that day. Paul also shows that is the 'day' when that "sudden destruction" will come upon them, pointing to the last day of this world with God's consuming fire.

Paul was pulling from the Old Testament prophets, like the Book of Isaiah, about that "sudden destruction" upon the wicked on the last day of this world. The OT prophets showed that event is to come at an instant. Do you recall what Paul taught in 1 Corinthians 15 for the "last trump"? Paul taught on that day those in Christ still alive will be 'changed' "at the twinkling of an eye". That will happen at that same moment of the "sudden destruction" upon the wicked, on the last day of this world when Jesus returns.

Lord Jesus also used the 'as a thief' metaphor about the day of His coming. Thus Lord Jesus linked the day of His future return with that same "day of the Lord" timing when God's consuming fire will burn man's works off this earth...

Rev 16:15
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
KJV

Lord Jesus spoke that as a warning to His elect Church. And He gave that for towards the end of this world so we would not be deceived, commanding us to WATCH. Where else did He warn us to WATCH? Here...

Matt 24:42-47
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

Did you notice that idea of the symbolic "thief" coming, and to be aware of that by watching? Right there Lord Jesus made the day of His future coming linked with that "as a thief" metaphor which Apostles Paul and Peter showed is the 'last day' of this present world. It accompanies the events of the "day of the Lord' on the last day.

44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
KJV

What is that "to give them meat in due season" about which Lord Jesus said that those found doing that when He returns will blessed? It means those of His servants that teach the strong meat of those SIGNS He gave in that chapter leading up to His future coming and gathering of His faithful Church. His "household" is His Church, and the pastors and elders are to be rulers over His Church, and be giving the Church that 'strong meat' of His Word, which per the topic of this Matthew 24 chapter, happens to be about the SIGNS leading up to Jesus' future return that He was commanding... the Church to be watching! That may seem like a lot of info to swallow, but it's very important that the believer on Christ gets that straight in their mind, and especially for the leaders in His Church.

So, you pastors, and teachers, and elders in Christ's Church, you want to be blessed when Jesus returns? Then let Him find you giving out the 'strong meat' of His Word to His Church, showing them to WATCH the SIGNS of the end leading up to His return. That... is the meat in due season for today as we approach the end of this world.

 

[Truth7t7]

So, you pastors, and teachers, and elders in Christ's Church, you want to be blessed when Jesus returns? Then let Him find you giving out the 'strong meat' of His Word to His Church, showing them to WATCH the SIGNS of the end leading up to His return. That... is the meat in due season for today as we approach the end of this world.

Davy is now the teacher of Pastors, and Elders, giving them the meat of God's words, Big Smiles!

Jesus Returns in fire and final judgement (The End)

 

[Randy Kluth]

One of the main phrases used in God's written Word to point to the END of this present world earth age and the day of Christ's future return is, the "day of the Lord".

In 2 Peter 3, Apostle Peter said that "day of the Lord" will come "as a thief in the night", and that man's works will be burned off the earth at that event...

2 Peter 3:10-12
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

...The previous destructions upon this old earth were by waters of a flood, so Peter is not claiming the whole earth will be destroyed by fire, but only its surface cleansed like the previous destructions God brought by waters. Only this next time the surface destruction upon this earth will be by God's consuming fire. Apostle Paul also explained this at the end of Hebrews 12, that only those things that can be shaken will be removed.

...That "day of the Lord" serves as a TIME MARKER for the END according to Apostle Peter. Also, Apostle Paul gave that "day of the Lord" event as a time marker for the end of this word, pointing to the "sudden destruction" upon the wicked on the last day of this world...

...So, you pastors, and teachers, and elders in Christ's Church, you want to be blessed when Jesus returns? Then let Him find you giving out the 'strong meat' of His Word to His Church, showing them to WATCH the SIGNS of the end leading up to His return. That... is the meat in due season for today as we approach the end of this world.

I think Jesus describes true religion as not just "talk," but more "feeding his sheep." It's "taking care of his people," including their physical needs. Certainly that would include the ministry of the Word by pastors and teachers.

My sense of the Day of the Lord draws upon the Prophets, who spoke of a day in which God is vindicated after years of enduring rebellion from His people. God tolerates idolatry and rebellion for only so long before He shows that He rules the universe by determining to end the rebellion.

This judgment is catastrophic for those who thought they were getting away with something. And it is irreversible, even though people had thought God was "kind" and "compassionate" towards those who apologize.

In reality, God is kind and compassionate, which is precisely why He had endured the rebels so long, hoping they would repent before judgment. But there comes a time when God must cleanse the earth of those who pollute it and wreck havoc upon those who wish for peace and prosperity.

The exhaustive hyperbolic terms God uses to describe His day of judgment may be truly comprehensive--how much I don't claim to know? I say "hyperbolic" because such exhaustive terms have been used for historic judgments that did not "end the world." It just ended the world for those who had been living in the lap of luxury at the expense of those who had been abused and robbed. All of their wealth and security was taken from them, and their whole world collapsed as enemies burned their entire fields and all their houses.

I know a day is coming when the earth will be *completely* purged of all sinners. I suppose that's what Peter and Paul were talking about when they mentioned the Day of the Lord? But it begins locally at Armageddon, I believe, with a global impact. Armageddon is a single geographical location. But the battle ends up causing entire cities to fall, which sounds a lot like nuclear warfare.

