Messiah Yeshua (Jesus Christ) is NOT Almighty YHWH

[gadar perets]

This is not about you, and I have tried not to make it personal.

You failed. Almost every reply to me has been a personal attack because you have no Scriptural defense for your idolatry.

 

[mjrhealth]

Indeed. If we know Him, we know Him as Three (and more), and that they are not separate, but One. Not as a man and a woman are one, or as they have children, for we are lower than God. But as One, all in all, as higher and lifted up. For the difference we should look to the Spirit. For where a man goes, there he is. But where the Spirit goes, He goes and yet has not left. For this reason Christ said, "Lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the age."

Only as 3 no more.

 

[ScottA]

You failed. Almost every reply to me has been a personal attack because you have no Scriptural defense for your idolatry.

Yes, I suppose I have failed to show you what you could not see. Not my job.

 

[ScottA]

Only as 3 no more.

I agree that they all fall into just three. But that is the thing about men's doctrines. But of the manifold of scripture there are many, but men only see what they see:
The Bible Names Of God EL Table

 

[APAK]

One thing at a time...This He tells us was Him laying down His life that He may take it up again. But we know there is no life except in God. Paul explains what that quality of God was made visible in Christ, that men struggle with understanding and therefore resort to dividing what cannot be divide, in this way:

Romans 4:17
"as it is written, “I have made you a father of many nations” in the presence of Him whom he believed—God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did;"

...So, when He said that we (even Christ) were made in His image - He meant it literally, saying that prior to being born of God we do "not exist" except in image only. Therefore, when we read that Christ is "God with us" "the Way, the Truth, and the Life", it is not speaking of men, or even of Christ the Son, but of God. This is why He said that "God is the God of the living." Thus, we, and even Christ the Son, by God's own definition do not even exist, unless we are called. And if we are called, we are children, but if chosen, then God and One. As it is written, our "life is hidden with Christ in God."

1 John 5:20
"And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life."
As I have explained above, "form" means "image", meaning "those things which do not exist." But men have made a god out of an image.

Indeed. "And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."

ScottA:

Since I’ll be off-line for a bit I thought I would let you know your error in this verse (1 John 5:20) you believe makes Jesus = God.

It seems like you are wearing a tee-shirt that says, ‘Trinity or Bust.’

Let’s look at your I John 5:20 again shall we….

(1Jn 5:18) We know that whoever is begotten of God does not keep on in sin; but he that was begotten of God keeps himself, and the evil one touches him not.
(1Jn 5:19) We know that we are of God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.
(1Jn 5:20) And we know that the Son of God came, and has given us an understanding so that we truly know him that is true; and we are in him that is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life. (ALL NEV)

You know this is not the first time you have neglected to find the context of a verse or statement in scripture. You are quick to pluck out a word that suits your fancy and then to force our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ on or as God almighty again.

Two major reasons why your preaching is false:

1. Verses 18-20: It says that a believer born of God Almighty is kept from sin. The evil one has no power over them anymore.

It reiterates the fact that we know we are OF GOD ALMIGHTY, as the world is under the power of the evil one.

And finally, it says that because of the son of God, born of the flesh, Jesus gave us A TRUE understanding about GOD ALMIGHTY; because we are in his son Jesus Christ. Finally, it concludes with the study of sin, that this is the TRUE GOD (GOD ALMIGHTY) and the eternal life NOT Jesus Christ. Dig it!

2. Just because the pronoun ‘his’ for Jesus is the closest to the next noun, God, in the last sentence, DOES NOT make Jesus = God Almighty.

If we used this as a standing rule in all scripture we would have utter confusion.

The phrase “true God” is used 4x in scripture. Each time wait for it, it means GOD ALMIGHTY, the FATHER and never Jesus. See 2 Chronicles 15:3; Jeremiah 10:10; John 17:3 and 1 Thessalonians 1:9

Do you care about the context of scripture you read for meaning? I have to say a 'no' from what you have given me over the weeks.