The point at which *all* sinners and all mortals are removed from the earth seems to be at the end of the Millennium, when the New Jerusalem descends from heaven to earth. But we know a major world judgment takes place at Christ's return at the beginning of the Millennium.

It will not annihilate the earth, obviously. But it will initiate a far-reaching global change such that the world will enter into its final phase before a final modification of the earth. Just my thoughts...

 

[ScottA]

One of the main phrases used in God's written Word to point to the END of this present world earth age and the day of Christ's future return is, the "day of the Lord".

In 2 Peter 3, Apostle Peter said that "day of the Lord" will come "as a thief in the night", and that man's works will be burned off the earth at that event...

2 Peter 3:10-12
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
KJV

It's important to note that word "elements" above is a Greek word pointing to a world time, or order, and not to earthly material elements like the atomic weight chart of matter.

The previous destructions upon this old earth were by waters of a flood, so Peter is not claiming the whole earth will be destroyed by fire, but only its surface cleansed like the previous destructions God brought by waters. Only this next time the surface destruction upon this earth will be by God's consuming fire. Apostle Paul also explained this at the end of Hebrews 12, that only those things that can be shaken will be removed.

The Jeremiah 4:23-28 Scripture is an example of God's destruction of the old world, most likely at the time when Satan first rebelled against Him. Jeremiah was trying to remind the Jews then that had fallen away from God about that destruction of old that God did, because He was getting ready to send the king of Babylon upon them. They didn't listen. Most of them won't listen to Peter's similar warning of God's coming destruction by His consuming fire for the end of this present world either. Those in Christ Jesus are not to be stubborn and rebellious against His Word about this matter like the unbelieving Jews are.

That "day of the Lord" serves as a TIME MARKER for the END according to Apostle Peter. Also, Apostle Paul gave that "day of the Lord" event as a time marker for the end of this word, pointing to the "sudden destruction" upon the wicked on the last day of this world...

1 Thess 5:2-4
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

3 For when they shall say, "Peace and safety"; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
KJV

Paul also says that "day of the Lord" will come "as a thief in the night". Paul even gives us an end time marker for when that day will come, with that "Peace and safety" idea the wicked and deceived will be saying on that day. Paul also shows that is the 'day' when that "sudden destruction" will come upon them, pointing to the last day of this world with God's consuming fire.

Paul was pulling from the Old Testament prophets, like the Book of Isaiah, about that "sudden destruction" upon the wicked on the last day of this world. The OT prophets showed that event is to come at an instant. Do you recall what Paul taught in 1 Corinthians 15 for the "last trump"? Paul taught on that day those in Christ still alive will be 'changed' "at the twinkling of an eye". That will happen at that same moment of the "sudden destruction" upon the wicked, on the last day of this world when Jesus returns.

Lord Jesus also used the 'as a thief' metaphor about the day of His coming. Thus Lord Jesus linked the day of His future return with that same "day of the Lord" timing when God's consuming fire will burn man's works off this earth...

Rev 16:15
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
KJV

Lord Jesus spoke that as a warning to His elect Church. And He gave that for towards the end of this world so we would not be deceived, commanding us to WATCH. Where else did He warn us to WATCH? Here...

Matt 24:42-47
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

Did you notice that idea of the symbolic "thief" coming, and to be aware of that by watching? Right there Lord Jesus made the day of His future coming linked with that "as a thief" metaphor which Apostles Paul and Peter showed is the 'last day' of this present world. It accompanies the events of the "day of the Lord' on the last day.

44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
KJV

What is that "to give them meat in due season" about which Lord Jesus said that those found doing that when He returns will blessed? It means those of His servants that teach the strong meat of those SIGNS He gave in that chapter leading up to His future coming and gathering of His faithful Church. His "household" is His Church, and the pastors and elders are to be rulers over His Church, and be giving the Church that 'strong meat' of His Word, which per the topic of this Matthew 24 chapter, happens to be about the SIGNS leading up to Jesus' future return that He was commanding... the Church to be watching! That may seem like a lot of info to swallow, but it's very important that the believer on Christ gets that straight in their mind, and especially for the leaders in His Church.

So, you pastors, and teachers, and elders in Christ's Church, you want to be blessed when Jesus returns? Then let Him find you giving out the 'strong meat' of His Word to His Church, showing them to WATCH the SIGNS of the end leading up to His return. That... is the meat in due season for today as we approach the end of this world.

You speculate as a man, a natural man.

Have you not read where it says, "the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual?"

Thus, indeed the flood of Noah was natural--but what was to come was not natural, not by natural flames, but by holy fire.

As for the "elements", "old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new"--including these "heavens and the earth" just as it is written.

Stop preaching speculations.

 

[Davy]

I think Jesus describes true religion as not just "talk," but more "feeding his sheep." It's "taking care of his people," including their physical needs. Certainly that would include the ministry of the Word by pastors and teachers.

My sense of the Day of the Lord draws upon the Prophets, who spoke of a day in which God is vindicated after years of enduring rebellion from His people. God tolerates idolatry and rebellion for only so long before He shows that He rules the universe by determining to end the rebellion.

This judgment is catastrophic for those who thought they were getting away with something. And it is irreversible, even though people had thought God was "kind" and "compassionate" towards those who apologize.

In reality, God is kind and compassionate, which is precisely why He had endured the rebels so long, hoping they would repent before judgment. But there comes a time when God must cleanse the earth of those who pollute it and wreck havoc upon those who wish for peace and prosperity.

The exhaustive hyperbolic terms God uses to describe His day of judgment may be truly comprehensive--how much I don't claim to know? I say "hyperbolic" because such exhaustive terms have been used for historic judgments that did not "end the world." It just ended the world for those who had been living in the lap of luxury at the expense of those who had been abused and robbed. All of their wealth and security was taken from them, and their whole world collapsed as enemies burned their entire fields and all their houses.

I know a day is coming when the earth will be *completely* purged of all sinners. I suppose that's what Peter and Paul were talking about when they mentioned the Day of the Lord? But it begins locally at Armageddon, I believe, with a global impact. Armageddon is a single geographical location. But the battle ends up causing entire cities to fall, which sounds a lot like nuclear warfare.

The point at which *all* sinners and all mortals are removed from the earth seems to be at the end of the Millennium, when the New Jerusalem descends from heaven to earth. But we know a major world judgment takes place at Christ's return at the beginning of the Millennium.

It will not annihilate the earth, obviously. But it will initiate a far-reaching global change such that the world will enter into its final phase before a final modification of the earth. Just my thoughts...

The battle of Armageddon is actually the events of Ezekiel 38 about 'ro'sh' (Russia) and its allies for the end of this world that will come upon Jerusalem and... at the same time against the Christian west (the actual Israel mentioned dwelling without walls). So yes, God's consuming fire destruction will be global. That is what I see.

On the "last trump" all... peoples alive on the earth will be 'changed', at the 'twinkling of an eye', meaning the flesh will be cast off. I realize for many it is different to believe that the world to come will not be an existence in flesh bodies like Jewish traditions teach, but that is how it will be. Thing is, the resurrection body, which is a "spiritual body" according to Apostle Paul, looks like a flesh body, feels like one, and can live upon this earth and eat earthly food. Paul also called that body of the future the "image of the heavenly". It is the angelic type body.

So on the "day of the Lord", which is the day of Christ's future return, everyone's spiritual body is going to be revealed in the Heavenly dimension. That is how on that day, those still alive of Christ's Church on earth are gathered to Jesus into the 'air' (breath of life type body, i.e. the spiritual body).

The wicked will have that spiritual body too, because the "resurrection of damnation" is about the wicked dead that are raised on that day, and Paul showed the resurrection means to a spiritual body.

So it's not going to be like a portion of the dead are in resurrection type bodies while another portion of the wicked are still in flesh bodies, while those in Christ are all in spiritual bodies. No, everyone... will be in the spiritual body type. The unsaved will still have souls that are liable to die, i.e., mortal. One can have the spiritual body and still have a spiritually dead soul. The rich man of Luke 16 taken by angels to hell we were told he died and his flesh body was buried, so that means the rich man had a spirit body in order to appear in hell.

 

[Davy]

You speculate as a man, a natural man.

Have you not read where it says, "the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual?"

Thus, indeed the flood of Noah was natural--but what was to come was not natural, not by natural flames, but by holy fire.

As for the "elements", "old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new"--including these "heavens and the earth" just as it is written.

Stop preaching speculations.

I'm not speculating on that at all, I keep what Apostle Paul taught there in 1 Corinthians 15. The change at the twinkling of an eye is to a "spiritual body", showing the flesh cast off on that "day of the Lord" at the "last trump".

As for calling me a "natural man", you turn so much of God's Literal Word into symbology that it amazes me how you're able to get out of bed in the morning without your trying to turn basic objects into symbology impossible to understand!

 

[Randy Kluth]

The battle of Armageddon is actually the events of Ezekiel 38 about 'ro'sh' (Russia) and its allies for the end of this world that will come upon Jerusalem and... at the same time against the Christian west (the actual Israel mentioned dwelling without walls). So yes, God's consuming fire destruction will be global. That is what I see.

On the "last trump" all... peoples alive on the earth will be 'changed', at the 'twinkling of an eye', meaning the flesh will be cast off. I realize for many it is different to believe that the world to come will not be an existence in flesh bodies like Jewish traditions teach, but that is how it will be. Thing is, the resurrection body, which is a "spiritual body" according to Apostle Paul, looks like a flesh body, feels like one, and can live upon this earth and eat earthly food. Paul also called that body of the future the "image of the heavenly". It is the angelic type body.

So on the "day of the Lord", which is the day of Christ's future return, everyone's spiritual body is going to be revealed in the Heavenly dimension. That is how on that day, those still alive of Christ's Church on earth are gathered to Jesus into the 'air' (breath of life type body, i.e. the spiritual body).

The wicked will have that spiritual body too, because the "resurrection of damnation" is about the wicked dead that are raised on that day, and Paul showed the resurrection means to a spiritual body.

So it's not going to be like a portion of the dead are in resurrection type bodies while another portion of the wicked are still in flesh bodies, while those in Christ are all in spiritual bodies. No, everyone... will be in the spiritual body type. The unsaved will still have souls that are liable to die, i.e., mortal. One can have the spiritual body and still have a spiritually dead soul. The rich man of Luke 16 taken by angels to hell we were told he died and his flesh body was buried, so that means the rich man had a spirit body in order to appear in hell.