Bless you,


APAK

 

[ScottA]

ScottA:

Since I’ll be off-line for a bit I thought I would let you know your error in this verse (1 John 5:20) you believe makes Jesus = God.

It seems like you are wearing a tee-shirt that says, ‘Trinity or Bust.’

Let’s look at your I John 5:20 again shall we….

(1Jn 5:18) We know that whoever is begotten of God does not keep on in sin; but he that was begotten of God keeps himself, and the evil one touches him not.
(1Jn 5:19) We know that we are of God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.
(1Jn 5:20) And we know that the Son of God came, and has given us an understanding so that we truly know him that is true; and we are in him that is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life. (ALL NEV)

You know this is not the first time you have neglected to find the context of a verse or statement in scripture. You are quick to pluck out a word that suits your fancy and then to force our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ on or as God almighty again.

Two major reasons why your preaching is false:

1. Verses 18-20: It says that a believer born of God Almighty is kept from sin. The evil one has no power over them anymore.

It reiterates the fact that we know we are OF GOD ALMIGHTY, as the world is under the power of the evil one.

And finally, it says that because of the son of God, born of the flesh, Jesus gave us A TRUE understanding about GOD ALMIGHTY; because we are in his son Jesus Christ. Finally, it concludes with the study of sin, that this is the TRUE GOD (GOD ALMIGHTY) and the eternal life NOT Jesus Christ. Dig it!

2. Just because the pronoun ‘his’ for Jesus is the closest to the next noun, God, in the last sentence, DOES NOT make Jesus = God Almighty.

If we used this as a standing rule in all scripture we would have utter confusion.

The phrase “true God” is used 4x in scripture. Each time wait for it, it means GOD ALMIGHTY, the FATHER and never Jesus. See 2 Chronicles 15:3; Jeremiah 10:10; John 17:3 and 1 Thessalonians 1:9

Do you care about the context of scripture you read for meaning? I have to say a 'no' from what you have given me over the weeks.

Bless you,


APAK

Apak and @gadar perets,

Your unpacking the scriptures is not wrong, but only for a time. Then it is wrong...and my packing them up again is then correct, for this is the way of the End. So, your question of context is just a matter of when you mean, not just the context under which the scriptures were written, which you now defend. But do not think I mean to say I have my own private interpretation, but rather the correct revelation for our time.

Rise, let us be going!

This sort of thing should be of no surprise to one who studies the scriptures, for there are many examples of precedence...such as Jesus explaining the reality or divorce to Israel after Moses had taught it differently for a time. Or the many times that Paul revealed a mystery and explained the greater meaning of a simple worldly context in a different light.

Shall we never stop rejecting those sent by God?

PS,

The greatest "context" is "the same." By this we know that Jesus is God:

Malachi 3:6
“For I the Lord do not change; therefore you, O children of Jacob, are not consumed."

Hebrews 13:8
"Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever."

 

[gadar perets]

This sort of thing should be of no surprise to one who studies the scriptures, for there are many examples of precedence...such as Jesus explaining the reality or divorce to Israel after Moses had taught it differently for a time.

Yeshua taught the same thing Moses taught concerning divorce; that it is only permissible in cases of sexual immorality.

The greatest "context" is "the same." By this we know that Jesus is God:

Malachi 3:6
“For I the Lord do not change; therefore you, O children of Jacob, are not consumed."

Hebrews 13:8
"Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever."

"Yesterday" to the writer of Hebrews does not refer to a time before he was born, but to his time as a flesh and blood man. He was not "Jesus Christ" before he was born.

 

[ScottA]

Yeshua taught the same thing Moses taught concerning divorce; that it is only permissible in cases of sexual immorality.

Well, that's just wrong.

"Yesterday" to the writer of Hebrews does not refer to a time before he was born, but to his time as a flesh and blood man. He was not "Jesus Christ" before he was born.

Now you are dodging with semantics. I could also say that Jesus was not younger when He was older, or that David was not a king before he was king...but both were "the same" person before.

So, what is your real agenda then - to stripe Jesus of His former glory, or that which He has now regained?

 

[gadar perets]

Well, that's just wrong.