Yes, I do believe that both the saved and the unsaved are resurrected into new bodies. The only thing here that I disagree with is that when the Lord comes back I believe there will be a literal Millennium, with the earth's history continuing as is for another thousand years. Mortal humanity will still be here, whereas the Christians up to that point will be resurrected into new glorious bodies.

And so, during the Millennium the righteous will reign in glorious new bodies, while earth's mortal history continues for another thousand years. The resurrection of the lost takes place at the end of the thousand years, I believe. So I suppose we're just disagreeing on the Premil/Amil thing, or am I missing something?

 

[Keraz]

It will not annihilate the earth, obviously. But it will initiate a far-reaching global change such that the world will enter into its final phase before a final modification of the earth

Isaiah 28:21 The Lord will arise as He did on Mt Perazim, [1 Chron. 14:11] and storm with rage as He did in the valley of Gibeon, [Joshua 10:9-15] to do what He must do, to perform a strange and alien task.

Isaiah 29:5 Suddenly, in an instant the horde of your enemies will crumble into dust, punishment will come from the Lord, with thunder, earthquakes, with storm and tempest and flames of devouring fire.

Isaiah 13:6-13 Cry out: for the Day of the Lord is at hand, it will come in a mighty destruction. Fear will grip everyone, men will lose courage at the coming disaster. That cruel Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath is coming to reduce all the earth to a desolation and to destroy the evil and godless people on it. It will be a Day of darkness, on the day that the Lord brings disaster onto the world and due punishment to the wicked. He will put an end to arrogance and will humble the pride of the ruthless. Humans will become as scarce as fine gold, on the Day that the heavens will be moved and the earth shaken from its place, at the wrath of the Lord, in the Day of His blazing anger.
Ref. REB, some verses abridged.

As Isaiah tells us: The Lord has in the past acted to destroy His enemies and now: once again, He will take action and instigate His fiery punishment.
Isaiah 42:14 Long have I restrained Myself…now I groan like a woman in labour. I shall lay to waste the earth and cause the streams and lakes to dry up. Isaiah 59:18, Isaiah 63:1-6, Isaiah 64:1-2, Psalms 68:1-2, Jer. 12:14, Deuteronomy 32:26-43


The Lord will arise, to perform a strange task – to punish His enemies, the attackers of Israel and to humble the godless. Micah 4:11-12

Punishment will come from the Lord – not a nuclear war or anything instigated by man, but God controlled, triggered by an Islamic attack onto Israel. Psalms 83, Isaiah 21:2 & 22:6

Suddenly, in an instant – This is the event that ‘will come like a thief’, unexpectedly.

earthquakes – Earthquakes will be caused by the microwave effect of the electromagnetic pulse in a huge Coronal Mass Ejection. Isaiah 30:26, Malachi 4:1, Revelation 6:12-17

devouring fire – The fireball of the high temperature cosmic plasma of a CME.

the Day of the Lord is at hand – This is the logical result of most of mankind’s rejection of God and His Laws. Hebrews 10:27

Fear will grip everyone – This sudden and shocking event will terrify all those people unaware of God’s plans. Ezekiel 7:15-19

a mighty destruction, to reduce the earth to desolation – A worldwide disaster.

a day of darkness – The approaching mass from the sun will obscure it, also smoke from city and forest fires and ash from volcanoes.

Humans will become scarce – Millions will die from the initial strike and millions more from famine afterwards. Jeremiah 9:22

the heavens move – the magnetosphere and the atmosphere will be pushed aside at the impact area; the Middle East. Ezekiel 30:1-5, Isaiah 34:4, Rev. 6:14

the earth will shake from its place – the hit from this CME may cause the earth’s orbit to speed up, thereby giving us a 360 day year, which is the prophetic year. Isaiah 24:1

His blazing anger – It is appropriate that the Lord will use the sun, our life sustainer, to judge mankind. Deut. 32:34-35 A CME solar flare perfectly and literally fulfils all the prophesied effects, but it will quickly pass by, leaving the world to recover. A world that will never be the same again and the stage will be set for all the other prophesied things to happen before the Return of Jesus for His Millennium reign.

 

[WPM]

during the Millennium the righteous will reign in glorious new bodies, while earth's mortal history continues for another thousand years. The resurrection of the lost takes place at the end of the thousand years, I believe. So I suppose we're just disagreeing on the Premil/Amil thing, or am I missing something?

Can you give us one Scripture that teaches: during the a future millennium the righteous will reign in glorious new bodies while earth's mortal will continue for another thousand years?

 

[Randy Kluth]

Can you give us one Scripture that teaches: during the a future millennium the righteous will reign in glorious new bodies while earth's mortal will continue for another thousand years?

Yes, I've done it a number of times, although I understand the concern. It seems strange--nothing like it has ever happened before.

However, somebody who is glorified and resurrected is ruling in heaven right now over the earth, namely Jesus. He has deferred, however, to the Father's will to allow Satan limited rule in the present age. Jesus also has angels in heaven who have authority over Satan, even though Satan continues to oppress and persecute God's People.

So number one, we have the fact of the Millennium given in Rev 20. It can't be stated enough because it is, in fact, there. There is no basis for rendering the thousand a symbol or a saying or an allegory. It is what it is, with not a single statement indicating it is not literal. It may perhaps be viewed as a symbol because it is an even number. But since there is basis for a future Kingdom of mortals, a thousand years does make sense to me.

If you look at the supernatural power that God has endowed men of God with in the past, you might see a reflection of this glorious rule over mortal men. David slew Goliath with just a few stones in his hand. And Samson struck down a large number with the jaw of an ass.

But really, you would need to prove that normal human history does not continue at the Coming of Christ. Normally, we are told that exhaustive terms are used indicating God will judge all and leave nobody left alive. And yet, we see hyperbolic terms used all the time that certainly do not apply in an exhaustive way.

Clearly, God will eventually judge every last human being. But in destroying the world we need more than just insight into the eternal future. We need to know if at Christ's Coming there is an instant transfer of history over into eternity with no mortal human beings left.

So if there are survivors of Armageddon and people witnessing the Return of Christ, and the mourning of Jews at his Coming, and burial of corpses, and the devouring of corpses by birds, then we know that there are survivors of Armageddon and mortals still living after the Coming of Christ. Certainly all up to that point will have been judged in some respects, but not all will have heard the Gospel unimpeded.

So I do believe that when Christ returns the Gospel will continue to be preached, and all will come to know, as the knowledge of the Lord covers the earth as the waters cover the sea. Does this mean all will get saved? No, even knowing who Christ is many just don't like him. They will not get saved.

But the important thing, for me, is that the promises God made to Abraham will be fulfilled. Israel will be restored. And many nations will adopt Christianity and retain the faith. And the Gospel will bring to completion its mission of telling the whole world the truth about Christ and his Salvation.

You would need to prove that there are no survivors at Armageddon. And the only thing I see being offered up are these hyperbolic terms like, "the elements will dissolve," and "all flesh will be destroyed." Quite frankly, any campfire dissolves elements. A world war will completely define what this massive world-wide destruction sounds like, even with many, many survivors. The elements will dissolve, and there will be massive destruction on earth, and a complete destruction of the Antichrist's Army.

But I doubt any of these things will change anybody's mind? The arguments are there either way, and we are left with whatever position we're committed to. But thanks for asking...again.

Rev 2.26 To the one who is victorious and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations— 27 that one ‘will rule them with an iron scepter and will dash them to pieces like pottery’—just as I have received authority from my Father.

Rev 12.5 She gave birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.” And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne.

Rev 19.15 Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.”

Rom 15.12 And again, Isaiah says, “The Root of Jesse will spring up, one who will arise to rule over the nations; in him the Gentiles will hope.”

Rev 5.10 You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign on the earth.”

Rev 20.4 They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

2 Tim 2.12 if we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us

 

[Randy Kluth]

Isaiah 28:21 The Lord will arise as He did on Mt Perazim, [1 Chron. 14:11] and storm with rage as He did in the valley of Gibeon, [Joshua 10:9-15] to do what He must do, to perform a strange and alien task.

Isaiah 29:5 Suddenly, in an instant the horde of your enemies will crumble into dust, punishment will come from the Lord, with thunder, earthquakes, with storm and tempest and flames of devouring fire.

Isaiah 13:6-13 Cry out: for the Day of the Lord is at hand, it will come in a mighty destruction. Fear will grip everyone, men will lose courage at the coming disaster. That cruel Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath is coming to reduce all the earth to a desolation and to destroy the evil and godless people on it. It will be a Day of darkness, on the day that the Lord brings disaster onto the world and due punishment to the wicked. He will put an end to arrogance and will humble the pride of the ruthless. Humans will become as scarce as fine gold, on the Day that the heavens will be moved and the earth shaken from its place, at the wrath of the Lord, in the Day of His blazing anger.
Ref. REB, some verses abridged.

As Isaiah tells us: The Lord has in the past acted to destroy His enemies and now: once again, He will take action and instigate His fiery punishment.
Isaiah 42:14 Long have I restrained Myself…now I groan like a woman in labour. I shall lay to waste the earth and cause the streams and lakes to dry up. Isaiah 59:18, Isaiah 63:1-6, Isaiah 64:1-2, Psalms 68:1-2, Jer. 12:14, Deuteronomy 32:26-43


The Lord will arise, to perform a strange task – to punish His enemies, the attackers of Israel and to humble the godless. Micah 4:11-12

Punishment will come from the Lord – not a nuclear war or anything instigated by man, but God controlled, triggered by an Islamic attack onto Israel. Psalms 83, Isaiah 21:2 & 22:6

Suddenly, in an instant – This is the event that ‘will come like a thief’, unexpectedly.

earthquakes – Earthquakes will be caused by the microwave effect of the electromagnetic pulse in a huge Coronal Mass Ejection. Isaiah 30:26, Malachi 4:1, Revelation 6:12-17

devouring fire – The fireball of the high temperature cosmic plasma of a CME.

the Day of the Lord is at hand – This is the logical result of most of mankind’s rejection of God and His Laws. Hebrews 10:27

Fear will grip everyone – This sudden and shocking event will terrify all those people unaware of God’s plans. Ezekiel 7:15-19

a mighty destruction, to reduce the earth to desolation – A worldwide disaster.

a day of darkness – The approaching mass from the sun will obscure it, also smoke from city and forest fires and ash from volcanoes.