Why?

Now you are dodging with semantics. I could also say that Jesus was not younger when He was older, or that David was not a king before he was king...but both were "the same" person before.

This makes no sense.

So, what is your real agenda then - to stripe Jesus of His former glory, or that which He has now regained?

He didn't regain glory. He received the glory prophesied of him. He did not have glory as a living being prior to his birth. He had glory in YHWH's plan of salvation which, when fulfilled, he received for the first time. For example, he was "the lamb slain from the foundation of the world" (Rev 13:8). That does not mean he was literally slain before his birth, but that he was slain in YHWH's plan of salvation. YHWH knew mankind would sin and devised a plan to restore him through Yeshua's death as a sin offering.

 

[brakelite]

brakelite just made a couple of posts on this forum and thread. He has a different spin on an area of scripture. We know each other’s differences. I will not start an argument or try to persuade him on these differences, TWO major differences (pre-existence of Jesus and the divinity of Jesus in earth) actually that may or may not divide us and suffer our hope in salvation and eternal life.

Hi APAK. I know you're not around at the moment so I don't expect a reply for a while. Now while it is true that I firmly believe in the pre-existent Jesus, I don't think you quite catch my view of the humanity of Christ. He was 100%human, absolutely. Even though he was the divine Son of God from eternity, he lay aside all his divine attributes in order to be the perfect example for us. If he at any stage used his own power to overcome, or for selfish use, his mission would have failed. The Life Jesus lived proved it possible for man to live a sinless life through faith in the power of God. The just shall live by faith.

 

[gadar perets]

Hi APAK. I know you're not around at the moment so I don't expect a reply for a while. Now while it is true that I firmly believe in the pre-existent Jesus, I don't think you quite catch my view of the humanity of Christ. He was 100%human, absolutely. Even though he was the divine Son of God from eternity, he lay aside all his divine attributes in order to be the perfect example for us. If he at any stage used his own power to overcome, or for selfish use, his mission would have failed. The Life Jesus lived proved it possible for man to live a sinless life through faith in the power of God. The just shall live by faith.

Getting back to the OP, do you believe the Son preexisted as YHWH?

 

[brakelite]

I am not Helen but would like to respond with my agreements and/or differences:

Probably we are close, if not the same, on our beginnings and direction.


At one time some years ago I always jumped at the opportunity to defend or project my own beliefs about the trinity. I have certainly back away from such an aggressive approach, but I am where I am and when someone sincerely wants to know why or I believe God wants me to get into it again well there I am again.

My only grounding in the trinity when I would have been considered a Trinitarian was the little that the Catholic nuns taught. It was very little. My devout Catholicism ended not long after moving from my home town and starting college. After being only a nominal Catholic for several years God called me to Him through a very set apart family who lived for God under a Oneness Jesus Only doctrine. I met them in 1974 and went into Oneness Jesus Only in 1976. I received the Holy Ghost, began to speak in tongues and at age 32 began to read the Bible for the first time in my life. Unlike the Catholics, they stressed strongly reading and studying the Bible.

The man who with his family won us [my wife and I] to God was not a minister per se but he did most certainly minister and teach continuously to anyone who saw him and heard him. Converting me to oneness was not difficult because I had never really been firmly attached to the trinity and I was hearing from God even if I did not understand what He really wanted. As I learned the Bible I also learned the Oneness Jesus Only doctrines. When I really began to get some of it in me I found myself already somewhat a part from their official stand. I guess that had always been true when I was an active Catholic as well... even though I certainly did not understand that at the time.

The UPC [United Pentecostal Church = the largest organized group of Oneness Jesus Only people] taught that you had to speak in tongues if you had the baptism of the Holy Ghost and without the baptism of the Holy Ghost you could not be saved. I took hold of that at the first when I really knew nothing at all, but as God led me I moved away from that but only shared my motion away from them with one brother who was fairly open in his view point and at least in a little trouble with them as a result.

An apparently very solid belief of the UPC was the need to be baptized by full immersion in water while someone spoke words over you following the pattern of Acts 2:38 [ as opposed to Matt 28:19]. It was a long time before I was led to understand why that was not so important.

A third apparently solid belief of theirs was that Jesus was it. That is, Jesus was the Father, and Jesus was the Holy Ghost as well as being the Son: Only One God with each of these being a "manifestation" of the One God: no trinity.

I left the One Jesus Only people after 11 years but it was a while before I really had enough of a definite idea as to where I was to be able to share it specifically with anyone. God was changing me.

In the past I have described myself as more of a twoness advocate, but that does not fit well either and I don't usually commit myself so definitely as that. It is not because I think it is completely wrong, but because telling others that is not always the most edifying thing to do. [Sometimes however it may be.] I do believe in the Holy Ghost, but not as a separate part or entity or person from the Father God.

I believe Jesus is "God", but in a sense which may offend some deeply steeped in their Trinitarian or Jesus Only views. My view is seen in the relationship of Joseph [the son sold into slavery] to Pharaoh as stated in this verse:

"Thou shalt be over my house, and according unto thy word shall all my people be ruled: only in the throne will I be greater than thou." Gen 41:40

As with Joseph, Jesus was made great, even made "God" or "god" [if the smaller letter instead of the capital makes a difference] because God chose to make him so, but he was not always so. I am not so set in my belief that I don't or won't listen to what others have to say on it, but over the years I have probably heard every argument and many when they have heard where I stand have been certain they to convince that their way was THE way.

Give God, who gives the increases, the glory!


What is impossible for God? Is God not in us?

quote]
They say Jesus had to be divine (as God or being God himself) without any scriptural support. I believe it is a lack of understanding of scripture and even a lack of faith to pray to the spirit for guidance and understanding. It takes patience and many years…

What some [many, most?] seem to believe is the God could not or would not create/make a man like Jesus who is like God [much like Adam was before he disobeyed?] but would be able to sin if he chose to do so... The first Adam did sin. The second one, Jesus, did not. Jesus was a man as we are with some differences. The differences were necessary because all of the other men ever born of woman were dead to God.

Does it take patience and many years? Perhaps! It did for me, but I would not presume that every other man is bound by my experience or my limitations... many of them probably self-imposed.[/QUOTE]
I think you and I are quite close in our current view of the Godhead. And like you, I am still willing to learn and adjust my views as the Spirit leads.

 

[brakelite]

Getting back to the OP, do you believe the Son preexisted as YHWH?

YHWH is the Father. Jesus is His Son. Two distinct personalities. Being begotten of His Father, and the express image of His person, the Son therefore possesses all the attributes of His Father, making Him equal in every respect except in rank. Like father like son.

 

[gadar perets]

YHWH is the Father. Jesus is His Son. Two distinct personalities.

Great! We agree.

Being begotten of His Father, and the express image of His person, the Son therefore possesses all the attributes of His Father, making Him equal in every respect except in rank. Like father like son.

Do you think being the express image of the Father is the result of being begotten or of being filled to the max with the Holy Spirit (the fullness of YHWH living in Yeshua)? I believe the latter. The former would be true if Yeshua was begotten as all other men are with the DNA of the father being part of him. Yeshua was not begotten in such a way.

 

[amadeus]

I think you and I are quite close in our current view of the Godhead. And like you, I am still willing to learn and adjust my views as the Spirit leads.

Give God the glory! Only He gives any increase that is given to anyone!

 

[ScottA]

Yeshua taught the same thing Moses taught concerning divorce; that it is only permissible in cases of sexual immorality.

Not the same at all:
Matthew 19:8
"He said to them, “Moses, because of the hardness of your hearts, permitted you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so."

This makes no sense.

A lot of things are not making sense to you. But my point was, that you cannot even see that even in the earthly life of Jesus (or David), what they were and what they became, does not change who they are. So, if you cannot see that of earthly things, then yes, you will not see the sense of it in heavenly things - as in the identity of Jesus, as "the same yesterday, today, and forever."