Humans will become scarce – Millions will die from the initial strike and millions more from famine afterwards. Jeremiah 9:22

the heavens move – the magnetosphere and the atmosphere will be pushed aside at the impact area; the Middle East. Ezekiel 30:1-5, Isaiah 34:4, Rev. 6:14

the earth will shake from its place – the hit from this CME may cause the earth’s orbit to speed up, thereby giving us a 360 day year, which is the prophetic year. Isaiah 24:1

His blazing anger – It is appropriate that the Lord will use the sun, our life sustainer, to judge mankind. Deut. 32:34-35 A CME solar flare perfectly and literally fulfils all the prophesied effects, but it will quickly pass by, leaving the world to recover. A world that will never be the same again and the stage will be set for all the other prophesied things to happen before the Return of Jesus for His Millennium reign.

I guess we'll see? I do anticipate some major judgments prior to the 2nd Coming. But if it is too far-reaching, or too enormous, the world will not be able to recover on time to set up the Beast system and Armageddon.

 

[Keraz]

I guess we'll see? I do anticipate some major judgments prior to the 2nd Coming. But if it is too far-reaching, or too enormous, the world will not be able to recover on time to set up the Beast system and Armageddon.

I liked your post #10. There will be mortals in the Millenium, but the ONLY resurrected and immortal being there, will be Jesus. Also the GT martyrs will be resurrected, back to mortality, as they may die again. Rev 20:4-6

Why must you say: 'I guess we will see'? Isn't the Prophetic Word, as spoken by Isaiah, as I posted in #8 and reiterated in over 100 other prophesies, good enough for you?
There will be enough time, events will happen relatively quickly, once the Sixth Seal happens. That disaster will be centred on the Middle East, Zephaniah 2:1-6, Ezekiel 30:1-5, +
Many will die around the world, too; but enough will survive to fulfil the prophesies about people worshiping the 'beast'.

 

[Randy Kluth]

I liked your post #10. There will be mortals in the Millenium, but the ONLY resurrected and immortal being there, will be Jesus. Also the GT martyrs will be resurrected, back to mortality, as they may die again. Rev 20:4-6

Why must you say: 'I guess we will see'? Isn't the Prophetic Word, as spoken by Isaiah, as I posted in #8 and reiterated in over 100 other prophesies, good enough for you?
There will be enough time, events will happen relatively quickly, once the Sixth Seal happens. That disaster will be centred on the Middle East, Zephaniah 2:1-6, Ezekiel 30:1-5, +
Many will die around the world, too; but enough will survive to fulfil the prophesies about people worshiping the 'beast'.

I say, "I guess we'll see" because much of the future scenario is speculative. Yes, it is based on God's Word, but it may not be fully revealed until we really need to apply it. But I see nothing wrong with believing as much of it as we're relatively sure about.

Again, I agree that preliminary judgments will come, prior to Armageddon. But I do believe that when Jesus returns he will catch us up to the clouds to receive new immortal bodies. And then we will reign over the mortal earth.

That's how I see it. You're certainly welcome to have your own beliefs. I wouldn't disfellowship a brother over these things!

 

[WPM]

Yes, I've done it a number of times, although I understand the concern. It seems strange--nothing like it has ever happened before.

However, somebody who is glorified and resurrected is ruling in heaven right now over the earth, namely Jesus. He has deferred, however, to the Father's will to allow Satan limited rule in the present age. Jesus also has angels in heaven who have authority over Satan, even though Satan continues to oppress and persecute God's People.

So number one, we have the fact of the Millennium given in Rev 20. It can't be stated enough because it is, in fact, there. There is no basis for rendering the thousand a symbol or a saying or an allegory. It is what it is, with not a single statement indicating it is not literal. It may perhaps be viewed as a symbol because it is an even number. But since there is basis for a future Kingdom of mortals, a thousand years does make sense to me.

If you look at the supernatural power that God has endowed men of God with in the past, you might see a reflection of this glorious rule over mortal men. David slew Goliath with just a few stones in his hand. And Samson struck down a large number with the jaw of an ass.

But really, you would need to prove that normal human history does not continue at the Coming of Christ. Normally, we are told that exhaustive terms are used indicating God will judge all and leave nobody left alive. And yet, we see hyperbolic terms used all the time that certainly do not apply in an exhaustive way.

Clearly, God will eventually judge every last human being. But in destroying the world we need more than just insight into the eternal future. We need to know if at Christ's Coming there is an instant transfer of history over into eternity with no mortal human beings left.

So if there are survivors of Armageddon and people witnessing the Return of Christ, and the mourning of Jews at his Coming, and burial of corpses, and the devouring of corpses by birds, then we know that there are survivors of Armageddon and mortals still living after the Coming of Christ. Certainly all up to that point will have been judged in some respects, but not all will have heard the Gospel unimpeded.

So I do believe that when Christ returns the Gospel will continue to be preached, and all will come to know, as the knowledge of the Lord covers the earth as the waters cover the sea. Does this mean all will get saved? No, even knowing who Christ is many just don't like him. They will not get saved.

But the important thing, for me, is that the promises God made to Abraham will be fulfilled. Israel will be restored. And many nations will adopt Christianity and retain the faith. And the Gospel will bring to completion its mission of telling the whole world the truth about Christ and his Salvation.

You would need to prove that there are no survivors at Armageddon. And the only thing I see being offered up are these hyperbolic terms like, "the elements will dissolve," and "all flesh will be destroyed." Quite frankly, any campfire dissolves elements. A world war will completely define what this massive world-wide destruction sounds like, even with many, many survivors. The elements will dissolve, and there will be massive destruction on earth, and a complete destruction of the Antichrist's Army.

But I doubt any of these things will change anybody's mind? The arguments are there either way, and we are left with whatever position we're committed to. But thanks for asking...again.

Rev 2.26 To the one who is victorious and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations— 27 that one ‘will rule them with an iron scepter and will dash them to pieces like pottery’—just as I have received authority from my Father.

Rev 12.5 She gave birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.” And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne.

Rev 19.15 Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.”

Rom 15.12 And again, Isaiah says, “The Root of Jesse will spring up, one who will arise to rule over the nations; in him the Gentiles will hope.”

Rev 5.10 You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign on the earth.”

Rev 20.4 They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

2 Tim 2.12 if we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us

No you have not. You or no Premil has been able to answer that question. You didn't answer the question. Your opinion is not biblical evidence. Where does it teach that?

 

[Randy Kluth]

No you have not. You or no Premil has been able to answer that question. You didn't answer the question. Your opinion is not biblical evidence. Where does it teach that?

My answer to your question were all the quotes from the Bible I gave you, indicating that it is our destiny to rule and reign with Christ. Who are we to rule over if not fallible human beings who have not yet been eternally sentenced in judgment? Since Rev 20 indicates that history continues for another 1000 years, we are naturally to expect the world will continue "as is." It is up to you to prove not. But as I said, the only proof you seem to have are the statements about exhaustive judgment to take place at Christ's 2nd Coming, leaving no means of perpetuating the human race "as is" for another thousand years.

If you think I haven't answered the question, I would return the same concern to you. You have provided no proof that judgment will be exhaustive at Christ's 2nd Coming. Superlative, hyperbolic statements do not always have to indicate an exhaustive, immediate event. Where is the proof that a thousand years in Rev 20 is *not* to be taken literally? There is nothing indicating it is being used as a "saying!" There is nothing to indicate it is being used as an "allegory." It's use as a saying or as an allegory in other places does not prove it is to be taken as such in Rev 20!

So you have to deny that a "thousand years" is to be taken literally in Rev 20. And the only evidence you seem to offer are the comprehensive statements of judgment that can be localized by their context. "All flesh," for example, can means "all kinds of flesh." "All men everywhere" can mean "all men in every region." It really isn't spelled out, and I would therefore assume that all of the passages indicating that the human race survives Armageddon hold true. That ranges from the remorse expressed by the Jews at the Coming of the Lord to the burial of bodies after the judgment of Gog.

But most importantly, I showed you that our destiny is to rule over this fallen planet, to ensure Satan remains in his hole and God's promises are fulfilled among those in need of forgiveness. The operating prophecy is this: "the knowledge of the Lord will cover the earth as the waters cover the sea." This holds significance in a world still in the throes of their double-mindedness, utilizing the ambiguity of human indecisiveness to claim there is too much confusion to believe in Christ. That excuse must be taken away, I feel. And the Millennium solves that problem. That part is indeed my opinion.

 

[ScottA]

I'm not speculating on that at all, I keep what Apostle Paul taught there in 1 Corinthians 15. The change at the twinkling of an eye is to a "spiritual body", showing the flesh cast off on that "day of the Lord" at the "last trump".

As for calling me a "natural man", you turn so much of God's Literal Word into symbology that it amazes me how you're able to get out of bed in the morning without your trying to turn basic objects into symbology impossible to understand!

You are not "keeping what Apostle Paul taught there in 1 Corinthians 15", but rather translating by your own understanding. Since you do not know what "the change", "the flesh cast off", "the day of the Lord", and the "last trump" actually refer to--I will tell you:

All of those things indeed occur at the last trump. But it does not speak of the sounding of some would-be heavenly horn--but rather of that last beat of ones fleshly heart. Which is not to say, that it is at death (as it was with Israel, except for those who do not believe), but rather for those who believe, it is when the flesh is dead to God and made alive in the Spirit--which does not mean one has passed from this world, for "we who are alive and remain" only pass when the times are fulfilled.​

As for symbolism, if you have complaints, take them to God who created the world symbolizing the Ruler of Light with the sun and the ruler of the darkness with the moon, created us symbolically in His own image, set every generation in the symbolism of being born in the flesh to symbolize being born again of the spirit of God, began the symbol of marriage among men and women for thousands of years before revealing it to more importantly be a symbol of our marriage with the Bridegroom symbolizing the Son of God, then destroyed the earth by a watery symbol of what was to come by the Spirit being poured out upon all flesh, and ordered the sacrifice of countless lambs symbolizing the Son of God symbolized as a Lamb, etc., etc.. --Which would be nice--I mean if you did take it to God, 'cause you could use some correction coming from He who you could not contradict while thinking you know better. Meanwhile you might want to retract from your anti-symbolism stance, because Christ is also a symbol of God who sent Him, meaning it is also anti-Christ.

 

[WPM]

My answer to your question were all the quotes from the Bible I gave you, indicating that it is our destiny to rule and reign with Christ. Who are we to rule over if not fallible human beings who have not yet been eternally sentenced in judgment? Since Rev 20 indicates that history continues for another 1000 years, we are naturally to expect the world will continue "as is." It is up to you to prove not. But as I said, the only proof you seem to have are the statements about exhaustive judgment to take place at Christ's 2nd Coming, leaving no means of perpetuating the human race "as is" for another thousand years.