He didn't regain glory. He received the glory prophesied of him. He did not have glory as a living being prior to his birth. He had glory in YHWH's plan of salvation which, when fulfilled, he received for the first time. For example, he was "the lamb slain from the foundation of the world" (Rev 13:8). That does not mean he was literally slain before his birth, but that he was slain in YHWH's plan of salvation. YHWH knew mankind would sin and devised a plan to restore him through Yeshua's death as a sin offering.

Now you speak against Christ (anti) as if to say He is [not] "the same yesterday, today, and forever."

Look...you have picked out a context and defined it different than what is true of Jesus eternally, which is the way the world looks at everything. But it is not so with God. With God, all is eternal, and you have not accredited Jesus' eternity to Him, and this you have done against what the scriptures say of Him being "the same yesterday, today, and forever." Your snapshot world context and definition of Christ does not measure up to that of God's definition. He is right, and you are wrong.

 

[101G]

Addressing the OP only.

question, "How do you define the term (Son)?" as in Son of God.

 

[101G]

I could bombard you with all my Scriptures at once, but that would not accomplish anything except to make this a burdensome thread. The same holds true if you reject this teaching and bombard it with your proof texts. In the interest of being thorough and fruitful, please stick to one verse/passage at a time. My first passage is from Psalm 2.

Psa 2:1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?
Psa 2:2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against YHWH, and against His anointed, saying,
Verse 2 makes a clear distinction between YHWH and “His anointed” (Messiah Yeshua).

let's take a look at each of your verses. in verse 2 above, "His anointed", what kind of pronoun is "HIS"? a possessive pronoun, which signify "ownership" . so his anointed is "HIS" body, because one do not anoint Spirit.

second point, is not the Lord Jesus God's "OWN" arm? let's check the record. Isaiah 63:5 "And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me".

my "OWN" arm? own is used with a possessive to emphasize that someone or something belongs or relates to the person mentioned.

third Point, is it not the Christ who is God's OWN arm? Isaiah 53:1 "Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?

Isaiah 53:2 "For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

so clearly God "OWN" arm is God himself in flesh.

let's give a carnal example to understand a Spiritual concept. if I picked up a penny from off the floor who picked up the penny? the answer I did, for my arm, hands, and fingers are me as much as "MY" feet, ears ans nose. I wouldn't say my ear heard, no, I heard.

it was I who picked up the penny off the floor. I identify the arm, the leg, the mouth...ect.

so God who is a Spirit, by his "OWN" arm brought salvation unto himself.

after the OP answer thew question I pose, then I will reveal how the ARM of God was revealed.

PCY

 

[brakelite]

Great! We agree.


Do you think being the express image of the Father is the result of being begotten or of being filled to the max with the Holy Spirit (the fullness of YHWH living in Yeshua)? I believe the latter. The former would be true if Yeshua was begotten as all other men are with the DNA of the father being part of him. Yeshua was not begotten in such a way.

Great! We agree.


Do you think being the express image of the Father is the result of being begotten or of being filled to the max with the Holy Spirit (the fullness of YHWH living in Yeshua)? I believe the latter. The former would be true if Yeshua was begotten as all other men are with the DNA of the father being part of him. Yeshua was not begotten in such a way.

KJV Proverbs 30
4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?
KJV John 3
13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven....
16 ..... For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
My son is not an express image of me though he has my DNA. The Son of God is an express image of His Father because He is His Father's Son. Or children are not perfect reproductions of our selves, thank God. However, nothing God does is less than perfect. His son is indeed a perfect reproduction of everything the Father is.
KJV John 5
26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
The Life of the Son is the life of the Father. Self-existent eternal, immortal. Divine. And because it was a gift, enabled Jesus to give it up on our behalf. Authority to judge... Forgive sin... power to create... Worthy of worship(let all the angels of God worship him). Makes the Son equal to God in every single respect except in rank. Which explains why Jesus called his Father, his God. And why the Father called the Son, God. Hebrews 1:8.

 

[ScottA]

Addressing the OP only.

question, "How do you define the term (Son)?" as in Son of God.

"A chip off the old block" works.