If you think I haven't answered the question, I would return the same concern to you. You have provided no proof that judgment will be exhaustive at Christ's 2nd Coming. Superlative, hyperbolic statements do not always have to indicate an exhaustive, immediate event. Where is the proof that a thousand years in Rev 20 is *not* to be taken literally? There is nothing indicating it is being used as a "saying!" There is nothing to indicate it is being used as an "allegory." It's use as a saying or as an allegory in other places does not prove it is to be taken as such in Rev 20!

So you have to deny that a "thousand years" is to be taken literally in Rev 20. And the only evidence you seem to offer are the comprehensive statements of judgment that can be localized by their context. "All flesh," for example, can means "all kinds of flesh." "All men everywhere" can mean "all men in every region." It really isn't spelled out, and I would therefore assume that all of the passages indicating that the human race survives Armageddon hold true. That ranges from the remorse expressed by the Jews at the Coming of the Lord to the burial of bodies after the judgment of Gog.

But most importantly, I showed you that our destiny is to rule over this fallen planet, to ensure Satan remains in his hole and God's promises are fulfilled among those in need of forgiveness. The operating prophecy is this: "the knowledge of the Lord will cover the earth as the waters cover the sea." This holds significance in a world still in the throes of their double-mindedness, utilizing the ambiguity of human indecisiveness to claim there is too much confusion to believe in Christ. That excuse must be taken away, I feel. And the Millennium solves that problem. That part is indeed my opinion.

Your arguments are essentially based on "by implication," not explicit Scripture. Your foundation is built upon silence. You do that with Scripture and the ECFs, who overwhelming taught Amil fundamentals. You force your beliefs upon those texts above when they do not teach or support your speculations. I suspect you know that by your constant failure to provide direct evidence of a future millennium where the righteous will reign in glorious new bodies while earth's mortal will continue for another thousand years. The reality is: it is not in the inspired pages. It is a Premil invention.

The reality is, Scripture teaches:

• The kingdom of God has already spiritually arrived. You reject that.
• Jesus defeated every enemy and removed every impediment to the eternal liberation of God's people. You reject that.
• Jesus is currently ruling over the nations (including His enemies) at the right hand of majesty. You reject that.
• The redeemed have now been empowered with authority to enforce Christ's great victory of 2000 years ago the great commission. They have been given authority over Satan and his minions. Being "in Christ," they currently rule in life and in death with Him. You reject that.
• Satan's kingdom (the Gentile nations) has been invaded by the Gospel. The Gentiles have been enlightened for 2000 years. They are now without excuse. You reject that.

You have no answer for the explicit statements of the Word. You are more comfortable foist your false teaching upon it.

The reign we partake in the future is eternal. Wicked mortals are prohibited from the new glorified earth. This is a victorious reign on the new earth. There is no need for us to reign over anyone. The applicable Scriptures pertaining to the future do not demand that. Only the current ones do, where Christ and His people perfectly realize that.

 

[Timtofly]

I know a day is coming when the earth will be *completely* purged of all sinners. I suppose that's what Peter and Paul were talking about when they mentioned the Day of the Lord? But it begins locally at Armageddon, I believe, with a global impact. Armageddon is a single geographical location. But the battle ends up causing entire cities to fall, which sounds a lot like nuclear warfare.

Armageddon is the end of Adam's dead corruptible flesh. The 4th Seal was the beginning with 2 billion souls removed from Adam's dead corruptible flesh. Then 2 billion in the Trumpets. Who knows how many in the Thunders? Many will die in the 42 months of AoD. That is not even counting the church as she is not the target of deaths mentioned in Scripture as Scripture declares the church cannot taste death. Of course when the church leaves is the subject of controversy. Needless to say, by Armageddon all of Adam's dead corruptible flesh will no longer exist.

Unless you are starting in Revelation 19 and reading in reverse order, Armageddon is the last mentioned event, not the first.

 

[Jay Ross]

Armageddon is the end of Adam's dead corruptible flesh. The 4th Seal was the beginning with 2 billion souls removed from Adam's dead corruptible flesh. Then 2 billion in the Trumpets. Who knows how many in the Thunders? Many will die in the 42 months of AoD. That is not even counting the church as she is not the target of deaths mentioned in Scripture as Scripture declares the church cannot taste death. Of course when the church leaves is the subject of controversy. Needless to say, by Armageddon all of Adam's dead corruptible flesh will no longer exist.

Unless you are starting in Revelation 19 and reading in reverse order, Armageddon is the last mentioned event, not the first.

Really, I simply disagree you your logic. It is contrary to what is recorded in scripture.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Armageddon is the end of Adam's dead corruptible flesh. The 4th Seal was the beginning with 2 billion souls removed from Adam's dead corruptible flesh. Then 2 billion in the Trumpets. Who knows how many in the Thunders? Many will die in the 42 months of AoD. That is not even counting the church as she is not the target of deaths mentioned in Scripture as Scripture declares the church cannot taste death. Of course when the church leaves is the subject of controversy. Needless to say, by Armageddon all of Adam's dead corruptible flesh will no longer exist.

Unless you are starting in Revelation 19 and reading in reverse order, Armageddon is the last mentioned event, not the first.

I believe the Day of the Lord is the day of Jesus' Coming, and it begins with Armageddon.